As posted about recently in !meanwhileongrad@sh.itjust.works and !fediverselore@lemmy.ca it seems that @nutomic@lemmy.ml’s stance on transphobia has not changed and his apology only seems to be that he was sorry he got caught and that someone leaked the DM. This is concerning for an admin of Lemmy.ml and the leader of the project. I don’t think this means we should stop using Lemmy, it’s open-source and even if they embed donation links, they can be stripped out in our fork. But it does make me wonder if we should consider defederating lemmy.ml on that merit. Since if they hold such views on trans issues, it’s very likely they won’t have any desire to act on that type of transphobia being expressed on their instance.
I know that Lemmy.ml has and does handle overt transphobia well, but I can’t speak to their ability to handle less overt or thinly veiled transphobia, and this incident doesn’t inspire much confidence either.
Edit: Since some people haven’t seen the original. I decided to include it here. Warning, it contains transphobia, if you don’t want to see that, don’t open the spoiler.
CW: Transphobic talking points
I’d really like to hear Feedback from Blahaj’s local community on this, I’m not as interested in outside opinions here so please try to refrain from top-level commenting if you aren’t from lemmy.blahaj.zone (I will ignore them if you comment anyway from a remote instance).
This feels like cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic. Its always this one screenshot, of a comment made in response to something else that I have never seen posted any of the times this has been brought up. A response without context is kind of sus.
Being uninformed or misinformed is not bigotry. There was a time when I probably would have said something similar, before I learned more, and knew better. I don’t think this is strong evidence of a real issue.
Until the point that he makes more questionable statements about trans or lgbtqia2s+ people, this is fine as far as I’m concerned. I don’t think what I have seen so far is actionable.
Edit: from reading Ada’s comments in this thread I endorse her stance.
From the very strict enforcement standards of this instance, the DM was enough to warrant a ban for nutomic, but not enough to warrant defederation for ml. That seems fine until or unless more information comes to light.
It’s far worse than this. Grad is a NAFO supremacist demonic sub that has nothing to do with trans rights, and their supremacist brainwashing agenda should always be resisted, for its deep nazi militarist roots, and no one who is not banned from that cesspool should ever be taken seriously.
In specific text exchange, the persecution target’s crime is their supposed responsibility to correct the pigfucking stalker with expressing trans maximalism “of course men should be able to cheat at women’s sport by wearing a dress”. Disagreeing with that statement is objectively not anti-trans, and Grad supremacist brainworm circlejerk, is simply deflecting from no incriminating content whatsoever, other than justifying circular hatred.
ummmm… what?
this discussion is about lemmy.ml, not lemmygrad.
If you have anything relevant to my previous comment please say so. What you typed is incoherent.
If you have information about the exchange post a screenshot, and stop the insults and name calling.
cherry picked examples to try and frame nutomic as being transphobic.
I’m supporting that statement. I don’t need different screenshots from OP’s to point out that OP is showing a nothing burger.
Also, never seen lemmygrad. Just the NAFO troll site crossposted.
In that case, who or what do you mean by “grad?” And what is NAFO? I’m probably missing something.
meanwhileongrad is aNAFO militarist empire supremacist group. Unrelated shit disturbing nonsense is exemplified by this specific trolling.
yea let’s defederate.
somthin somthin terf-tankie-whatevr… somthin along those lines… i dun evn kno whad those words mean
- TERF = Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminists (transphobia)
- Tankie = Apologists for outright oppressive, murderous regimes like Putin’s Russia and North Korea
Tankies showing us how close to right wing conservatives they really are. How unusual /s. Makes one look at this particular crowd’s big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently…
But he used the word bourgeoisie. That means it’s Marxist and left-wing. /j
Makes one look at this particular crowd’s big push to not vote in elections against a wannabe bigot fascist a little differently
Maybe for some, but I’ve been saying for over a year that the “leftist” “don’t vote” crowd was actively shooting the cause the supposedly believe in right in the leg.
Nothing says “I believe in leftist ideals and the plight of the proletariat” like actively promoting pathways that are explicitly letting the Nazis take power.
I heard someone describe tankies as alt-left. E: haha you tankie fucks.
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Yes. There should be no handwringing over this. If admins/mods for an instance are bigoted, fash, or other such things then they deserve to get defederated as they will allow many bad things and spread their hate. It is best to isolate them as they want to spread their hate and convert more people, that’s their entire goal.
Multiple states: “Let’s literally use the force of law to ban trans people from existing.”
This jackoff: “Hmmm, I just don’t know if the bourgeoisie is really against trans rights! It’s so hard to tell!”
I’m not going to weigh in on the defederation issue. I don’t use enough .ml communities to know how this guy’s views reflect in the moderation policies of the instance. But fuck him in particular.
Generally .ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alts.
This is just petty splitter bullshit, same as always…
But I also block .ml because their mods policies annoy me.
ml is pretty trans rights, because their mods are hexbear alt
Hexbear has had its fair share of issues with sexism and objectification of trans women. There was a pretty big upset a while ago where people spoke up about being harassed, the community’s reaction to it was pretty shitty.
That’s ironic considering a lot of them said that sexism and allowing chasers is what led them to hexbear, and why they avoided blahaj.
Not saying what they’re saying is true.
My experience is that hexbear only care about trans rights when criticizing “west”. As soon as China or Russia are discussed, they turn surprisingly silent.
YMMV
Yeah that’s probably fair, on a global political level. Still leaves them pretty rabid in terms of what they’ll let you say without banning you though.
I swear I’ve seen this exact comment in a similar thread some time ago. I think your take is flawed or even disingenuous. We all know that trans issues are manufactured outrage. Which is what nutomic appears to be saying.
This whole controversy with him reeks of comment baiting and using an off the cuff comment in order to undermine the Lemmy project. It’s no coincidence that this thread came up right after the devs say that they are running out of funding.
Why is it suddenly time to defederate with ml when this happened months ago.? The only real negative thing he said is about trans sports, but honestly I don’t think the lgbtq community gave a hot damn about highschool and college women’s sports before.
Oh, fuck off with your bigoted bullshit that “we all know”.
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This what you are doing here is called sealioning and you need to stop. You were denying the reality of transphobia and the struggles of trans people and you got called out for it. You need to take the feedback that you did something wrong and check yourself, they don’t owe you an explanation of their identities and experiences. You are an outsider in this safe-space for trans people.
Again with the bullshit intentional misrepresentation of what I said. It’s sus as hell that there’s such a push to destroy Lemmy when it’s one of the few safe places for trans people online.
You probably work for meta or musk or reddit trying to kill the project.
You probably work for meta or musk or reddit trying to kill the project.
Ah yes, because bad-jacketing users is totally a way to make you seem credible. Fuck off dude, this is a trans friendly space. Who do you think you are coming here telling trans people they are “just being reactionary” then sealioning and bad-jacketing users when they call you out on your bullshit.
I’d really hate to lose !linux@lemmy.ml honestly, it’s the largest community for Linux stuff, and a big part of what I spend my time on Lemmy doing. While the stuff Nutomic has said is awful, I’d also really like to see instances of moderation on lemmy.ml that are problematic/transphobic before making the call to defederate.
They do indeed have a history of problematic moderation in general, though I’m not sure about how much they let thinly veiled transphobia slip there. There’s not much of it to begin with and can be difficult to spot at first.
I’d really hate to lose !linux@lemmy.ml honestly
I pointed out in the other comment two alternatives to the Linux comm. !linux@programming.dev and !linux@sh.itjust.works, both have decent activity and could be more active if more users started posting.
They both have tens of thousands of less users. As for the moderation, I know they can be bad at that, and difficult to appeal to, but I’ve yet to see anything transphobic.
They both have tens of thousands of less users.
Subscriber wise they are vastly different in size, MAUs aren’t as drastic. Which is largely what matters.
!linux@programming.dev is within striking distance of beating !linux@lemmy.ml in MAUs
Comm Subscriber count is misleading and can easily be full of dead accounts
That’s fair, and you’re right that it’s possible, but as well it’s possible all those accounts come online in a 3-4 month rotation.
The more important point for me though is whether or not there are transphobic moderation instances. I know they can be really abrasive, I’ve seen the PTB threads, but none of that seems to have been major instances of transphobia that I can tell. I’m all for defederation in those cases when admins refuse to moderate transphobic dogwhistles and the like, I was super supportive of the feddit.uk defed for example. But one admin on a team of many saying something transphobic that’s a personal view doesn’t quite reach that threshold for me. Especially on a larger instance where I think we have to consider the ramifications of fracturing the community a lot more in my opinion.
Nutomic is a transphobe, but the rest of the admin/mods I haven’t noticed any issue on. And if that was the only reason to consider defederation, id be right there with you. But Nutomics bigoted stance is really just one of other major issues with .ml. here’s a post I made a few days ago recaping those issues: https://lemmy.world/post/29072279
If there is content on defederated instances users want access to they can make accounts on other servers.
Not to automatically assume that these users want to see hateful content, but as generally small that Lemmy is, some users might feel that defederating from such a massive server not worth the lack of content and communication. Blahaj does great with protecting trans users I appreciate this, but I would suggest to consider the overall health of Lemmy overall and what such a drastic action might have on their own community. Could it results on the communities activity to decline due to less interaction?
There might be some bad communities and some other good ones on lemmy.ml, with activity and if the largest servers are defederated, now users will have to make multiple accounts on other servers and hope that they can see certain content, when it use to be if they wanted to make multiple accounts just because.
This looks like a fight trying to be picked, not something to defederate over.
I never really liked his ideas, trans-related or not, but why the hell was he saying all of that just for a (presumably) message about a Firefox plugin???
I’m not on my blahaj account, but I can copy/paste there if you’d prefer. Just seemed pointless when I use the same user name to switch over.
But I’m mainly giving some background to the whole matter, rather than primarily “voting” about defederation.
It’s interesting that nutomic wants to get all het up after asking for donations to lemmy development.
That’s largely why they’ve been so active in comments lately. They can’t seem to keep from expecting people to pay them as individuals the develop lemmy, while also not being willing to at least be clear about where they stand.
And that’s what the donation requests are about. They’re not bringing in enough to develop full time. And that’s an important thing, having full time developers on a project like this. What they don’t seem to get is that they’re not just asking us to pay for full time developers, they’re asking us to pay them. They aren’t figureheads or managers, so it isn’t some kind of collective where you can point to other members of the dev team and say “well, maybe those two are unpleasant, but at least the rest aren’t bigoted”
Which, afaik, dessalines has never publicly been bigoted. He can be a smug asshole sometimes, but so can I, so there’s only so much complaining I can do there. But nutomic is a different issue, and this screen shot perfectly encapsulates how.
Donations would go into both of their pockets for their work, and they do deserve to be paid for that. Even jerks get to make a living. But we all get the choice as to whether or not we’re a customer or not. Me? My double digit yearly open source budget is going to people that at least have the sense to have never shot their mouths off with bigoted bullshit. Lemmy is an amazing thing, and the world needs it. I just can’t directly support a bigot. I can’t, and won’t do it.
I wouldn’t hire on someone to fix my roof if they had a damn maga hat on, why would I give money to someone that is not only just as much of a bigot, but is also hyper authoritarian? I know hiring someone vs contributing to a project isn’t a 1:1 equivalency, but the principle is.
Donations to then also fund .ml. And if anyone wants to donate like that, it’s none of my business. It’s just important that it be known that you can’t donate granularly. You donate, .ml gets some operating costs covered, dessalines gets a chunk, and nutomic gets a chunk.
And that’s where this comes from. The discussion in the screen shot is fallout from that. Nutomic still holds the same views they always have, but wants people to ignore that when donating. Which is fine!
As far as defederation goes, all I can say is that, while I have had unpleasant runins with both of them, I’ve never been permanently banned from .ml, or any of its communities. Individual communities there can, and do, enforce anti-bigotry rules with no interference from admins. But, there are no specific instance rules regarding transphobia in particular.
Again, this is pretty much just added background for anyone that hasn’t the time to go digging for the context of the screen shots.
give away for free
I’m assuming this is under one of the several threads soliciting donations? Just because it doesn’t require payment to use doesn’t absolve them of any problems people might have that would keep them from handing over money in other capacities.
It’s a bad argument yet devs always seem to want to hide behind it. Free things do not allow someone or somemany to just support horrific things and everybody else has to be okay with that.
Admin Ping for @ada@lemmy.blahaj.zone to weigh in on this issue with her thoughts and opinions on the matter.
Nutomic was banned from this instance approximately 9 months ago when I first become aware of his stance. However, it’s not something I plan on defederating over unless it becomes clear that the instance as a whole is not acting on transphobic content or unless it becomes clear that the community strongly believes that we should defederate.
Yeah that’s why I decided to make the thread sooner rather than later. I wanted to get the community’s opinions on it and see what they think. I do think there is the risk of Nutomic and others refusing to action transphobic rhetoric similar to his own if it seems “respectful” and “logical”.
If that starts happening, we will defederate. But he doesn’t seem to be standing in the way of the rest of the instance staff from dealing with it as far as I can tell.
lemmy devs being bigoted it’s more likely than it think
i really wish there was a valid lemmy alternative software or wish postmill implemented atproto or ap :(
seen a couple of TERFs get bullied off of my fedi TLs lately and it warms my heart
