A bit of chip history: Taiwan Semiconductor (the current pseudo-monoply in cutting edge processor making) rose as Taiwan the country transitioned from a dictatorship to democracy.
They got state funding, and support for thier business as trade opened up. To simplify, it was like a mix of hyper free-trade capitalism and technocratic command economy/socialism no one on either end of political spectrum would like. And it worked! It’s still working.
The CHIPS act in the US was a baby step in that direction, which (even with Intel’s incredible corporate dysfunction) got me excited.
…And that is basically the opposite of what Trump is proposing.
Basically, take away Intel/Micron/IBM subsidies and tax the shit out of their existing overseas business. And deregulate them instead of directing them.
In other words, drain their capital, and give them free reign to think short term as their manufacturing circles the drain.
To be fair to Trump, most business people do not grasp how indescribably capital/research intense processor manufacturing is. Investment is in the many billions, planning takes decades and is extremely technical, and dependent on economic and research forecasts. They have to be forced to think long term, given truckloads of cash to do it, and not get derailed by quarterly earnings targets and cutting long-term projects on the vine for quick cash.
But still… this is like the worst thing he could have done, IMO.
Yes, we all know the most successful economic endeavors are funded by taxpayers. Then leeches come in to steal the profits from the public and useful idiots are all-to-proud to support them.
Just look at how Iceland has the cheapest electricity on the planet; it’s because they built their infrastructure using public money without an incentive to maximize profit.
That’s not what I’m implying.
TSMC would not have thrived if it was purely nationalized, and could have easily collapsed into capitalist hell.
For the processor fab business, specifically, the ideal conditions seem to be some kind of bastardized hybrid. Samsung and China Semi are not far from ‘hybrids’ either, while the corpses of pure extremes (GloFo, Intel, the Soviet’s and modern Russia’s computing efforts, DARPA projects, other pure government efforts and some RISC ones) are littered everywhere.
Intel was heading towards a state-supported hybrid, but apparently not anymore (and is now barreling into capitalist collapse).
The other part of what I’m saying is this does not necessarily apply to, say, the hotel business like Trump is channeling, where short term maneuvering and branding pay off more. Nor engergy generation, which is different too (and probably should be nationalized in such a geothermal-heavy place like Iceland).
In which nation is energy generation not using vast natural resources at huge initial outlay where companies have a boner for monopolising or cartels and exploiting scarcity to drive up prices?
Side note: DARPA’s TCP/IP networky thing seems to have had some future in it!
CHIPS Act. Yet another major Biden win that gets overlooked in favor of shitting on him.
Biden did a lot of great stuff but the USA would rather live in a reality TV show from hell while marching towards authoritarianism apparently. Oh wait, they don’t understand any of that shit because half of them can’t fucking read.
Where are the Trump-Epstein files?
It’s fucking tariff roulette again. And so it will be for the next 3.5 years. Stupid cunts. Remember to kick a republican in the nuts.
*capitalist
they ALL do this. they just market it differently. profits are at record highs and have been for YEARS. while working class people suffer and die.
Next 3.5 years if we are lucky.
The last 6 months have been the longest decade of my life.
You won’t ever need to vote again
Luck is also a component in how long Trump lives ; though he’s not that old.
OK, I’ll say it differently - luck is also a component in how long Putin lives, and that’s likely less. When he dies, there’s gonna be change. In USA too. In Russia - maybe not for the better immediately, but that will be a power transfer, which hasn’t happened since 1999. Even if to someone of his daughters.
I don’t subscribe to any of stupid theories of “Kremlin towers’ balance”, “businessmen vs patriots” and such, but the point stands, and the previous power transfer, from Yeltsin to Putin, despite them being the same faction, changed a lot and fast.
Which could mean some of the blackmail material leaking, or the direction of blackmail changing, or other ties being restructured. Which would pull the rug from many of Russia-aligned parties in the west, and it would be interesting to see whether Democrats or Republicans are affected more, in case of US, and whether local alt-right parties or the orderly centrists in EU are affected more. The common belief is that it’s the latter in the US and the former in the EU, but I think we’ll be surprised.
Now, Russia is small compared to other parties, but big enough to make waves in case of such an event.
Americans won‘t own anything and they‘ll be happy.
Tariffs will grow until morale improves
Wouldn’t this only affect goods manufactured in the USA? If a finished product containing chips from say, Europe, were to land on USA shores it would only have a 15% tariff right?
Why does trump hate American manufacturing?
I’m guessing the chip in the finished product would be taxed separately, otherwise it would be trivial to dodge the tariff (just package the chip in a different “finished product” and move it to a US-made product).
I’m guessing the chip in the finished product would be taxed separately, otherwise it would be trivial to dodge the tariff (just package the chip in a different “finished product” and move it to a US-made product).
You’d guess wrong. Welcome to the wonderful world of tariffs and import/export controls!
I wouldn’t call it a trivial dodge because the act of building the tariffed good into another product takes time and resources at the origin side, then again at the destination side to undo the manufacturing steps. However, sometimes its worth it to a company. There are lots of examples of companies doing exactly this.
Ford Transit Connect cargo vans were made in Turkey. Ford wanted to import them to the USA. However, there was a tariff placed on vehicles for commercial use, so Ford installed cheap passengers seats in the back and imported them as passenger vehicles. As soon as the vehicles would arrive onshore in the USA, Ford would rip the cheap seats out, and sell them as commercial vehicles.
Do you have examples of individual components being swapped to avoid tariffs?
For PC parts, it would be very inexpensive to make a cheap mobo, chassis, and UX. E.g., they could put a high end server CPU or something into one of those small handhelds (like Anbernic devices), and then move it to an actual server in the US. Those chips can run more than $1k, while those Anbernic devices tend to run a couple hundred, so the small overhead would absolutely be worth being taxed at 15% instead of 100%.
Surely regulators have learned from the Ford Transit thing…
Do you have examples of individual components being swapped to avoid tariffs?
I don’t, but these new tariffs don’t match what we’d had before.
The closest I can think of is one scheme to avoid aluminum import tariffs. A company cut bar stock into longer lengths and did the cheapest/fastest/worst job of spot welding them together into the shape of a finished good (a chair or table, can’t remember). The “chairs” were imported, then the receiving company simply broken the simple spot welds and fed the again-bar-stock into manufacturing processes.
For PC parts, it would be very inexpensive to make a cheap mobo, chassis, and UX. E.g., they could put a high end server CPU or something into one of those small handhelds (like Anbernic devices), and then move it to an actual server in the US.
It would be cheaper, but not inexpensive. This would require setting up an entire manufacturing assembly line to create and assemble the carrier product, and a reciprocal dis-assembly line on the other side to reclaim the desired CPU part. Its doable, but quite a bit of additional expense when the straight non-bypass method is a robot removing a CPU from a tray and inserting it directly into the finished product. Would it be worth it? Potentially yes! That’s why I made my first post here on the topic.
The “chairs” were imported, then the receiving company simply broken the simple spot welds and fed the again-bar-stock into manufacturing processes.
Lol. That’s basically the same thing as I suggested for PC part swaps.
Thanks for the example. Let’s see what happens w/ the tariffs and how industry responds, because I highly doubt datacenters would be happy paying 2x for their parts.
The existing tariffs somehow exclude chips or phones/computers with chips in them. This would be a separate category, like metals.
It’s a tax of 100% on chips being imported to the USA, having been manufactured elsewhere. The idea is that it should force companies to set up their own chip manufacturing in the USA. But that’s expensive and slow to do, and requires a lot of specialized engineering talent, so US-based electronics companies will somehow have to survive through years of paying twice as much for the chips they build into their products. This will mean significant price increases for Americans buying electronics, as the unavoidable costs are passed on.
He’s been trying to prevent the US from manufacturing their own chips, so that can’t be the real goal…
From that article:
The comments were Trump’s strongest criticism of the bipartisan CHIPS Act to date. “We don’t have to give them money,” Trump said, suggesting that avoiding new tariffs would be enough to convince them to build U.S. factories.
I think that, insofar as Trump has a coherent view, that’s it: he doesn’t want to give companies money to establish chip manufacturing in the USA, because he thinks it can be done instead by bullying them with tariffs so they are forced to fund it themselves if they want to stay in business.
I’m not saying that’s a wise view. There’s a good chance he just ends up creating more economic problems at home. And it’s in part driven by his desire to get revenge on Biden by undoing everything he did, rather than a rational appraisal of economics.
Huh? No, it’s the opposite. You should really look up how tariffs work. They drive up prices for goods manufactured outside the US. Local goods are unaffected, giving them a competitive advantage.
What about situations where there are no alternative us made products
Then there are no US products to affect?
Are you a troll?
Or do you really not get it??
I honestly don’t get whatever “it” is. Again, if you don’t understand what a tariff is, it’s very simple to look it up. Don’t take my word for it.
If there is no alternative from US, the price of that product category as whole will rise, ultimately being paid by US citizens, meaning it is just a hidden tax rise 😘
I agree but that’s not what we were discussing
Read all of the comments here, there are many stating why this would drive costs way up.
Read all of the comments here. I’m not disagreeing that it would drive prices up, I’m disagreeing that there would be tariffs on American products, because that’s not how tariffs work.
They increase demand for domestic goods and therefor raise the price of goods that were already more expensive than the imported goods.
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I honestly can’t tell if you’re serious. You do know that the vast majority of the chips in all the devices you use are not manufactured in the US? Doubling the prices of the chips imported to manufacture devices here will obviously jack up the prices of those devices
Why wouldn’t I be serious? If they’re manufactured outside the US then they’re obviously not manufactured in the US?
I believe they’re referring to products made in the USA that contain chips.
As in importing chips would be 100% but importing a product that contains chips would be 15%?
The tariffs only apply to the imported products. That’s how tariffs work. If you import components into a US product then you only pay the tariff on those components, not the entire product.
The tariffs only apply to the imported products. That’s how tariffs work.
Right.
If you import components into a US product then you only pay the tariff on those components, not the entire product.
Isn’t that in agreement with OP? Any products made in USA that contain chips will cost more to make due to the 100% tariff on the chips.
Isn’t that in agreement with OP?
No, OP said it only applied to US products. It’s applied to all imported products. That’s what a tariff is.
Sounds like you can save 85% by putting some googly eyes on the chip and calling it a finished product. It’s Chippy, the pointy pet that fits in your pocket.
Pretty sure that’s their point. Say a product costs $100 dollars with no tariffs. If you import the product from the EU with a 15% tariff, it’s now $115 with tariffs (assuming no tariffs importing the chips into the EU). If you manufacture the product in the US, you need to pay 100% tariffs for all the chips. Obviously the impact depends on how much the chips cost relative to the entire product, but if the chips are half the cost ($50), then with a 100% tariff you’re now paying $150 for the product manufactured in the US.
If you manufacture the product in the US, you need to pay 100% tariffs for all the chips.
Incorrect. Once again, tariffs are only for imported products. That’s how tariffs work.
Surely the tariff would apply separately, so the imported cost would be $157.50 ($50 chip @ 100% tariff + $50 everything else @ 15% tariff).
If they didn’t apply separately, the tariff would be trivial to dodge.
The real problem seems to be that none of the news articles try to dig into what Trump’s vague and ambiguous wording actually means. They just report his nonsense verbatim. Does “building in the USA” mean building chips or building products containing chips?
So you’re an AI right? Like no real person would believe this
WTF are you talking about? Did you not go to elementary school?
I feel like there must be a miscommunication/misunderstanding here.
Agreed.
No, they’re trolling. There’s zero chance this was explained this many times and they’re still fighting like they don’t understand what is being said
“Trolling” = discussing facts? You are the one who doesn’t understand. It’s very simple: US tariffs do not apply to US products.
This was a few days ago but wasn’t it the case that imported chips to be used in American products would be tariffed at the time of import? Why wouldn’t that be the case?
I think they assume that a USA device would have tariff only on the imported chips inside, whereas a device from another country would have its chips tariffed, as well as an additional tariff on the full device when imported.
I don’t know if this is the case or not because Trump is unclear and as others have pointed out this would be trivial to evade if components aren’t tariffed separately.
No matter what those in the USA would be paying more for electronics.
What he means is, if I buy an iPhone built in China, this tariff won’t affect the price I pay.
But if I buy a phone built in America, with an imported processer, this tariff will make that phone more expensive.
Not correct. Once again, tariffs only affect imported goods. If you buy an iPhone built in China (assuming you import to the US) you’re going to pay a tariff on the device.
If you buy a phone built in America, with Chinese processors, you only pay tariff on the processor.
He meant that this is a disincentive to manufacture a phone in the USA.
Phone built in china: 30% tariff on the total assembled unit (this week is 30% or it changed again?)
Phone built in USA: 30% tariff on all the components because they’re made in China, 100% tariff on the processor, AND spend 1000% more in assembling the device because finding, training and paying skilled workers is way more expensive
Maybe there might be an incentive to move production to a country different from China, but the situation changes too wildly. The risk of spend millions to move production to Vietnam to get a lower rate, then a week later Trump gets diarrhea from eating a bahn mi and imposes an immediate 50% tariff as revenge
What? Are you putting American chips in these phones manufactured in China? Why would you think they wouldn’t be subjected to the chip tariff?
If you manufactured it in the USA there are no tariffs. I don’t know why this is so hard to understand. Manufactured in the USA = no tariffs. Manufactured outside the USA = tariffs. It’s really that simple.
Labor has always been more expensive in the US, that’s why tariffs exist.
there’s a youtube video from “smarter every day” that showed his attempt to make something 100% in the USA.
The item was just a barbecue scrubber, with just a few components.
He needed a simple screw… NOBODY made that in the US…
He needed a simple plastic knob… NOBODY made that in the US (he bought 10k “american” knobs but once arrived there was a MADE IN COSTA RICA sign)
He wanted to make injection molds in the US… NOBODY did that, he had to find some retired expert to help him.
So, if you assemble stuff in US, you still need to import EVERYTHING, paying the same tariff and with more expensive labor. Tariffs need to be carefully considered and target a specific item in order to have some positive effect
I don’t understand what any of that has to do with this discussion.
The question comes down to whether a phone with a chip in it is subject to the tariff or just raw chips being imported. No one is putting a US chip in it, because US chips don’t exist. The foundries to make them don’t exist.
If the assembled phone is subject to a “phone” or “general” tariff at 30% and not the 100% chip tariff then it incentivises manufacturing in china vs the US is what I think the OP is saying.
Why wouldn’t the tariff apply to chips already in devices? That’s the way its always been discussed.
Right, but this tariff, at least as I understand it, is on chips imported as chips, not on products that contain chips. An iPhone will, of course, be subject to some other damn fool tariff, but not this specific one.
Of course, my understanding of this specific tariff may be wrong.
Where do you see that?
That’s generally how tariffs work. A tariff on grain is not a tariff on bread. A tariff on steel is not a tariff on knives. A tariff on cotton is not a tariff on clothing.
It can be, of course. A tariff can be on steel and items made with steel. But that’s not usually the case, and it’s usually called out as such. Of course, Trump is not what you’d call the most precise communicator in the world, but all we can do is work with what he says.
That’s not how tariffs work. You can’t just circumvent them by packaging them differently.
I like that! It always sucked that everything is more expensive here in EU, Trump’s trying to help us by making it even more expensive in the US.
Release the Epstein files.
Every time somebody says this it always makes me think of the scientist from the expanse.
We should definitely release those files it would be really helpful.
“There was a button. I pushed it.” Where’s Holden when you need him?
Release the Epstein files
I agree, but I think we should amend this phrase.
Release the UNREDACTED Epstein files
I want it in audiobook format. Read by Will Wheaton.
Excuse me? LeVar Burton is still alive.
From the bleachers, we watch the Trump shitshow daily. The topic of the show is: “What can Donald Trump still do today to appear even dumber than the day before?”
And he is not disappointing. What’s next? Tariffs for interstate trading? One must admit, this would be a really dumb idea, but it is not outside Trumps grasp.
Looks like we just found our new interstate secretary! Tell us more about these tariffs against California.
What’s interesting about this is that Ghislaine Maxwell just got a transfer to a cushy facility in exchange for what is likely to be heavily coached testimony about how Donald Trump totally didn’t rape children.
My hope is that he signs the pardon before she testifies, and then she burns him down on the stand.
Why would he pardon her? Prison is sheer hell and she got a huge upgrade. Fuck around and they can take that back. They got all the leverage they need without the screams of outrage a pardon would bring.
offtopic: Maybe that’s why a transparent and safe prison system, a bit like what Norway has, would do well for USA. Don’t tell me anything about feeding criminals in luxury, because you are spending far more taxpayer money on far more idiotic things. Also rehabilitation is really a big thing.
Child abusers don’t deserve rehabilitation.
It’s usually considered smart to avoid hard problems.
Thus to say that every criminal deserves rehabilitation. You won’t achieve anything good from taking it from them anyway.
Well we shouldn’t be letting them back out so rehabilitation is pointless and impossible anyway. If you can’t understand that fucking kids is bad without being institutionalized you’re a lost cause
There’s plenty of context, the best is that nobody has the moral right to punish others.
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How much prison time have you served in state and federal prisons, if I may ask?
Forgive me for asking, it’s just to judge how much direct experience you have with what you’re claiming to be knowledgeable on.
There are sadly a lot of people in the Internet who would say such things without ever having actually experienced them firsthand, and it’s important we educate ourselves on the difference. Thanks!
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As if she would… She will just do what she do best, just not for Epstein, but for mr president himself, I fear…
She would not survive that.
Even better
Sure, but she knows it as well, and I doubt she’d risk her life thusly.
Yeah :(
I think shalafi’s right though; keeping her in rich comfortable prison is how they’re going to control her
I read those news in a way that she’s now in a low risk facility with plenty of other people around who might casually remove a witness, rather than stuck in isolation in a max security prison where every ‘suicide’ would be met with public outrage.
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I watched part of this announcement and he said something I normally don’t pick up on
“If they have started to build or have plans to build they don’t have to pay the tariff.”
Sounds like.jobs.
But what I heard was it was a discount for the oligarchy. Why do you only get a discount if you are in the position to at least pretend to be building a factory?
And then since prices are now double, you get to import and sell at an easy profit.
Yeah, Apple’s stock went up 5% yesterday because of Tim Cook’s meeting with Trump (where he promised $600 billion investment in US manufacturing), and Apple’s saying they won’t be affected by the new 50% tariffs on India. There are also ghost factories that were built during Trump’s first term.
Which literally means they have to announce fake plans to build which be continually delayed until at least 2028
Even once it opens, it’s cheaper to pay taxes on an empty factory than it is to pay tariffs or American workers.
Plus of course the problem that chip manufacturing is not a US traditional industry, so there probably isn’t that much skilled labor.
Ironically they’re probably going to end up having to hire foreign nationals.
Oh boy, another distraction
Still about the Epstein list? Or is it now about the child abuse pastor?
Either way, Trump is a pedophile who is close friends with several other pedophiles. That’s the important part.
All the dangers they tell us about being over weight and eating like shit, and this mother fucker is still clinging to life like an 80s action hero clings to the underside of a helicopter at the climax of the movie. Come on clogged arteries, do something!
The truth is most human maladies are combination of environment and viruses. The two thing our current administration refuses to do anything about.
Unrelated, welcome to Lemmy.
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The cover image looks like he’s trying to make farting noises with his mouth. Not that that’s much different than anything else that comes out of it.
1000%, 2500%, 600%, 1500%
