An article from this weekend that seemingly got buried by soundbites about the Steam Machine price in the same interview, but given that we have no information on price, this seems way more interesting to me. I mean…I basically self-select games that don’t use these kinds of anti-cheat at all, but this is important information for a lot of people, especially if you’re looking for an off-ramp from Windows and still want to play some of the most popular live service titles.
This is a huge deal for Linux gaming.
This could be huge. I hope they find a decent middle ground.
They’ve worked on anti cheat support before. It still depends on the devs actually activating that support. That will always be the case whatever they do.
Irrelevant to me personally but I’d like to see it cause more windows users to jump ship
I have no need for Steam products. Gaming emulators have been all I needed for years now. I don’t play the latest games so it’s totally fine for me too.
Speaking of irrelevant
TBH, I kinda get the feeling that’s what most of the hype surrounding the Machine is. People hoping it sells well, but not necessarily people planning to buy one for themselves.
I jokingly told a few redditors that they are doing A LOT of the marketing work for the Steam machine. They didn’t like that at all, lol.
lol, they should be proud to champion what valve is doing for the Linux world
That being said I actually don’t have a desktop and would totally buy a steam machine if the price is right
If I didn’t already have a dedicated living room media machine I most certainly would buy this. The emulation potential while chilling on your couch without being at your desk is very appealing to me.
There’s definitely hope that it synergises with what’s going on due to the steam deck.
Personally, I can’t wait to buy two controllers and the machine. The flawless experience of the deck is amazing. And because it’s Linux, I’ll just install YouTube, jellyfin, any app as a non steam game and I’ll have the perfect smart tv appliance.
Stream games, play games, run any program I want through steam big picture - I can’t wait to bury my Shield.
I’ll never have to connect a tv to WiFi again. I’ll never see a fucking ad for anything on my TVs home screen again. With KDE connect my phone is a remote. I’m so fucking pumped.
Ewww.
Any idea or hints how Epic will handle this?
Sit back and let Valve sort it out.
Oh this might be what pushes larger companies to drop kernel level anticheat! That would remove the main reason that keeps my gaming on Windows.
Please make this optional. I’d rather not have any third party kernel modules mucking around in my OS. I don’t use anything the requires this.
It is optional what games you purchase and install
Well yeah of course it’s optional already. If you don’t want that then you just don’t buy those games.
Except people are going to still buy those games, still complain for something to be done and when the potential resolution is there, they’ll go “I DON’T WANT IT!” and just cycle through.
Fuck sakes, some people…
Currently kernel-level anti cheat isn’t available for Linux, so games that are released with multiplayer support don’t require it (e.g. games that enable Linux support in EAC).
If kernel-level anti cheat is supported by Valve, many of those games will start requiring it. So if you don’t want kernel stuff, there’s a real chance this development will reduce the number of available games in the future.
Yes but if linux gets popular those games will get linux cheaters and will be pressured to do something.
Not sure I understand - games with kernel-level anti cheat also still have cheaters.
I’m aware but games and players still want a strong anti cheating solution. There is no protection currently on linux for cheating.
First, it’s not true that there’s no protection - various anti-cheat solutions do support Linux.
Second, “strong” solutions still let through cheaters, because client-side anti cheat is an inherently unwinnable cat-and-mouse game. It’s better for everyone to block kernel-level AC and instead force better backend solutions.
Uh no I’m a linux user and i know the anti cheats that do support linux do basically nothing since any root process can hook in. If majority of gamers were on linux multiplayer games would be unplayable.
Anti cheat is always a Cat and mouse solution not just on the client side and that doesnt mean its bad and cat and mouse solutions do still reduce cheaters.
Good server side anti cheat is a perfect ideal solution, its never existed and I don’t think it will exist.
The article only mentions TPM not 3rd party modules. I’m guessing the idea is that you will have to run an approved kernel.
Kernel modules can be installed, loaded, and run without a reboot in Linux. TPM support would just ensure that the firmware/kernel and modules loaded at boot are expected.
Edit: basically, TPM support wouldn’t really do what a game dev would want for a kernel that can be modified at runtime, unless I’m missing something
Yeah, unless valve starts restricting root access when secure boot is enabled, you’re probably right.
Surprised they (Denuvo, etc - not Valve) don’t just hard require SELinux.
SELinux protects systems from bugs in software. Not against users with full root privileges using their own hardware.
But anti-cheat is mostly about false sense of security anyway.
I don’t imagine the overlap of people interested in the steam machine and people playing games with invasive anti-cheat is very big.
Some of the biggest games on the planet use anti-cheat that just isn’t compatible with SteamOS or any Linux distro, but lots of those people are looking for a way to play the games they enjoy without Windows.
Often it could be compatible, but the developers just don’t bother. The anit-cheat that GTAO implemented works on Linux in other games, but not GTA, because they can’t be bothered to give a fuck.
The way that it was enabled under Proton was less secure than it was in Windows because it operated at a higher level; their inability to run it at that lower level is why they disabled it. This article means that Valve is looking at ways to grant them that lower level.
Interesting, thanks for clarifying.
I don’t disagree, but the only a suff that comes to mind is COD or some other EA shovelware.
Ultimately, if it gets more people on Linux, it’s a net positive.
Grand Theft Auto Online, Battlefield 6, Destiny 2, League of Legends, Valorant, Fortnite, and on and on.
Ah, so nothing I play. Sounds good.
Lol, I was gonna say that. I’m the wrong demographic for the affected games, apparently.
Regardless, if Valve can work out a way for these games to be playable on Linux, I’m all for it.
I personally know a few people who are interested in buying the Steam Machine but are having doubts because some their regular games use anticheat that doesn’t work on Linux.
I imagine the amount of people is significantly higher than you might think because the vast majority of gamers don’t care about invasive anticheat. To them Steam machine is the equivalent of a console. They probably don’t even care it runs on Linux because all they care about is being able to play games.
Yeah, a lot of gamers know nothing about any of this conversation. I mean, my coworkers who game and mentioned the Stream Machine this weekend. Of course one was talking Fortnite. So that’s where we’re at. I didn’t even get into why this “console” won’t have one of the more popular games that’s literally free on every other machine including their phone. (I can already hear people saying “is a computer! It should run everything!” And then getting together when you explain how, and saying “it should be simple! It’s a console!”) It’s months away at best anyway. Who knows.
The majority of gamers buy into the lie that kernel level anti-cheats are more effective, when they really aren’t.
entire box dedicated to avoiding fuckery, gamers beg to install fuckery
stupid mofos
There is nothing worse than playing multiplayer and having somebody who is cheating. Viable and promising games have been ruined by people cheating.
But I don’t see an easy way around the issue but these are the usual solutions:
- Reporting mechanism and admins able to observe cheaters and impose heavy penalties / permabans
- Add anticheat on server side that detect for cheating (e.g. measuring % hit rates / headshots)
- Anti cheat software on client that looks for common cheat hacks
- Stream everything. It’s all hosted on the server, nobody installs anything, limiting ways to cheat.
- Disincentivize cheating by not acknowledging people doing it in any way - no rare loot, no leaderboards, no material gain
- Make it a 3rd party problem - release the server or sell hosting and make it somebody else’s problem to police the servers (e.g. Rust / Minecraft servers)
Personally I’d prefer that multiplayer games obtain consent to install anti cheat and should certify through auditing that the anticheat software is inactive and nonintrusive when the game is not running. Perhaps operating systems could even provide hooks and hard guarantees that this is the case.
- Covered on steam with game bans, which can be handed by server admins
- Would be nice to see ngl. Whats not humanly possible should result in a game ban.
- Covered on steam by VAC, automated system checking for cheat signatures in user memory space
- Hard to do and not realistically feasible for the majority of people, screen capture with per pixel analysis tools would still work but thats not that big of an issue
- VAC and game bans also ban you from community features including trading your inventory, afaik you phone number and all accounts associated with it are banned
They mean the game is streamed from a server to the player, rather than running on the player’s hardware. This might not be feasible for every game studio to do, but would actually open up the game for more players to be able to play (since local hardware requirements would be lower).
I think this is a terrible idea for other reasons, but accessibility and anti-cheat aspects of it are not some of those reasons.
It kind of bothers me that people are putting the responsibility on valve for this, when the companies themselves have purposefully not enabled compatibility in most cases.
They haven’t enabled it because they don’t get the same level of protection on Linux as they do on Windows, so Valve is trying to address that.
In case this is serious, kernel-level AC has been shown to not be particularly effective. There were people with hacks for BF6 before it released, for example. Them blocking an operating system doesn’t prevent cheaters. It only prevents consumers from having options.
Of course I’m serious. “Not 100% effective” is not the same as “not effective”. And to be clear, I hate it and do not endorse it. I will not buy any game that goes as far as to use that kind of anti-cheat. But developers use it because it’s more effective at catching cheaters than not using it. All downvoting me does is cover your ears to what’s actually going on. There are a number of big live service games that once enabled Proton and have now disabled it after cheaters took advantage of the more lax security. They would not cut off a portion of their customer base if they didn’t have to because user space in Linux was somehow just as effective as the Windows variant that lives at ring 0 in the OS kernel.
The reason they do it usually is because some executives hear the Linux is less secure and that it’s only a small segment of users. It isn’t because it’s effective. The games that blocked Linux are almost all some of the games with the worst hackers. Guess what happened when they blocked Linux? Nothing. The number of hackers that were on Linux were near zero.
The issue is they cant be bothered to put the actual money/work to create a solution that’s effective. Instead they signal to their audience that they’re doing something by removing Linux, which doesn’t cost them anything and makes a show that they’re actually trying. It doesn’t fix the problems, but they get to make a show out of it.
Please cite sources for any of that. Game companies aren’t in the business of losing money. If they could make more money by supporting Linux customers, they would do so, and I’ve never heard of a gaming company’s executive ever mentioning anything about Linux except for Gabe Newell, openly or behind closed doors. If they wanted to make a big show of getting rid of cheaters, they’d never have enabled cross play between consoles and PC in the first place. They openly tell you why they don’t enable anti-cheat on Linux, in a way that’s beyond just being plausible, and you refuse to believe them. You’re only going to be surprised when this continues to happen even though the answer is right there.
I have to cite sources but you don’t? One example is Rust, a notoriously hacker filled game.
Of course they’re trying to make money. I literally explained that. The executives see Linux as not providing value, and it’s extra effort to support it. They’d rather instead use it as a symbol of how they’re actually trying really hard to fight hackers, but it’s a lie. It’s just a convenient excuse.
You haven’t heard an executive say almost anything. They run companies. They don’t publish their every decision. They are the ones making the calls. They’re the ones responsible. They’re also largely technologically innept. They probably don’t even know what Linux is. They just know what they’ve been told.
You’re only going to be surprised when this continues to happen even though the answer is right there.
There are like two major companies doing this. There’s EA and Riot. There’s a tiny minority of minor players, like Rust. There’s also a lot of Chinese companies doing it. (China is infamous for having hackers, so yeah, didn’t solve that problem did it?)
I can’t tell you the last time I booted up a western game and it didn’t work on Linux. (I think it was Squad44, which then added support, and support in the main Squad game has been in for a long time.) Everyone is moving toward supporting it, not away. The only places it’s an issue are large slow companies where the executives have too much control.
Your explanation is bordering on conspiracy theory, so yes. Rust cited why they cut support, as did Apex Legends, as did GTA Online. The rest often don’t even bother with supporting it in the first place because of how it always plays out. The existence of hackers at all doesn’t mean that Linux anti-cheat is equally effective, and you’d know that if you read the write up from the Rust team.
In this instance not effective is 100% not effective.
Both kernel and non kernel anti cheat are equally effective in actual practice. In both cases your preventing kids, lazy and low knowledge users from cheating. But anyone who is willing to spend any amount of money to cheat can easily find someone who will provide them with a bypass.
In both cases the anti cheat is only as good as the on going support from the devs of both the anti cheat and the game.
You can’t control what a client does end of the day
I wish you the best in convincing devs with the data in front of them that there’s no difference between the two, but they seem to have data that indicates that they see fewer cheaters with ring 0 anti-cheat than when they let Linux players in with user space anti-cheat. If it were true that there’s no difference, surely Valve’s engineers could convince them of that, too, but that doesn’t seem to be happening.
you are mostly right. anti cheat is somewhat more effective with kernel level access. also, it is infinitely more dangerous and creepy to run on your machine.
however, if the devs can get rid of just a couple more cheaters - they will absolutely insist on the more intrusive versions. it is not their machine after all.
i see two variants on how to solve this issue:
- let your wallet speak. this failed long ago IMO
- remind the devs, that a client is never to be trusted. if i had the time, i would probably make a sport out of breaking kernel level anti cheat and distribute it for free 😈
guys this comment is clearly satire, why did yall downvote?
Poe’s law, maybe
I’m not sure what there is to gain by pretending that downvoting me changes anything.
30% cut from developers. Steam machine. Valve is working together with anticheat devs on this, not alone
If Valve can make wireless vr AND fix windows only anticheat, both next year, I’m going to be 10 different kinds of happy. I would love to basically never need my W11 SSD ever again.
On the one hand, I don’t give a fuck about anti-cheat, because games using the kernel-level version tend to be giant multiplayer cesspools of little value.
On the other hand, I want Windows to lose the war.
I hope Valve can find the balance between these two extremes.
This just reads like a bunch of nonsense. What are they actually doing?
Here’s aiming to be hopeful…
I remember back when playing DRM video in a web browser on an open source operating system seemed like a worrying impossibility. Many sites stayed stuck on closed-source flash players for that reason alone. It was a while before we ended up with this solution I only partly understand - where the DRM decoding is handled through some kind of trusted block, that generally doesn’t have full OS control?
Do you get full HD video from streaming services these days? Last I checked, the best of them only top out at 720p without Windows.
Yeah I get 4k with Firefox on cachyOS
Interesting. Did this happen recently? When all of the streaming services starting raising prices, I started cancelling. Which ones give you full HD? Do you need to go out of your way to get there, or will regular old Firefox do the trick? Does it need TPM enabled or anything like that? I was looking to re-up Amazon Prime in the very near future, but when watching on my web browser, a show like Vox Machina was just a blur factory, and it was easier to pirate the show than it was to stream it legitimately.
