At what point do Democratic voters get to sue Biden / Harris for gross professional neglegence? Setting aside the morality of supporting genocide, the level of sheer political incompetence and mismanagement that led us to this result is mind boggling.
Remember this the next time the Democrats tell us that a real primary isn’t needed, or the next time they put a thumb on the scale to push a particular nomination. The Democratic establishment is entirely unworthy of their positions.
The sad thing is that this is the perfect time to set up a progressive third party.
AOC and Bernie, maybe even Katie Porter for good measure. If they announced they were leaving the DNC to form a progressive party, I might even quit my job and join them.
And don’t give me the “BuT tHeY wIlL sPliT tHe VoTe!” Bull shit.
The DNC is splitting the vote.
I keep giving actual IRL examples of a populist 3rd party breaking a duopoly in other countries, and people are still downvoting me on c/Politics for such an insane and radical idea.
I’m disappointed the progressives within the Democratic party haven’t contemplated this, because they still feel as if they can fix the party from within, as if their own primaries aren’t rigged every election season.
Like yes there is a big chance you won’t win a majority the next election, but it sets you up as a proper competitor to the system, and soon supporters of both Democrats and Republicans will switch sides en masse after they experience the results and realize there is a better alternative.
I wish it were bullshit. It’s just math and some pretty basic political science. There is no way to get even the majority of the Democratic voters base to switch at the same time, and if the shift is gradual the vote is split (whomever you want to say is splitting it) and we lose everything.
It’s also a juvenile fantasy - the dream of just starting from scratch and getting right this time. There are tens of thousands of elected seats in state and federal government - nevermind local. For a party to threaten the Democrats, they would need a large percentage of those offices. State government runs elections and decides who gets on the ballot. You can’t just bypass it. The moment you are a threat, ballot access will be pulled out of reach.
Assuming you could put together a large enough coalition to overcome these obstacles, you are going to have a hell of a time keeping the same corrupting forces from taking over. How many times have we elected politicians with progressive rhetoric only to see them turn on us once elected?
Anyone who has the clout to build a party from scratch, keep it on target, and displace one of two ruling parties would be more than capable of taking a party over, and would do so much more easily with a lot less risk.
You could use the exact same arguments you have for not voting at all, because a single vote doesn’t matter.
Unfortunately, that is also a fact
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Yup, exactly. And that’s exactly what I mean about a third party. It needs to happen yesterday and it needs to ignore the “they can’t get in because it just splits the vote” crowd. It needs to be better than the democrats in every way that counts and it needs to do what the people want. So that nobody can go “a single vote doesn’t matter”.
damn… and !unsubscribe did nothing.
Let’s consider the counterfactual: is it possible that this was a calculated decision about a complex topic and that abdicating led to a more positive outcome than not?
The subtext of this post seems to be: if only harris hadn’t ignored the Gaza problem! And I reject that as a premise
By the way, let’s consider another counterfactual: is it possible that Harris (the sitting VP) was privy to more information about the conflict than voters were?
If this is the case, they have to publish the polling data that led them to believe it. Otherwise there’s no reason to give them the benefit of the doubt.
On what planet do you think that American politicians “have to” do anything? They regularly break the law. It’s a bicameral system and until you riot or DDD it won’t change.
Also, your statement makes the assumption that the complexity lies solely in polling and voting, but politics is more complex than that. Israel is a nuclear power. For all we (civilians) know, they can be a regular destabilizing threat actor for the West, have damning blackmail that threatens the DNC, or has enough high powered offensive hacking actors that the US sees its alliance as more important than its ethics
By the way, this entire system of incentives illustrates the complexity of politics in a way that ought to dismiss any kind of black-or-white argument about really any political topic, including the (in my limited opinion, valid) condemnation of Trump.
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On what planet do you think that American politicians “have to” do anything?
Sorry, I thought it was obvious from the conversation that they “have to” do this if they want to get elected. You get that’s what we’re talking about, right?
Also, your statement makes the assumption that the complexity lies solely in polling and voting, but politics is more complex than that. Israel is a nuclear power. For all we (civilians) know, they can be a regular destabilizing threat actor for the West, have damning blackmail that threatens the DNC, or has enough high powered offensive hacking actors that the US sees its alliance as more important than its ethics
Sure, it’s possible Harris was playing 4D chess, but then she shouldn’t be surprised that people don’t vote for her. This kind of approach to politics is something that people have increasingly started to reject, so again, terrible approach if you want to get elected.
“Maybe the Democrats weren’t bought off by Israel, maybe they were being blackmailed. Wouldn’t that be better? Or wait, maybe they just really like having access to Israeli spyware and hackers, and consider that more important than not murdering women and children! This is a complex issue and there’s lots of possible reasons that you may not be privy to that the Dems could have sold their souls and the future of the american people for!”
I think you’re trying to mock me but in fact this is exactly what I’m saying
I am very notably not defending Harris but lemmings have spent too much time on xitter to remember what critical discourse looks like
How are any of those things better or worthy of support? Those are all still completely ghoulish reasons to support a genocide. Youre presumably worried about russian interference with trump, but youre cool with the Israelis blackmailing kamala? We’re just supposed to shrug that off and say “oh she didnt have any choice”?
I actually don’t really understand what you’re arguing about. I saved this and read it a few times but I don’t understand your question
Who wants to change the bicameral system? Is that a new popular trend? What’s the better alternative?
I live in England, that would be a good starting point for your Google search
The US bicameral system is the House and the Senate (a two chamber legislature).
What system is the better alternative that we should riot about? You said it and I’m just asking you to explain.
Oh excuse me. I’m using “the bicameral system” to refer to “the way representation works in USA”. A more accurate and relevant way to point to the bad part would be “the two party system”, since in fact you could reasonably have a bicameral congress with proportional representation
Occam’s razor still applies. Your alternative explanations require additional and sometimes obscure factors, whereas the direct experience of the Uncommitted folks (actual Democrats! With previous Democratic campaign experience!) already gives an explanation that hasn’t been shot down by Harris campaign insiders either.
Can you tell me what you think the confounding factors are?
For example, you’re assuming the Harris campaign knew something we don’t. That’s adding extra variables.
Cool I think that applies
But let’s use the device as a tool for thought rather than an Oracle
In doing so, let’s examine the counterfactual: do you think the Harris campaign likely was privy to knowledge that we are not and which isn’t shared? I absolutely do
Genocide is a complex topic?
What positive outcome pray tell? Losing some voters for good and depressing turnout? I thought Trump was a threat to democracy, why did Harris allow him to win?
A far simpler explanation is that AIPAC bought politicians of both sides.
You are clearly a genocide denier if you are merely referring to it as a “problem”.
Dems that said “ceasefire would be nice” and “two state solution” after Oct 7th faced the most expensive/funded primary races in history. The ones who’se primary opponents never mentioned Israel despite all the AIPAC money that funded them won.
It is unfortunate. The uncommitted had low bar requests that Harris could have verbally acknowledge without any true commitments and that still was too much.
During negotiations with the DNC and the Harris campaign, we were repeatedly told by interlocutors that Harris couldn’t meet any of our basic requests (a policy shift from Biden, a Palestinian speaker at the DNC, a statement distinguishing herself from Trump on Israel, or even a meeting with Michigan families who lost loved ones to Israeli bombs) because of AIPAC-aligned politicians like Fetterman, who might take to TV, rile up suburban white and Jewish voters, and fracture the party’s coalition in a swing state.
https://xcancel.com/_waleedshahid/status/1887595942100062234
Yes. As my other comment mentioned, DNC both from pro Israel ideology, and “party unity”, needed to support the genocide, and other swing states were at stake. Fetterman now supportive of Trump is icing on the cake.
By the way, let’s consider another counterfactual: is it possible that Harris (the sitting VP) was privy to more information about the conflict than voters were?
No. Not possible.
That “America overall” is pro zionist because they are told to, does mean that Netanyahu embarassing Biden/Sullivan by refusing the ceasefires he agreed to, denouncing him to walk back settler sanctions, and denouncing him to walk back 2000lb bomb supply delays is Netanyahu picking Trump as president. Zionist hedge fund managers getting media access to complain about “rising anti semitism” in America, because Biden didn’t Kent State University anti-genocide protests, to shower Trump with money, doesn’t mean the few zionists who kept supporting DNC were paying it to win.
The calculation that more democrats support Israel than oppose genocide is what “DNC/Harris knew”. DNC is a zionist first organization. Liberalism is a talking point, not their ideology. Americans have always been programmed to be on the same side. That doesn’t mean Harris as VP has greater information on what virtue means.
Well they got their ass kicked so you know…
This isn’t really true as far as I’m aware
Well since you seem to be responding to comments 3 months later maybe you’re just really behind on the times and your awareness needs to be updated.
That could be true, please enlighten me
Sure just give me 3 months
No problem can do
