Not to disrespect people here but please don’t answer if you’re just looking to say a comment that doesn’t give a good explanation or context. Honestly I’m a bit tired of responses like “cause they’re corrupt” or “because they’re fascists”.
I’m hoping someone with experience in law enforcement or law can chime in and show what the actual laws are and why they could be skirting things. What ROE Ice agents might have. I’m also looking at why I don’t see any large law societies bringing these violations if there are any to the courts. I remember years ago there were entire law firms with staff dedicated to areas like this. Why is that not happening today?
Because city prosecutors won’t bring charges unless it’s a guaranteed win.
So even tho it happens on camera, and they could start at the top of the chain and work down applying pressure to find out identities to press charges…
They’re too scared of bringing charges in a case they might lose to even attempt to hold anyone accountable.
Our justice system has been fucked for decades, but Biden refused to fix it (because he literally “wrote” the bills that got us here) and trump wants a broken system to abuse it.
We can’t just keep letting Republicans break shit, then electing “moderates” who refuse to acknowledge there’s even an issue that needs fixed. We need people willing to fight, even if they don’t win 99.999% of battles. We need people who aren’t afraid to lose. Because they understand what happens if we abstain.
Quick edit:
Don’t forget how accurate the system was at identifying college students at protests despite them covering their faces too.
Anyone telling you a small piece of fabric over someone’s face means they’re impossible to be identified by law enforcement is lying because they think you’re dumb enough to fall for obvious bullshit.
Incredibly insightful. Thank you.
Is it a fantasy on my part that there’s some mythical law firm or society that looks for these violations? I always thought there were groups looking for federal agencies violating constitutional rights.
I’m one of the people worried about the face mask issue only because I fear that they’re also not keeping accurate records. I would love to see a lot more effort going into collecting and compiling as much evidence for any ice who are covering their face. When crowds form, don’t just worry about getting the event, instead get pictures of each individual from all angles. Upload it and share it. When the time comes there is a mountain of evidence to use.
Is it a fantasy on my part that there’s some mythical law firm or society that looks for these violations?
Yep.
That’s what the justice system is supposed to do.
The types of organizations you’re talking about in America, instead work on saving innocent people from our justice system. Or at least ensuring punishments are fair.
As far as I know (I don’t know everything) there’s virtually zero organizations with the goal of getting guilty people charged by the state/fed.
Not saying your idea about documenting is a waste. Just that it’s the equivalent of people using plastic straws while billionaires and AI data centers do irreparable damage.
If cities/states actually wanted to press charges, they’d identify with cell snoopers, or just send 20 cops with a warrant to a field office, or look at pay records. Get their identies, then drivers licence photos, start comparing to social media profiles, identify similar picture of kit.
There’s a hundred better/easier ways to identify them. And this is the type of thing AI can actually be used to speed things up. Any average sized city has the resources to identify every ICE agent in their city. They’re just too chicken shit to escalate to that, out of fear ICE will retaliate personally.
So they pretend that tiny piece of fabric over half a face is just unbeatable.
It doesn’t matter if there are entire battalions of lawyers looking for it. Persecutors have the monopoly on getting people charged with crimes.
The other question you can ask is: why isn’t the entire press on fire complaining about government workers committing crimes all day over all over the country?
Persecutors have the monopoly on getting people charged with crimes.
I had to look this up and I’m surprised that in most states private prosecution is barred. In the UK it’s still legal, if expensive and uncommon.
Ouch, I never even considered the idea of private prosecution in criminal courts. Looks like a remedy that is worse than the disease.
Who owns the press and who benefits from the crimes? This is why there were laws preventing media consolidation and extensive corporate ownership before they were dismantled over the last 50 years.
The police were doing it during BLM every day as well. They’d flood residential areas with tear gas that would seep into random people’s homes with immunity. Local police is one of the most left-leaning areas of the country, and they still let their gangs get away with that kind of violence.
“Local” police…
In virtually every metropolitan PD, a lot of the cops don’t just live in subdivisions, they live way outside of town.
It’s easy to abuse a crowd when it’s not neighbors and people that know you.
The rule of law has collapsed.
It is like the scene in Mars Attack! when the alien is running around with the language translator repeating “WE COME IN PEACE” while disintegrating humans left and right with their space pistols.
They will say whatever they have to while physically doing whatever they want.
Until we stop THEM ALL
The increasing militarization of police, and their use of “less than lethal” weapons including rubber bullets and CS gas is one of the things that was heavily discussed by the mainstream after the death of George Floyd. So was the tactics used by police, like ketteling peaceful protesters. But it was a problem before Rodney king was murdered too.
There has been a long buildup of Americans losing their rights to protest and freely express themselves even before the 9/11 attacks and Bush declaring a “war on terror” or Regan declaring a “war on Drugs”. Both of which were really just ways to militarize police forces against the communities they were supposed to serve.
Remember the whole, “Are you or have you ever been a Communist?” time of American history. You weren’t allowed to freely express yourself as an American then either.
Really, it could be argued that our “inalienable rights” were just some gentlemen’s agreement that were never really ours, and many actively got punished and even murdered for exercising those rights.
Really, to answer your question, I don’t think anyone alive today ever experienced a time where it was ok to majorly disagree with the American government. And after decades of letting police do really whatever they wanted and giving them military equipment, no one really thinks this is illegal because this is the precedent.
They are “allowed” because their actions no longer have consequences. None.
A question wrongly asked
From watching the video the ROE appears to allow for engagement for crossing the blue line onto federal property or interfering with traffic leaving the compound.
Thank you for being the only person in the thread to answer the question.
That’s something I didn’t actually consider. But should be clearly marked if that’s the case in that area
Not sure what it says, but I think you have the closest explanation to why it is allowed. I meant by marked is that there should be something saying “cross the line, get peppered”
Welcome to fascism, where the rules are made up and the crimes don’t matter (unless your enemies do them, then they really really matter).
Honestly I’m a bit tired of responses like “cause they’re corrupt” or “because they’re fascists”.
I feel this so much. Not only is it not productive, it short circuits thoughtful discussion that could actually be productive. So much so it makes me suspicious 🤔
While you’re discussing it they just kidnapped another family.
Yeah the “intelligent” community loves finding out why someone is currently stabbing them repeatedly in the torso.
But if it’s not wrong, then that is a useful answer. If the people who are committing crimes are a military force that is willing to use force to avoid being held accountable by law… questions that depend on the rule of law being in effect are missing the point. Laws need to be enforced by some kind of superior force to the people being subject to the law. Ideally that force is mutually agreed upon by society through some political process. Modern democracies are supposed to base that legitimacy on democratic will restrained by constitutional limitations. But clearly that doesn’t strictly need to be the case for a state to operate. The most base level of political legitimacy for the use of force to govern is the mere unwillingness of the population to use their own violence to counter it. If things ever got bad enough, the thing that keeps that in check is ultimately organized resistance and revolution.
Going back to liberal democracy though, even with all of our theoretical restrictions on power, ultimately all of that only works based on some combination of the government believing in and choosing to follow those principles and if all else fails… revolution. Just think about how historically significant the first ever peaceful transition of power was. The people with all the guns just decided not to use them to keep their power. Think about how crazy it is that some of the people in the government wanted George Washington to become king and he was just like “Nah. Pass. That’s not how we’re gonna do things anymore.”
If they decided otherwise… what was a judge going to do about that? Write a strongly worded opinion paper? Then what? In order for anything to happen either the gov needed agree or enough other people with guns would have to organize to do something about it. Even if you have some police force to represent the courts independent of the main government, that police force needs to be full of people who agree with the rule of law and they have to be strong enough to enforce that court decision.
So getting back to our situation… if the main government and the military and police under its direct control has decided that the rule of law isn’t important to it, then even if you can point to the laws they’re breaking and get the courts to rule against them… you need to answer the question of who is going to make those court decisions a reality. If it isn’t going to be ICE, the US Military, or any of the other organizations engaged in the illegal activity, then it needs to be someone else and at that point it’s a war and the laws don’t really matter anymore anyway.
So that’s the decision tree for this question. If you think the government isn’t entirely run by fascists, then we can discuss the legal question. If your answer is that the government is corrupt and fascist, then answering the legal question is producing answers that are inherently incorrect and misleading. If you do genuinely believe the opposite, then yes, just giving the fascist answer is incorrect and misleading. In either case, the path we go down, if incorrect, leads us away from the more productive conversation. But the question of which of these two answers is the correct starting point for the interesting and necessary discussion.
The ice Gestapo doesn’t follow laws
I was in the CJ field for 10 years, which opened my eyes to a lot. I know you think “they’re fascists who ignore the law” is reductionist or untrue, but that is literally it. It is that simple. It is also not new, regular law enforcement in the US has been exactly like this for pretty much our entire history.
When you break the law, and you have powerful deeply ingrained cultures and institutions backing you that will look away or refuse to apply the law to you, then the law effectively does not exist. Laws are social contracts that are invented entirely by us, and literally do not exist if not enforced. The universe does not care. There is no karmic balance that steps in to even things out.
I think many are just ignoring this or trying to rationalize it some other way, because it is terrifying to come to terms with when you are told your entire life that these institutions, police and courts and laws and checks and balances, are in place to protect you. Law enforcement in the US has fascism and nationalism baked into its core, and most of them are actively wanting what ICE is doing. Many law enforcement are in their ranks or are assisting in ways that most people don’t even realize. And beyond that, the rest of our judicial and political systems are also being manipulated or just blatantly ignored to pave the way for this.
Ultimately the question being posed to the US at this point is, what happens when the people in power do not care or feel empathy, except for their own goals, and there is no sufficient opposition. There are no easy answers to this. When two opposing forces collide, one or the other has to give in some way. ICE has had basically zero consequences for their actions, despite how blatantly illegal and wrong they are. So far, their side is applying more force and it shows.
But CSI told me cops are the good guys.
Well said. Much of the overzealous action by LEOs seen since the ICE immigration operation kicked off is notably similar to that seen during the Civil Rights era in the U.S. They can run people down in the street, club the everloving shit out of them, break their wrists and shoulders during arrest, and kick their feet up at home later that night without a thought of concern about catching charges.
The manner in which demonstrators have been engaged strikes a similar chord to that same mid-century era, where hippies/beatniks/peaceniks could be fucked up and railroaded any number of ways without a hint of worry about blowback (unless their parents were loaded, of course). Nothing meaningful will happen to make them scale back their abuses, legal or otherwise, maybe not even once Democrats are back in office.
The Democrats have no interest in prosecuting cops because they’re all on the same team. It’s Capitalists vs Us, and the sooner we all realize that, the sooner we can actually start improving the world.
The democracy is there to waste your time. If your step out of line you will be treated like you’ve been seeing them treat black and latino communities this whole time. Why did you allow them to do that even if it was legal? A question that no doubt affronts you.
*hispanic.
ALLOW them? Lol.
Yes, like German citizens during the holocaust allowed it. Like you just sat on your ass throughout Israel’s genocidal campaign and continued to reproduce the political system and lifestyle that enables neocolonialism. I would estimate 80% of the US public is totally complicit. This is obvious.
You’re still salty from your other thread, I see. That’s a mute.
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What if we just coordinate better and became a bit more strategic and forward thinking.
I mean these people are obsessed with image. They are dependent on the public for that image. We are the public, we have coordinated to make cat videos popular ergo …
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they effectively have immunity under dumpy.
Honestly love the first amendment in the US. That video is gas!
