• finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    In Batman’s defence, he doesn’t decide the tax policies and I’m pretty sure he is already an avid philanthropist and political donator for anti-poverty policy.

      • njm1314@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        And since policy doesn’t seem to have changed in the decades he’s been in that City you have to think maybe he’s okay with the status quo.

      • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Idk, the fact that the city is filled with wackos like Penguin, Joker, Twoface and their hundreds if not thousands of henchmen kind of alludes to an irresponsible, anti-tax and anti-government, voting populace.

  • Stern@lemmy.world
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    2 months ago

    Here is a short list of shit going on in Gotham at any given time, not including the wide array of psychopaths and supervillains doing shit at any given time:

    1. The insane asylum with the portal to hell (Depending on if you consider Living Hell canon or not.)
    2. The Lazarus pit in the city spewing chemicals into the water supply.
    3. All the other chemicals likely in the water supply from a wide array of sources, including regular pollution and goofy shit.
    4. The remnants of the evil warlock who was sealed under the city for centuries.
    5. The massive mafia presence and general corruption.
    6. The Illuminati that uses zombie soldiers.

    That is not shit proper taxation is going to resolve. You can’t protected bike lane away the zombie controlling Illuminati.

    • njm1314@lemmy.world
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      I mean two of those are pretty clearly regulation issues. Maybe if the city’s Regulatory Agencies weren’t so strapped for cash they’d be more able to address pollution and water safety issues. Also you can always build a new Asylum elsewhere but apparently they don’t have the funds for that I guess? It’s amazing have Bruce Wayne doesn’t use his philanthropy to build one, almost like he likes them being crazy so he has someone to beat up.

      • Stern@lemmy.world
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        I mean two of those are pretty clearly regulation issues. Maybe if the city’s Regulatory Agencies weren’t so strapped for cash they’d be more able to address pollution and water safety issues.

        See point 5.

        It’s amazing have Bruce Wayne doesn’t use his philanthropy to build one, almost like he likes them being crazy so he has someone to beat up.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wayne_Enterprises#Wayne_Foundation

        • njm1314@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          Your link did not address what I said so I’m not sure why you sent it to me. As for the fifth point no I don’t think that addresses it.

        • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          2 months ago

          A massive mafia presence (which is true for every city in the US, only the mafia lobbies the state reps) is something that can also be managed better with a more robust public works project by the government. We don’t even have to beat them up, just seize their assets when they’re caught doing crime.

          Sadly, actual solutions to real world problems are not as exciting as a flying man who punches things.

    • WolfLink@sh.itjust.works
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      2 months ago
      1. The Lazarus pit in the city spewing chemicals into the water supply.
      2. All the other chemicals likely in the water supply from a wide array of sources, including regular pollution and goofy shit.

      Fixing contaminants to the water supply is absolutely something proper taxes should be able to solve.

      • macmacfire@lemmy.ml
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        2 months ago

        Key word, Should. If taxes actually went where people say it does, it might. And even then, it’d also take a lot of funding outside of just taxes, not to mention someone to actually start doing stuff about with all that funding. Also note on that list is rampant corruption and criminal syndicates mingling with the government.

        • I think you underestimate the power of actual taxes, say if we taxed billionaires and corporations.

          Or you may be arguing, as Marx did in Das Kapital that democracy and self-government are incompatible with capitalism. With some qualifications, I’d agree.

          • macmacfire@lemmy.ml
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            I am absolutely arguing that. The rich in actual mid-to-south New York and elsewhere aren’t actually taxed, why would the rich in Gotham be?

            • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              Well in the case of Bruce Wayne, as an allegedly ethical billionaire, he’d pay his fair share of taxes wouldn’t he? Or he’d spend that money dressing as a bat and punching poor people.

              I think the Batman fiction depends on the notion of ethically rich. Heck, even the bible challenges the notion over fifteen centuries ago. 🐪🪡💰

              ETA: TBF variations of Robin Hood are aristocracy, as was the Scarlet Pimpernel, and I think Zorro was as well. So Bats is not the first rich superhero by far.

    • In that case, Dr. Strange or whoever should be sealing the hell-mouths. Batman face-punching the victims of all these effects is not helping.

      I grew up during the smog-alert era of the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles, exerting myself, walking home uphill from school (yes, the had to walk in snow from school story except in my case, it was smog and it was true). No number of batmen or tough-on-crime judges were going to fix that, and heck even the limited smog regulations on cars we have today do enough. (Though switching to unleaded gasoline certainly helped generations after mine by lessening the damage). Only public transit and tighter regs on cars is going to help that.

      Don’t justify Batman’s fists by saying there are extenuating pollution circumstances. The rogues gallery are the results of what comes down to poor urban planning and a superfluous layer of white-collar crime. If Batman was going after Pfizer and the Sacklers or Du Pont Chemical and PFOA manufacturers or all the private equity firms, then he’d be a hero. Otherwise, he’s a crazy rich dude who beats up on poor people and has writers who won’t think the problem through.

      I think the US has just outgrown the Batman fantasy. I’d hope so, at least.

    • ameancow@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      He could literally call up a couple folks he knows who have absurd, godly super powers to shut all of that down, or pick up the entire chunk of landmass those problems are stuck in and hurl them into the sun.

      Meanwhile, setting up huge social programs to raise the quality of life for every Gotham resident which would decentivize crime and the wacky crime lords wearing funny outfits and other gimmicks would suddenly find the city less profitable and harder to hire thugs.

      It would take a lot of time and resources, it would be challenging, but eventually it would make a difference enough to help the quality of life for millions of residents. More lives would be saved than a single incident involving a giant bomb being used to threaten a bank or some shit.

      edit: wild how much more response and engagement you get when you attack fictional characters than when you talk about real problems.

      • Stern@lemmy.world
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        He could literally call up a couple folks he knows who have absurd, godly super powers to shut all of that down, or pick up the entire chunk of landmass those problems are stuck in and hurl them into the sun.

        May as well ask why Mr. Fantastic doesn’t cure cancer, or other super geniuses don’t ensure no one ever goes hungry again. We both know the answer: Because the comic would end. Thinking about this shit too hard causes it all to fall apart. The ol’ Superman was a transitional energy source idea. Beyond that, if we’re applying the lens of “Just tax him properly” we can’t also apply the lens of “Just call Superman to eye laser the joker dummy.” Gotta pick a lane here.

        Meanwhile, setting up huge social programs to raise the quality of life for every Gotham resident which would decentivize crime and the wacky crime lords wearing funny outfits and other gimmicks would suddenly find the city less profitable and harder to hire thugs.

        Wayne has. Foundations in both parents names. Hires ex-cons on the regular. Wacky super criminals aren’t typically interested in profitability, Joker isn’t looking to make millions and retire. He’s criminally insane.

        • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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          I don’t understand what people don’t get about Batman villains being legitimately insane. You can’t just give Two-Face affordable housing and access to a food bank and expect him to become a model citizen

          • Maeve@kbin.earth
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            2 months ago

            You can give quality, comprehensive health care, including mental health. You can actually aim for rehabilitative services rather than retribution.

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              Again, this is fictional writing. Twoface would just kill them in a way that would get batman mad. I’m sure we all know what happened to the last psychiatrist who tried to help the joker…

            • starman2112@sh.itjust.works
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              What makes you think the Wayne Foundation doesn’t provide mental health support and rehabilitative services? If you think the Joker just needs therapy, then you severely misunderstand the basic premise of the franchise

    • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      Oh you’re saying we should tax wealth, and we should not tax work.

      For a second I thought you were saying “taxing wealth does not work” like a tribal. Few word sometimes do trick.

      • 9point6@lemmy.world
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        2 months ago

        Tax income no work

        Wealthy still get more wealth

        No wealthy get even less wealth

        Must tax wealthy not no wealthy

  • IninewCrow@lemmy.ca
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    Lol … but a fancy custom made billion dollar armored car, motorcycle, jet boat and jet aircraft is more sexy and looks more powerful.

  • minorkeys@lemmy.world
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    No, it wouldn’t. Gotham is thoroughly corrupt and the money would never have been used to do anything good.

  • mrgoosmoos@lemmy.ca
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    isn’t a big part of the whole setup that this would not help much? like Gotham is just too corrupt, whenever programs are set up to invest in the public, they’re mostly just stolen from.

    Wayne is a philanthropist who gives a ton of money back through his own programs, right? presumably better overseen than the government ones.

    I don’t know how much money of Wayne’s is actually used for philanthropy, but he can’t just give the city all his wealth because it’s too corrupt for it to be used well, right?

    • ameancow@lemmy.world
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      whenever programs are set up to invest in the public, they’re mostly just stolen from.

      I’m reminded of the time Walgreens reported they were raising prices and closing stores because of rampant crime, but later admitted they made it the fuck up.

    • But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      So why isn’t Batman beating up corrupt politicians and judges instead of crippling poor people who have no other opportunity to make money than to work for a villain?

    • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      presumably better overseen than the government ones

      That’s a particularly post-Reagan presumption, and is the product of the kind of deregulation that the Reagan administration spearheaded. In fact, government programs are especially good at fulfilling their roles, since the Pournelle motivation of survival of the department is actually a weaker diversion than the motivation of profit.

      We’ve seen plenty of examples, how California regions that had public power fared better during the Enron crisis in the aughts or how Medicare was stronger and yielded a higher rate of positive outcomes before it was privatized by the George W. Bush administration. A similar thing happened in UK in which the NHS got privatized and reshaped for efficiency over redundancy, creating long lines and more poor outcomes.

      Wayne has exactly the same kinds of right-wing biases that Andrew Carnegie did, and Bill Gates does, preferring to make decisions based on his own anecdotal experiences than based on data sets. Sure, he saved a kid from crime, and in the meantime more kids suffer from food precarity, from family precarity, from housing precarity than are getting pushed drugs and bullied by gangs. In fact, the gangsters are coming from the precarious environments of the first group.

      Batman is ultimately a fantasy of personal responsibility, that we should each be strong enough to bootstrap our fortunes, even though actual data shows most don’t, especially when there are extenuating factors like not being a non-disabled white dude with at least middle-class backing by family. Batman is glad to let everyone else that doesn’t fit into that category suffer.

      Granted DC can write what they want, which is why Batman can have a code vs. killing while still smashing the faces of half of Gotham. IRL bare-knuckle fisticuffs will actually kill, and Batman doesn’t pull punches.

      Rubber Bullets. Honest. – Batman, The Dark Knight Returns, Frank Miller, 1986

      • bufalo1973@piefed.social
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        2 months ago

        Batman was created as the reverse of Superman: light vs darkness, superpowers vs a human being, just a journalist vs a billionaire, …

        That’s why were Superman is an ideal of everything that’s good in humanity, Batman is the vision of the humanity not as a hero but as a vigilante.

        • Uriel238 [all pronouns]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          If you have a source on this hypothesis, getting into the heads of Bob Kane and Bill Finger, and if they ever talked about Batman’s origins and his original paradigm, I’d love to read about it.

          Still, I just don’t think they were aware how dangerous ordinary brawling was, especially as lead poisoning was epidemic and fueled the higher crime rates.

          Also, if you read 1950s era Superman, he’s a total dick. Jesus-Superman emerged from the 1978 movie with Christopher Reeve – the same source that gave us the crystaline Krypton and Fortress of Solitude

    • squaresinger@lemmy.world
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      Where does Wayne’s money come from?

      How many hours does Wayne’s day have that he can do millions or billions of dollars worth of actual work while still playing dress-up at night?

      Or does his money come from short-changing and underpaying his employees, while hiking the prices for his customers? Or does it come from using speculation and investment to make sure he gets rich off other people being underpaid and overcharged?

      How can he be a philanthropist when all his money comes from fleecing other people?

      • Wayne Enterprises is essentially Lockheed-Martin, so yes, short changing his customers (that is, the US Government) figures largely into his business model. So does promoting military adventurism and forever wars.

        And that also means assuring that kids in the slums don’t have access to opportunities other than the military.

  • unalivejoy@lemmy.zip
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    It only works when that money goes to the right place. With all the corruption in Gotham, that money probably goes straight into the politicians bank accounts.

  • DagwoodIII@piefed.social
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    In the Batman Year 1 comic the thing that makes the police believe there really is a ‘Bat-Man’ is when he attacks a fancy dinner party and warns Gotham’s movers and shakers that justice is coming for them, too.

    • bamboo@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      Yeah, it’s pretty clear Gotham was full of corruption from top to bottom, which pushed him into becoming Batman. Philanthropy would just fuel the corrupt politicians into funneling money to the crime bosses, and taking a cut. Probably if he started a soup kitchen and was on the ground getting people out of poverty, he would achieve improvement, but when the police, courts, and politicians are on the crime bosses payrolls, funding those institutions more will not solve Gotham’s problems

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        I vaguely remember some stories, he does do the whole non-profit thing, too. It’s still a little bit too pro-billionaire but yeah, in their setting it’s quite likely the government is too corrupt.

        Also he fucking funds other superheroes, so it’s a little hard to say what actually works in that crazy universe. I can’t imagine superheroing to be profitable.

        • DagwoodIII@piefed.social
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          In some of the Silver Age comics, Superman has a vast fortune from old Spanish treasure ships he can find deep undersea. Yet no one ever calls Supes on being a skinflint.

          [jk]

  • hakase@lemmy.zip
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    Huh, a post on Lemmy completely misunderstanding Batman. Must be a day that ends in “y”.

    • But_my_mom_says_im_cool@lemmy.world
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      Why isn’t Batman fighting corruption and beating up judges, cops and politicians? Cause he’s out crippling a dozen poor people who had no other way to make money than to work for the joker or whoever

      • RedFrank24@lemmy.world
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        He did fight corruption and beat up corrupt judges and politicians in his early career, but it doesn’t work. Gotham is corrupt on a cultural level, like Russia on steroids. There is nothing you can do to ‘fix’ Gotham. There is literally no incentive you can give them that will make it not corrupt. You could go “Everyone in Gotham gets $10,000,000! Free housing, healthcare, everything!” and the guy whose job it is to distribute that money would suddenly be $100,000,000,000,000 richer and exactly nothing would change.

  • decipher_jeanne@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    We are assuming that somehow if Wayn pays large sums of wealth to the government, the government wouldn’t just be their usual wasteful, corrupt, self serving self with said money. You get every current billionaire in the USA to pay a fair tax. Where do you think the money goes? Funding for food stamps or Lockeed-Martin?

    • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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      I think pretty much every study even made has shown taxing the rich and investing in the public reduce crime rates and poverty. It’s the reason the USA had a massive middle class before Reagan and has experienced massive wealth disparity today: differences in tax policy and public investment.

      • JakenVeina@midwest.social
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        Yes, but that’s not really the point. The point is that “taxing the rich” and “investing in the public” aren’t necessarily the same thing. Just cause the government is collecting money doesn’t mean it’s spending it responsibly. Especially in the (literally) comically-corrupt world of Gotham.

        • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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          I have absolute faith that any government willing to tax the oligarchs is also willing to spend it responsibly.

          For example, China is a shithole dystopian nightmare but even they provide food, education, and housing to the most vulnerable.

    • earthworm@sh.itjust.works
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      You’re assuming we’d stop at Bruce Wayne.

      The same people willing go after Batman are willing to go after Lockheed-Martin and every politician they paid for.

    • bamboo@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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      Also in the DC universe, the equivalent of Lockeed-Martin is Wayne Enterprises. There’s stories where Bruce is conflicted in making weapons, but nonetheless, his fortune is built on the military industrial complex.

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        So Bruce Wayne is somehow worse than freaking Tony Stark?

        Then again Stark is an inventor and comics-level genius who lacks a secret identity, so pivoting to another industry was way easier for him. Bruce Wayne probably can’t change his company too much without losing a ton of pull and drawing unwanted attention to himself, plus losing access to the gadgets he relies on.

        • hemko@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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          Didn’t Stark divest from weapons manufacturing to researching clean energy instead, after he got hit by that one bomb of his?

          I haven’t read the comics, just what I remember from the movies

          • Quetzalcutlass@lemmy.world
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            Yeah, that’s why I said worse than Stark. He pivoted away from supporting the Military-Industrial Complex when he realized it was hurting people, whereas Batman hasn’t.

            It’s just odd since Batman is supposed to have ironclad ethics, whereas Iron Man is famously a hypocritical ass (though much less so in the MCU than in the comics, from what I’ve heard).

            • phx@lemmy.world
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              Meanwhile, the DoD is like: “Hey, anyone else kinda wondering why these bombs, ammunition boxes, and rifles are all kinds bat-shaped. Wayne enterprises is weird”

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      Underfunding the government through tax cuts makes corruption more likely. The richer the rich are, the easier it is to manipulate the government for them. Why do you think so much money goes to Lockheed Martin? Who gets government contracts isn’t chosen at random, there are moneyed interests involved.

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      If the income tax graduations are steep enough then the billionaire class will optimize to minimize taxes by reducing their own income in favor of reinvesting in their business and employees. In theory. In reality I’m sure they’d find some way to squirrel it away while their employees apply for and get denied food stamps.

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    Men will LITERALLY construct an entire persona based around their phobias as a result of trauma over witnessing the murder of their parents during a mugging orchestrated by crime bosses and spend millions of dollars on toys and gadgets to act out revenge fantasies and calling it vigilante justice rather than go to therapy.