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I suppose one of the many reasons why there are no consistent clothing sizes is because it’s so difficult to agree on a way to measure things. What parts do you measure? The lower leg thickness? the upper leg thickness? the waist circumference? The leg’s length? What if these numbers are all independent of each other and can’t be reduced to a single number?
different cuts exist that already set out at least some standards for this
I don’t disagree that it is difficult, but we have the ability to do this. We’ve done more difficult things
if companies actually did share 5 numbers with each piece of clothing (notice that that actually wouldn’t work since each piece of clothing is a bit different since they’re still largely hand-sown and measuring each piece of clothing is unpayably expensive) it would lead to a bureaucracy hell. businesses in europe already complain about too much bureaucracy, because they have to document a lot of things, and this would make the outcry a lot worse.
on top of that most customers wouldn’t actually bother reading a datasheet of 5 numbers and instead just try them on. so it’s not even a big advantage.
We have centimetres, how hard is it to just provide the measurements of a piece of clothing with it?
This isn’t just a problem with women’s jeans which have arbitrary size numbers. Even men’s jeans which are size by the actual waist and inseam measurement can be wrong. In addition to vanity sizing, cheaper jeans are also made from larger material cuts out of the patterns at the same time to save manufacturing cost sometimes twice as many as shown here:
Those at the top or bottom of the stack may end up a bit smaller or a bit larger than the pattern, but they all get marked with the same size.
Whether it was this manufacturing problem or vanity sizing, this is why I stopped buying Old Navy jeans. I could pick out 3 jeans all labeled with the same size and one would fit okay, one would be too small, and one too large. I have never had this problem with Eddie Bauer jeans.
Edit: I found picture showing the larger stacks (which can introduce the mismatched sizing) I was referring to:
This is fascinating! thanks for the pics, it makes so much sense.
The only question is why they are making jeans with wax instead of denim
The ultimate jeans post
Even men’s jeans which are size by the actual waist and inseam measurement can be wrong.
They’re not generally sized by the actual waist measurement. I wear 33W and my pants all measure about 36" around the belt line. The “waist” measurement derives from many decades ago when men wore high-waisted pants where the waist was a few inches smaller than the circumference around the hips, where waistlines are today. Men were also generally a lot fitter back then, too!
Holy shit. This man jeans.
Dickes’s work pants are always like this, horribly inconsistent. But they were cheap and they last forever so you just have to grab a pile of the same size, try them all on and buy the ones that fit. Good luck ordering online…
Is that then called a jeack?
I really want a law that requires clothes sizes to use actual, verifiable measurements.
Its not hard to have a waist circumference then short/mid/long. I think that’s how overalls are sized - in practice its try them on & allow for shrinkage after a couple of washes.
yeah hope they’ll get right on that, add it to the list. we’ve already got one on the list: pass a law saying you cant shrink portion sizes on your labels until you can say “zero calories” in each of 1000 servings of oil
I feel the same way, especially shoes. I guess the chart, size guide and even measurements is BS. This is why I dont order clothes online, last order I got the shirts are like big night shirts. Ah, well.
If anyone is down for a fascinating video essay about this by a textile historian: Standardized Sizes Ruined our Clothing Quality
Have you ever wondered how we let clothing quality get so bad? It wasn’t just desperation for cheaper options- the 18th century consumer would never have been willing to pay so much for such poor quality cloth. And yet, they stayed clothed. Even their cheaper options lasting years of hard wear. But they knew what quality looked like and for the most part, we don’t.
When did we forget how to shop for good clothing rather than just trendy? What makes clothing “high quality” is so complex and nearly impossible to track with online shopping. Even in person, it’s not a simple answer. But it used to be that more money meant more quality, plain and simple. Where did we mess up this system? Turns out, standardized sizing allowed (and even encouraged) far more than just issues with poor fit and body image.
Back in the day you’d get a pair of jeans and they’d tailor it to your needs. If it was high quality materials I’d pay 200€ for a pair. Much cheaper than 5 x 60-80€ for bad / low quality crap.
My guess is that’s more about fashion than not knowing how to buy good quality things.
In ye olde days, like the 1950s, jeans were jeans, and a pair that lasted years was great. Then in the 1980s trends started emerging like stone washed jeans, or acid washed jeans. Then there were the boot cut, tapered leg, loose cut, baggy, bell-bottom, and all kinds of other trendy cuts.
What’s the point in buying a $200 pair of jeans that will last decades if they’ll be out of fashion in 5 years?
High quality clothing is still out there, but it’s not fashion clothing, it’s work clothes. If you go to a store that caters to construction workers, factory workers, or other people who have to wear durable clothes as part of their job, you can still get stuff that lasts a very long time.
I got two work shirts at the same time. Both size 44, same manufacturer, theoretically identical shirts.
Almost a full letter grade size difference, one is basically a L and the other was almost an XL.
How do they fuck up 2 supposedly identical shirts? Fucked if I know.
How do they fuck up 2 supposedly identical shirts? Fucked if I know.
Well, clothes are still sewn by low-paid workers in sweatshops, not industrial robots, so I guess some variation is to be expected.
Where were they manufactured?
It’s so frustrating. I’ve most often experienced this with two of the same item in different colors or fabrics, but not always. Once I was trying on a particular jacket at Uniqlo and the size medium was super tiny but the size small fit just right. Did they mix up the size tags sewn into the jackets, or what?
i am simply too impatient to buy tight or normal fitting clothing - i just buy loose M or L everything and eyeball if it should be M or L, bonus points for drawstrings but i do also own belts so anything will do.
besides, finding a well fitting pair of jeans is borderline impossible for me, because: 1. i’m a guy 2. i’m short 3. i have a big ass. those 3 combined seemingly make me a mythical creature, clothes designers don’t seem to even be capable of thinking to make jeans that’d fit me well.
jeans that fit my ass and are short enough? guess i don’t get to have pockets (because i’d need to buy in the women’s section)
guy design and big ass variant? baggy on the rest of my legs & now i need to cut them to walk
guy design & good lenghts for my legs? my ass doesn’t fit
:(
I ordered new shoes last week, same size as always of course. They’re at least two sizes too large. WTF?
It’s less extreme but men’s clothing is like this too. I found a cut of jeans I liked in a store then ordered 4 mor pairs in different colors. None fit the same and 2 were unwearable.
I wear size 34 cargo shorts.
There is no point near my waist that is even close to a tape measured 34 inches.
The wonder of “relaxed fit”
Its been a long time since I’ve actually been measured but I must be somewhere between 32 and 38 inches based on the pants in my closet. My 36/34 jeans fit the best. I have to wear a belt but they aren’t so loose that they immediately hit the ground without on. I picked up a 34/34 pair. Same cut, wash, and color and they are wearable but they’re tight at the waste and crush my balls a little when I sit. The inseam must be at least an inch shorter than the first pair.
I did the same! It was not jeans but pants that is supposed to look like they are a bit more formal but are more comfortable. From the website did I just pick 3 different colors of the same size but they all fit so differently, and one pair had much thicker fabric, felt more like they went “close enough” and called it a day lol
There are sizes just for straight people?
Duh, the crooked ones need special clothing.
I refuse to allow anyone else to buy clothes for me
Forces women to go to store to try on, stay there longer to find a good fit. Ensure makeup, perfumes, bags/accessories, and jewelry are always in eyeshot of the women’s clothing racks and along the entry/exit paths.
It’s not woman-exclusive and also the companies deciding the sizing are not the same as the companies running department stores (for large clothing brands these days, online shopping in their own store would be optimal, since retailers take a large cut).
It’s mainly that making sure sizes are actually the same costs more money than just going with whatever comes out, and it’s hard to make purchasing decisions based on size consistency once a large amount of brands do this.
Well that’s just declining quality due to profit motivated practices. Like yeah if you’re going to old navy or H&M you’re going to be disappointed. A second-hand store is a total guess. Avoiding fast fashion and sticking to a known high quality brand is at least going to give you some consistency for mens wear. I have throughout my life for example been able to order levis’ slim-straight in the same size and expect the same fit with only minor but expected variations depending on material (thick/stretch, etc). Haven’t bought Levi’s in ages though so maybe they’re garbage now idk. I don’t know of a single woman who’s ever had the luxury of a brand that makes clothes they don’t have to try on.
I know this is a problem, as I see my wife deal with it frequently.
But understand that men’s sizes aren’t consistent either. I have a 32" waist…maybe. Some jeans and shorts fit me perfectly, some are way too tight, and some are way too loose. Even within the same brand and product. The jeans I have on today are pretty good for fit. A different pair of jeans I was wearing a few days ago required regular adjustments to keep from falling down. My weight hasn’t varied THAT much.
The situation for men isn’t as bad as women’s sizes, though. I’d love to know how they think they can compress all of the different measurements a woman’s body can have into a single number. At least they haven’t tried that with men - for example, pants are waist and inseam length, so you can usually get what you need, or at least pretty close (notwithstanding the above issue). If they condensed that into one number, I have no idea how that would work.
Yeah as a trans woman it was bittersweet when my hips stopped fitting in men’s jeans. They’re sturdier with bigger pockets and way more (but not really) consistently sized.
The problem in men’s sizes is tolerances in fabric cutting as they stack more and more sheets per cut. Women’s clothes do that while also playing calvinball.
All this means rhat as a long legged skinny girl with thick thighs, biker’s calves, and an ass I’d only trade while pant shopping, pant shopping is a long pain in the ass.
Big and Tall brands don’t give waistband sizes often anymore in my experience. They just add xs to ls now
There’s a slightly better balance with consistency for men’s clothes because styles and patterns don’t need to change as frequently.
That being said, it varies by brand and varies more when the brand is lower quality. Old Navy clothes might as well be sized “No way,” “I dunno,” “maybe, well, no,” and “Woah, way too big.” But something higher end like BR will be consistent with themselves on things like jeans that rarely change. All the people in some sweatshop in Bangladesh have the patterns down doing the same thing for years.
I’m a size M guy, everything from head to toe is M. If M doesn’t fit, I will try S, but most of the time that is too small, so I just skip that fit or brand. Sometimes the size difference is so ridiculous it might as well be two different shirts. One time I tried a polo in M and it looked like an oversized 90s hip‑hop shirt on me so I tried the S and it was so tight it looked like swimwear lol.
i know the author is only familiar with their own experiences and i don’t expect them to know the other side but this is definitely not exclusive to women’s clothes. every brand just uses their own sizes for everything from hats to pants to shoes.
Shoes are there worst. I need EE width. Some brands, the"Wide Fit" works. Others, “Extra Wide”. And that doesn’t even address how extremely difficult it is to even find wide shoes in-store nowadays.
Some woman shop for/wear “men’s” clothes, either because they shop for the men in their life, or for themselves because the standards are more sensible (even if not perfect) compared to women’s sizing. In other situations, we wear “men’s” cut clothes because it’s the default - like when a workplace gives everyone a free T-shirt. 9 times out of 10, it’s probably a cut designed for men - even if the workplace has a majority of women (as was the case when I worked in a nursing home.)
At least for pants, a lot of men’s pants sizes usually go off a band + length measurement, which is a ratio that women’s clothes don’t offer at all. T-shirts can be bad either way, but I once grabbed two (“women’s”) shirts off the same rack in a store and both fit me perfectly - one was Small, the other was Extra Large. I’ve never seen that bad of a difference when trying on “men’s” clothes, and that’s part of why I prefer to buy from the men’s section. It’s more sensible.
So yeah, vanity sizing hurts everyone. But unless you do shop for both men’s and women’s clothes, it’s hard to appreciate just how awful vanity sizing is for women in particular.
For a mechanized process with no customization; the fucking lack of standards is really maddening.
Just ordering on Amazon the same product in the same size with the same material, but you want a different color. Turns out the size is all fucked up, it’s not even the same material. But it’s a different color.
Maybe it has pockets where the origibal didnt! Maybe it doesnt where the original did! Who can say?
What makes you think it’s so mechanised? Material is often cut on bandsaw in stacks inches thick, they’re sewn on machine, sure, but manually controlled by a human. Different designers, different factories, different QA levels.
Okay, thats fair, but it’s way less fun to say ‘corporatized and taylorized’
Ha, my point was more that the bandsaw wasn’t tracking straight so all the blanks on the bottom are bigger, the seamstress runs a hem 10mm (more or less) from the edge so the dimension remains out and the QA guy couldn’t give a fuck because it’s 8:30 on a Friday night and he’s been working 21 days straight.
Even the same garment is going to have a different size in different countries, large in Italy, medium in UK etc etc. the real size is somewhere in between, but no one makes that level of granularity.
You should watch some of these garments being made, it’s mind blowing.
Cutting blanks and this is a tame/slow process Vs some other factories I’ve seen on the tube.
See, regional differences that i can fix with a conversion chart im fine with. That’s just more sizes. As long as they’re printed.
