Still waaay too expensive :(
I’d pay it if they had a few things I’m looking for:
- Trackpoint (Thinkpad nipple)
- physical mouse buttons, including middle mouse button
Basically, I want the ThinkPad keyboard on a Framework laptop.
My main problem with those prices is not even the value for money (albeit imo there is quite a disparity here), but the financial damage when lost/stolen. For private use, I just don’t want to carry any device around that is substantially more expensive than ~1000 EUR.
And the only thing that Framework has to offer me that no one else insise the EU has, is 15+ inches without a num block and with centered touchpad. The market share of laptops with num blocks (and accordingly off-center touchpads) is infuriatingly high and tells me 99.5% of people either have a tiny left hand or do no serious typing on the keyboard.
I’m not worried about theft at all, but I hate typing on crappy keyboards with no travel and I don’t like using the trackpad unless I absolutely have to (and I have a Macbook Pro at work, which supposedly has the best trackpad, and I still don’t like using it).
I want a comfy keyboard and a way to middle mouse click (makes 3D modeling feasible, nice for scrolling pages, etc).
I’m willing to budge if they make a model with great battery life, something to rival my ARM Macbook Pro. If I can get that with expandable RAM, I’d give up on the keyboard, but I can get a better keyboard on an x86 Lenovo for half the price…
There are people out there that use those nipples wow! I guess everyone has their preference, for me 120hz screen is a must.
Being able to move the mouse while you’ve got dirty and moisty hands or wearing gloves while watching diy videos on cars is always a god send
Yup, and they’re my jam. My workflow is very keyboard centric, so being able to scroll while keeping my hands on the home row is nice.
A 120hz screen is nice, but isn’t nearly as impactful as a good keyboard and trackpoint. I’d take 60hz if I could get a Thinkpad keyboard.
Now if only Framework did that with AMD & Intel GPUs, then we’d all be balling.
Also please make it available in the East
They’ve had AMD for a few years now. No Intel one, but they do sell empty GPU module shells, so maybe someone could cut down a desktop Intel card to fit in one?
I doubt you could (well, with a level of effort 99.9999% of people world be willing to put in), power and the pcie connection would cause problems.
Yeah, I bet someone would do it for Youtube views, but you’re right, that’s too much.
Just picked up my first Framework 13. Moves like this are why I’m increasingly trusting of their mission and vision.
Hopefully they stay private, or better yet, change their corporate charter into a cooperative. Never go public.
OK I’m a bit confused. I have a Framework 16” that I bought earlier this year, without the GPU extension bay. I don’t care that much about the expansion bay as without it, the laptop is already huge. I have an eGPU to play on when I need it.
What upgrade options does this announcement offer to me?
I’m dissatisfied with:
- the webcam
- screen colors / brightness
- key stability on the keyboard (the keys are a bit wobbly)
- speaker sound quality (I’m not expecting the best, but something better than what it shipped with)
They are announcing a new webcam, will it be backwards compatible ?
Otherwise I’m really happy with it, I absolutely love the modular I/O, being able to swap which side the audio jack is is amazing. happy to support this endeavor of repairability
So I went back to the blog post. They are shipping the Framework 13" webcam in this updated 16" version. The part was already available for me to upgrade!
We’re now using the 2nd Gen Webcam that we first introduced last year on Framework Laptop 13.
https://frame.work/blog/introducing-the-new-framework-laptop-16-with-nvidia
The module comes pre-installed on Framework Laptop 13 (Intel Core Ultra Series 1) and the new Ryzen 7040 Series configurations with the 2.8k display. It’s also compatible with all of our existing Framework Laptop 13 and Framework Laptop 16 models […]
https://frame.work/blog/framework-laptop-13-deep-dive---a-laptop-webcam-with-smartphone-technology
Ordered the webcam. Will update when I upgrade it.
There’s new webcam, theres also an “empty” extension thing where you can put 2 nvme SSDs in place of the GPU.
They made a new webcam , but im not sure if they shipped recent models of the 16 with the new webcam or if you have to buy the new module :/
At least there’s an option at all.
That’s exactly why I like framework laptops.
So I’m going to be skeptical here. I had an older 9xx MSI laptop that was touted as replaceable and “upgradable” GPU for the next generation at the time.
That ended up as a big ol’ whoops, because replacement screwed with thermals and found that you couldn’t actually upgrade because of all kinds of reasons and resulted in a class action suit.
Just color me skeptical on these types of things.
Framework has been pretty consistent on upgradability. You can even put the newest MOBOs/CPUs in the oldest laptops since they kept the formfactor identical. They sell such mobos on their website.
GPUs a bit of a different monster since there no such thing as a standard socket, you’re bound by the manufacturer spec for pin in/out.
And that was the case with MSI laptop and Nvidia partnership when Nvidia went full Darth Vader and changed the terms of the deal.
I mean more power to them if they can actually deliver actual modules that can be upgraded and if I can actually see a generation or two of this actually working, I’ll be on board but once bitten, can’t fool me again for the time being.
The standard is PCI-e, and it is interchangeable. This is the second dedicated video card you can get in a Framework laptop, and they can be swapped out with each other. The other video card is even an AMD Radeon.
Again, that’s great if they can continue to update and release their GPU module to work with additional and future gpus. I’ll believe it when I see it be updated with the next generation of gpus because just like it said on their press release, others have tried it and failed.
This is the next generation GPU. The Radeon is a last generation model that you have been able to buy for awhile now. What you are asking for currently exists and is something you can buy on their website right now and upgrade your older laptop:
Prior Module: https://frame.work/products/16-graphics-module-amd-radeon-rx-7700s
New Module: https://frame.work/products/laptop16-graphics-module-nvidia-geforce-rtx-5070
Ah, I see. Well cool, that’s actually pretty neat then, reasonably, at least in terms of today’s ridiculous GPU market, price. Maybe they will be the ones to break the curse then and I can have a laptop that can actually treat like a desktop.
Could you not just get an eGPU dock, and do it that way?
Maybe they will be the ones to break the curse then and I can have a laptop that can actually treat like a desktop.
Nah, unfortunately they are just as beholden to the GPU makers as any of us. More than larger laptop OEMs for sure.
A future Intel Arc module may be the only hope, but that’s quite a hope.
I just got a 10L SFF desktop I can put in a suitcase, heh…
Since the cooling system is self contained in the module, you shouldn’t have that issue.
The new GPU also has the same 100w tdp as the last one
damn son, those lappies aint cheap
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I’d prefer an AMD 9000 series because I refuse to support Nvidia, but the upgradability is still an amazing achievement. I’m glad to see Framework delivering.
Out of curiosity, why do you refuse to support Nvidia? AMD isn’t some saint, they’re a shitty corporation just like Nvidia. They got lucky when Jim Keller saved their asses with the Ryzen architecture in the mid-2010s. They haven’t really innovated a god damn thing since then and it shows.
Edit: I get it, I get it, Nvidia is a much shittier company and I agree. I was pretty drunk last night before bed, please pardon the shots fired
Not OC but I don’t want to deal with Nvidia’s proprietary drivers. AMD cards “just work” on Linux
That’s completely valid, I haven’t had issues on Linux myself with nvidia, but I know it’s definitely a thing for a lot of people.
Except that AMD doesn’t support HDMI 2.1 on Linux (not their fault to be fair, but still)
Is that the case on mobile APUs as well? I’m pretty sure my laptop with 7840u does 4k120hz
This may be an unpopular opinion but who cares? I’ll use DVI if I have to.
I personally don’t have a need for it, but if someone has a 4K 120Hz TV or monitor without DisplayPort that they want to use as such, it’s kinda stupid that they can’t.
yeah, but that’s the fault of the HDMI standards group. AMD cards could only support HDMI 2.1 if they closed their driver down. I guess this can’t be fixed with a DP to HDMI adapter either, right?
my opinion: displayport is superior, and if I have a HDMI-only screen with supposed 4k 120Hz support I treat it as false info.
Intel cards do, I think, so that’s a non-NVIDIA option.
yeah intel (⊙_◎)
they’re a shitty corporation just like Nvidia
Neither of them are anyone’s friend, but claiming they’re the same level of nasty is a bit of a stretch.
Not saying that supporting the under dog isn’t good.
Just don’t think AMD is less “nasty”, the only thing stopping them is the lack of power to do so.
Right, and since they’re not dominant, they’re less nasty. If they become dominant, consider switching to whoever is the underdog at that point.
Besides what was mentioned below, it’s not about making competitive products but about Nvidia being an absolute asshole since the 2000s and they got even worse ever since the crypto and AI craze started. AMD and Nvidia are both corporations but they are not even playing the same game when it comes to being anti-competitive.
There’s a reason why Wikipedia has a controversies section on Nvidia: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia#Controversies
That list is far from exhaustive. There’s so much more about Nvidia that you should remember vividly if you were a PC gamer in the 2000s and 2010s with an AMD GPU, like:
- When they pushed developers to use an unecessary amount of tesselation because they knew tesselation performed worse on AMD
- When they pushed their Gameworks framework which heavily gimped AMD GPUs
- When they pushed their PhysX framework which automatically offloaded to CPU on AMD GPUs
- When they disabled their GPUs in their driver when they detected an AMD GPU is also present in the system
- When they were cheating in benchmarks by adding optimizations specific to those benchmarks
- When they shipped an incomplete Vulkan implementation but claimed they are compliant
Nvidia has been gimping gaming performance and visuals since forever for both AMD GPUs and even their own customers and we haven’t even gotten to DLSS and raytracing yet.
I refuse to buy anything Nvidia until they stop abusing their market position at every chance they get.
If you want one more, NVIDIA is building a multi billion dollar tech hub in Israel
If you want more, NVIDIA is bullying tech reviewers into pushing fake reviews
Haven’t innovated? 3D chip stacking?
CPU companies generally don’t change their micro-architecture, especially when it works.
intel didn’t for 7 years, but they started and ended that trend.
for laptops, either get last or even further generation 8 core cpu and 5070/4070, or be happy with AI 300 series igpu. Buy more memory instead. You might one day want local AI/LLMs.
Problem is almost no laptop has Strix Halo. Not even the Frameworks.
And rumors are its successor APU may be much better, so the investment could be, err, questionable.
Iirc this was due to the design of the chip. Framework said the bandwidth needed for the strix halo is waaaaaaayyyyy faster than the bandwidth of the sodimms that laptops have.
Hence they made the desktop, only thing they could think of doing with those classes of apu’sIt’s just soldered LPDDR5X. Framework could’ve fixed it to a motherboard just like the desktop.
I think the problem is cooling and power. The laptop’s internal PSU and heatsink would have to be overhauled for Strix Halo, which would break backwards compatibility if it was even possible to cram in. Same with bigger AMD GPUs and such; people seem to underestimate the engineering and budget constraints they’re operating under.
That being said, way more laptop makers and motherboard makers could have picked up Strix Halo. I’d kill for a desktop motherboard with a PCIe x8 GPU slot.
The limitations isnt in the lpddr5x ram, but in the sodimm interface.
Now if I could only afford a Framework…
If I could only afford any decent gaming laptop honestly.
It’s getting harder and harder to afford high end computers. I have already decided my next new computer will be a mini desktop. They are noticeably cheaper, can be well spec’ed, and powerful with a small foot print.
now if only they sold them in my country…
That’s it, every other gaming laptop is finished. Even though I have the older CPU I can get the newest GPUs now. Nobody can claim that right now. No other company is doing this.
The other laptops arent finished yet. Framework is super expensive , even compared to other gaming laptops.
I think its worth it, but thats not the opinion of a lot of casual people.
And had i not gotten one via my job, i would not have gotten a framework 16 because of the priceWell, the idea is that you can upgrade components without replacing everything, so the initial cost is higher but the long term cost is lower.
That said, they took their time. The 1st generation is old now. The Radeon dGPU is probably weaker or on a similar level than the new Ryzen iGPU. There is no Radeon dGPU upgrade path other than “just use the old one”. They have a better upgrade cadence with the 13 inch model.
Oh i know, and i agree. Im in talks with my boss to maybe upgrade the mainboard pre-maturely to the latest. Im using the lower costs as an argument haha
Surely there will be a desktop case for the old mainboard, as with the case for the 13" mainboard. Then you can to a little yoink and have yourself a good desktop PC.
The yoink is not needed. We have a policy to get a new laptop every 4 years. After that the laptop is all ours once formatted on site ( to make sure no company or customer details get leaked ). This is how my brother got my old dell xps, which he really needed for his education
Edit: apparently they are working on it, same with a case for the gpu to convert it into a e-gpu
Not their fault, Radeon mobile parts are not out
What are you talking about? Of course there is newer hardware than a Radeon RX 7700. The 7900 specifically.
The CPU also has no Ryzen 395 option either which Framework source for their unmodular desktop PC.
The 7900 is not newer
The 7900 specifically.
They have to stay within the TDP. Their only option is something newer and ~100W (like the 5070).
And I’m pretty sure the 7000 series is going out of production anyway…
Also (while no 395 is disappointing), it is a totally different socket/platform, and the 395 has a much, much higher effective TDP, so it may not even work in the Framework 16 as its currently engineered. For instance, the cooling or PSU just may not be able to physically handle it. Or perhaps there’s no space on the PCB.
A new power brick is needed anyway. That’s why FW now has a much more powerful one as well.
The 395 obviously would throttle if heat or power become a problem.
If GPD can put the 395 in a handheld, Framework can put it in a 16" chassis.
What about SIM slot
Apparently there’s some open source designs for a sim card module already. Idk if Framework is planning on making their own though. https://github.com/Zokhoi/framework-cellular-card
Presumably a Wan modern could fit in one of those little USB port things.
*caresses screen*
some day…
Which part is industry first?
swappable Nvidia RTX 5070 GPU
the title is sensationaliat, as the gpu part has been done before (mxm gpus)
the only industry first off the top of my head is the 240w usb c epr charger for a laptop
Industry first to use this specific part in this specific way
Yeah if the newest GPU fit your laptop! But it never really worked well
Framework is partially owned by Linus Media Group.
They got their PR game on lock.
Lies. Linus is a round 3 investor. That’s all. The industry first part is THE FUCKING SWAPPABLE 5070. Why are we being so dense for a company that is so far the best chance we’ve had since IBM came up with the ThinkPad.
Define “millionaire with his own PR company and a history of using them for his own personal needs is a significant investor” whichever way makes you happy.
Mobile GPUs have already been a thing. They are generally soldered for structural purposes but that isn’t a requirement of the tech and some of the htpc form factor devices that used mobile GPUs have had them as swappable. Also, the old framework 16 already had non-soldered GPUs?
It is just that this isn’t an avenue that most system integrators care about. Because there is already a MUCH better solution in the form of external GPUs which… still sort of exist. The idea that you focus on power efficiency and convenience for the laptop and plug it into a dock/big ass box when you want more GPU power. And even THAT is mostly a novelty since onboard GPUs/APU systems/whatever are actually REALLY good these days and more than capable of driving what people generally want/need on a laptop display.
But either way: This is “an industry first” in the same sense that it was an “industry first” when I figured out where the fricking map of my motherboard was while building it. A very big accomplishment to solve a problem that bothers a lot of people (fuck the shorthand maps. Gimme the real one) but also only a “first” if you narrow things down massively. You know… like with PR.
a company that is so far the best chance we’ve had since IBM came up with the ThinkPad.
- You… seriously should read what you post. Like… wow.
- Okay. What do you think framework is going to be your savior in?
Because honestly? Framework is cool as hell. But most of what they are “innovating” are not soldering things and making people not realize they are still just using a usb c port and a shit ton of dongles. The former tending to have very little utility for end users but be INCREDIBLY useful for assembly line workers.
And, generally speaking, the people who are swapping out their GPUs every other year… aren’t the kind of people who will care if they buy a new laptop or reuse their old one except for all the parts they wanted to replace or upgrade. Let alone heat concerns (which is why I would LOVE a benchmark of the different paths towards the same SKU in a framework).
Linus (not lmg) invested in the company. It’s not the same thing. And he doesn’t “partially own” anything. Also, linus’ pr image kinda stinks. Specially after the GN debacle. The dude is a narcissist prick.
What happened between Linus and GN?
It’s a long story and you can look up their videos on yt. Basically Linus is a narcissist who can do no wrong and the work culture at LMG is pretty crappy. Not just due to the pressure and quality of the videos being bad due to the high volume (that’s why they don’t post as often now) but also one of their former employees (Madison) said that she suffered abuse while working there. None of the higher ups gave a crap or did anything about it.
And when GN responded to all the sniping over the months… LMG came out ahead. Rossman is a manipulative libertarian prick, but he really nailed it with Linus exhibiting all the signs of being a gaslighting abuser. And… it works.
Because the general consensus, outside of their subreddits (although even in GN’s…) was that Steve was in the wrong for responding to all the “some people are out to get us” style sniping and should just let the “drama” drop. And then LMG immediately pivoted to “Dude, just let it go. We improved our practices and are better for it. Maybe you should too. Oh, and if anyone mentions Madison’s name we’ll sue the fuck out of them”. And it worked.
If only because LMG is an order of magnitude larger (17M versus 2.5M subscribers) and most people likely never even heard GN’s arguments on why not lying about your testing to support corporate sponsors/interests is bad. They instead just see some guy “whining” (and probably get fed a lot of sock puppets from the companies GN has burned bridges with…) and move on.
LMG is nowhere near as untouchable as they used to be. But they are still probably the single biggest influencer in the PC/“tech” space. And… just look at this thread for the people who, with a straight face, are talking about how Framework will be their saviour from some nebulous threat.
LMG is nowhere near as untouchable as they used to be. But they are still probably the single biggest influencer in the PC/“tech” space.
Do you really think so? Afaik, no one goes to the for hw reviews. They basically just make generic content that gets views. When it comes to actual technical reviews, they pretty much suck.
just look at this thread for the people who, with a straight face, are talking about how Framework will be their saviour from some nebulous threat.
I also don’t get why they’re praising Framework so much. Don’t get me wrong, the product seems good but it’s waaaay too expensive imo.
Only argument I could make is that this is the first gpu module that has a self contained cooling system. Older mxm cards were just the PCB.
thr frameworks AMD 7700s came before it, so it wouldn’t be the first.
Industry first Nvidia card with this setup? Like it’s a bit thin but that’s the closest I can get to “erm actually”
hence why Mention the titles a bit sensationalist.
its using a gpu company that rarely does it, for the first time in awhile in a very specific way, as that’s not the title of the thread that OP links.
the idea of a laptop dgpu isnt new
the idea of a removable laptop dgpu(mxm)
the idea of a removable nvidia laptop dgpu isnt new(same as above, also asus rog flow attachable gpus)
the idea of a slottable gpu isnt new (frameworks 7700s came before it)
its the combination of the above which is pigeonholing the definition hard enough that it really doesnt have any real merit.
Nvidia is really cagey about what they let vendors do with their gpus, they had one
hotswappable concept years ago and it never went anywhere because they basically didn’t allow them to do anything with it. So this actually making it to a product is crazyEdit: not hot swappable, just swappable, please turn your PC off first lmao
Afaik, the gpu is swappable, not hot-swappable and modular nvidia gpus are not a new thing. Older gaming laptops used to have the gpu as a daughter board.
You’re right, mixed up my terminology
So what’s the hivemind consensus fellow lemmings, framework or thinkpad? My brain says lenovo but my heart says
Framework is more repairable but Thinkpads simply have superior build quality with less issues.
My experience with Framework is exactly one unit, but I would disagree with this. The Thinkpads I’ve used all felt more plastic-y and less sturdy than my Framework. The keyboard did feel cheaper until I wore the powdery texture off of the keycaps (took about a week), at which point it felt amazing.
My experience is a Framework 16 I dont personally own, however I do have a T440p and build quality simply seems superior. I vastly prefer a durable and hard plastic above a thin mental sheet that bends.
I get it. In my opinion being made of plastic isn’t as bad as feeling plastic-y, but I realize that’s a personal thing
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I’d say it depends on your needs and budget Framework has a higher build Quality and a bit loser prices but if this isn’t a Problem for you, go for it. Great repairability and replacebility is awesome!
Thinkpads are not what they once were. I finally gave up on them, moved over to a Framework, and haven’t regretted it.
There is no Thinkpad as repairable as the framework and if they are (they’re not) the price is out of reach for individuals since the p51 with LPCAMM2 targets enterprise costumers.
Your brain is wrong on this one. Follow your heart
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And still no OLED screen… why Framework, why?
I got one of the latest Framework 13 a couple months ago for work, and while I’m happy about the prospects of future repairability and upgradability down the line, it’s not a great laptop given its pricepoint.
The build is subpar, with the screen flexing a ton, the keyboard and trackpad are lacklustre and pretty uncomfortable, but the worst is the screen, it’s dim, with poor colour reproduction and 3:2 is frankly not for me. And fractional scaling is a mess with XWayland, while it was much better on my 2019 XPS 13.I love what Framework are pushing for and actually achieving, but tradeoffs are very much at play. I’m hoping for an OLED screen replacement in the near future though.
I’ve yet to use an OLED monitor that didn’t make text look shitty and I’ve used $1000+ OLED displays with high ratings.
Don’t get me wrong, OLED colors and blacks are gorgeous. I love OLED.
Even my Samsung Pro whatever latest laptop with an OLED display…the text just looks off. Which was disappointing because my Samsung phone text is fine.
LG C2/3/4, also gross looking text.
Alienware OLED $750+ monitor? Text was bad.
I love OLED but I’ve yet to find one that works for productivity.
Did you turn on PC-Mode with your LGs?
I use an LG nanocell TV as an pc monitor and the fonts didn’t look good until I set the HDMI input type to PC. And ofcourse you need to play around with the font rendering tools like ClearType in Windows.
Aren’t phone screens AMOLED? I’m definitely not an expert, but I thought it was a variation of OLED, which would explain why text looks better.
That being said, I also have an OLED Steam Deck and I can read text on it just fine if the scaling is set correctly in the game or just browsing the web normally in desktop mode.
Ah, true, thanks for the correction.
Maybe I’ve just had bad batches of displays? I don’t know. I got 3 really nice Asus ProArts and the text clarity and colors are fantastic.
Still wish I had blacker blacks.
Yep, text is definitely not handled well on most OLED monitors (or TVs) because of their pixel substructure. It’s usually been better on Linux for me and I essentially don’t notice it anymore, but I also haven’t used Windows in years so I can’t compare.
Hmm, I am working on converting all my things over to Linux so maybe I’ll give it another shot.
Windows always has this weird ghosting going on, super odd.
Almost all OLED displays use a different pixel layout than traditional LCD displays. And sub pixel font rendering is designed for the standard LCD layout. Depending on your OS you may be able to configure the font rendering to look better on most OLEDs. But some people are just more sensitive to this as a problem.
Yeah, unfortunately I might be one of those people. I can also see some monitors flickering which gives me a headache in sub 3 minutes.
It’s a curse. Especially with in-office pairing.
I have a friend who has always been picky about displays, I thought he was just being nit picky
Since normally my eyes can’t distinguish between 480 and 1080 under normal circumstances and flicker goes un noticed
I think that’s PWM dimming vs DC dimming.
PWM dimming turns pixels on and off to make them darker. So for 50% of the brightness, it’s off 50% of the time. Higher end panels flicker much faster which helps mitigate perceived flicker. I think 500hz and above is preferred.
For DC dimming is just using voltage to control the darkness with no flickering involved.
The good thing: You will probably be able to swap it once they make it available.
I really don’t see it happening considering you would likely just be replacing the whole chassis. I see an OLED in the future, just not a swappable one.
You can buy individual displays directly on framework’s website and swap them into even their oldest laptop. If they make OLED versions in the future, it will be the same: a display swap.
Wow, til. Thanks homie!
