I never said blue no matter who. Its one reason why I do say we should have our own party. Voting blue is really just a last resort; one we often have to make because we make no effort in primaries with our own guy or trying to run an independent.

In a sense this is like a marathon. You cannot just show up there is a level of prep that goes into it. I still don’t think we need to be a major party. We could still take offices on local levels and even split enough votes to have some sway in state elections.

The thing is that many MLs have a self fulling prophecy here. They won’t participate at all and then of course get nothing; which they then use as evidence they should have done nothing.

I agree with Cowbee that voting alone is not going to bring about all the change we want to see. We will also need strikes to build labor rights again. I just find it to be an unforced error to ignore elections completely.

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It is still helpful to be heard and minimize harm. Its good that you are privileged and won’t be targeted by ICE for example, but others are. Voting as left as possible shows that the overall population is not going to welcome them.

Enjoy your privilege @Cowbee@lemmy.ml, the rest of us do have to deal with the consequences of the elections.

Weather they are militant or simply political groups doesn’t change what I wrote. Do MLs not want others to see they are the group that is walking the talk and get more people to join in? I don’t imagine they want to have such a short reach.

Its not an accusation if you are putting this much energy into telling me why elections don’t matter. At least do the minimum there and encourage your fellow MLs to do so.

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Glad you did, please help encourage more people to do so as well. We could all have an even bigger leftist movement. Voting is only a small part of what we need to do, but we should not neglect it.

I feel I am. I have presented my case. You’re the one that wants to be counter productive and making excuses for people to stay home. “There will be opposition”, brov there will be in each case. Just take an evening to vote its a small ask; the fact its too big for you means we cannot count on you for the bigger stuff.

The point is that taking the system over on a strictly legal basis

You can’t because you don’t vote.

You can’t otherwise because your movement can’t even coordinate (or is to apathetic) to vote; much less to storm the capital.

I see.

MLs would want to build credibility of their movement and they would be advertising who they are. When they houthis walk the talk and lob missiles at Israel or ships they are clear that it was them and why they are doing what they are. That helps bolster their movement and recruit more people to do even more.

If you are the group doing the action you want it known so that you can keep growing.

ook at Allende, he was voted in and then immediately coup’d for it by Pinochet and the US Empire. Revolution is necessary.

A revolution could also be coup’ed therefore we should not make one by your own logic.

I am engaging at the same level you are.

Many groups are mentioned. Its not clear they are all mls.

Do it anyway.

Show me exactly where I say we should skip out entirely. Show me exactly how I am being counter-productive.

And you won’t get the results you want because you don’t show up to vote. Aka, you are being counter productive to your own ends.

But nobody is saying we should ignore elections

And yet you put so much effort into telling me why you are not going to help us get the left most candidate possible. You’re the one effectively saying we should ignore elections.

Marxists do vote, though. As I already proved, PSL runs campaigns. Marxists do not think it is useful for anything other than exposure, however, which is why Marxists stress how important it is to actually do stuff like organizing.

And yet we have individuals like you asking people to just skip out and being counter productive to our overall movements. Show up anyway bud, its only an evening every 2 years (if you are american, but that doesn’t change my point)

Well the server you are on ends in .ml to mean marxist lenninist, so yeah they are kind of labeled.

Also another question. Voting isn’t just voting under your system as I understand it. It’s a multi year process of canvassing and related work. So if bourgeois-democracy has been shown to be a dead end repeatedly throughout history it feels like wasting the hundreds of hours to prep and do it is a real misallocation of resources no?

Im not going to repeat too much, but you can read more with my chat with @Cowbee@lemmy.ml on here. You do make a good point. It is a marathon and those take prep, but so does everything else we are doing. You are going to be reaching out and canvasing for your community food bank, your protests, and strikes. You don’t have to go all out with spending money, but formalizing yourself into your own party, which we should, marks us as real players and able to make an unset election if we are not taken into some consideration.

Outside of elections we still have some formal places to coordinate our outreach and keep putting our name out there.

@Cowbee@lemmy.ml makes it out like I am saying we should only vote, but note I am not saying that. I am saying that ignoring elections is foolish of us.

You’ve been arguing against Marxists for not doing enough

I am saying that they don’t help contribute much to overall leftist movements and their lack of willingness to at least vote helps minimize our overall impacts as well. Like you said it happens ever 2years and you can’t spare an evening for it? Are you that busy… and still have not much to show for it?

We can do more than one thing at a time and it is foolish to ignore elections completely.