He had some bangers but also some real shit takes like slaves obey your masters, faith healing, and substitutionary atonement. He’s been dead for ages and the multiple times he told his disciples the second coming would be within their lifetime never happened.
If you want better role models look at Fred Rogers, Dolly Parton, Bob Ross, people that are or were generous and charitable without damning anyone who doesn’t agree with their religion or believe they are a divine messiah.
If I steal 20 bucks from you then I need to ask for your forgiveness, if my friend Tom forgives me or takes my punishment it does nothing to apologize to or provide reparations for victims. What is justice if not rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior?
That doesn’t justify the substitution, and if that god exists that’s not justice, that’s just an evil god who decided that eternal torture is an appropriate punishment for being born into inescapable sin with no chance of rehabilitation after a short life.
If the original sin was committed by Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and bad, which they themselves would not know was bad because they hadn’t yet eaten it, then threatening to punish them and all of their descendents with eternal torture forever is evil. There’s also no reason that the atonement of sin to an all powerful god requires a blood sacrifice or any sacrifice except by his rules, there are multiple sin atonements in the Bible accepting flour, money, incense, prayer, etc.
You’ve just contradicted yourself. First you say it’s silly that God is willing to pay and accepts payment for our sins from Himself, then you claim God is evil because He punishes sin to begin with. How could a sinful person expect their sin to be tolerated around a perfect God? Yes, such sin damns us to hell, but God forgives it, and Jesus is the mechanism of God’s forgiveness. If God just let people who were sinful in His sight get into heaven, He wouldn’t be perfectly just. You mentioned that we should be able to atone for sin using flour, money, incense and prayer. That’s like a player trying to bribe a Minecraft server admin to not ban him for rule breaking with diamonds. God can create flour, “money” (something that only has value because we perceive it to. What’s God going to do with it, buy His groceries in Tesco?) and incense. As for prayer, He has a multitude of angels praising Him constantly.
Adam and Eve knew what they were doing. God told them not to. But they did it anyway. If their descendants didn’t sin, their descendants wouldn’t be punished. But their descendants sinned. This “cruelty” is null and void considering God gives us a free way out (compared to your “better” idea where you proposed that you should need to work to get out of Hell)
You’ve just contradicted yourself. First you say it’s silly that God is willing to pay and accepts payment for our sins from Himself, then you claim God is evil because He punishes sin to begin with.
It’s not a contradiction to say if this god exists he makes unnecessary rules and unjust punishments for breaking those rules.
How could a sinful person expect their sin to be tolerated around a perfect God?
If this god exists and was knowing, loving, and powerful I would expect he could forgive them and rehabilitate them, not cast them aside to be tortured forever, that’s not an act of love, that’s an abusive intimidation tactic saying love me or else.
Yes, such sin damns us to hell, but God forgives it, and Jesus is the mechanism of God’s forgiveness. If God just let people who were sinful in His sight get into heaven, He wouldn’t be perfectly just.
Who created the system where sin and hell exist and require forgiveness? If this god exists imperfect creations are exactly what a just creator would want to see so he can forgive and rehabilitate them. Instead he punishes them for actions he knew they would take before he created them, why create them in the first place if he knows they will live an insignificantly short life compared to the length of eternal torture? That is an evil thing to do.
You mentioned that we should be able to atone for sin using flour, money, incense and prayer. That’s like a player trying to bribe a Minecraft server admin to not ban him for rule breaking with diamonds. God can create flour, “money” (something that only has value because we perceive it to. What’s God going to do with it, buy His groceries in Tesco?) and incense. As for prayer, He has a multitude of angels praising Him constantly.
Those aren’t my rules to accept flour, money, etc as atonement for sin, they are the rules of the god of the Christian Bible.
Adam and Eve knew what they were doing. God told them not to. But they did it anyway.
If they didn’t know the difference between good and bad, how would they know that disobeying god was bad? That’s nonsense. If a child is too young to know good and bad and they draw on the walls it’s just as unjust to punish them.
If their descendants didn’t sin, their descendants wouldn’t be punished. But their descendants sinned. This “cruelty” is null and void considering God gives us a free way out (compared to your “better” idea where you proposed that you should need to work to get out of Hell)
The descendants had no choice in the matter to eat the fruit, it’s unjust to punish someone for something they did not choose or their ancestors chose. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity under the Geneva conventions for a reason.
I don’t think there is a god or hell, but if I did believe the Christian god exists there’s no reason to think blood sacrifice is required, and there is no free way out if you are required to worship an apparently evil creator to avoid eternal suffering.
All that said I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement but I do appreciate the discussion, and while I may yet be saved by the holy spirit if god exists I hope you read the Bible with a more critical eye on the actions of the moral actors within.
He had some bangers but also some real shit takes like slaves obey your masters, faith healing, and substitutionary atonement. He’s been dead for ages and the multiple times he told his disciples the second coming would be within their lifetime never happened.
If you want better role models look at Fred Rogers, Dolly Parton, Bob Ross, people that are or were generous and charitable without damning anyone who doesn’t agree with their religion or believe they are a divine messiah.
Slaves obey your masters wasn’t Jesus. Also, what’s wrong with substitutionary atonement?
If I steal 20 bucks from you then I need to ask for your forgiveness, if my friend Tom forgives me or takes my punishment it does nothing to apologize to or provide reparations for victims. What is justice if not rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior?
Because if we were all to be punished for our sin, everyone will be thrown into hell eternally. That’s the punishment for sin.
That doesn’t justify the substitution, and if that god exists that’s not justice, that’s just an evil god who decided that eternal torture is an appropriate punishment for being born into inescapable sin with no chance of rehabilitation after a short life.
If the original sin was committed by Adam and Eve to eat the fruit of knowledge of good and bad, which they themselves would not know was bad because they hadn’t yet eaten it, then threatening to punish them and all of their descendents with eternal torture forever is evil. There’s also no reason that the atonement of sin to an all powerful god requires a blood sacrifice or any sacrifice except by his rules, there are multiple sin atonements in the Bible accepting flour, money, incense, prayer, etc.
You’ve just contradicted yourself. First you say it’s silly that God is willing to pay and accepts payment for our sins from Himself, then you claim God is evil because He punishes sin to begin with. How could a sinful person expect their sin to be tolerated around a perfect God? Yes, such sin damns us to hell, but God forgives it, and Jesus is the mechanism of God’s forgiveness. If God just let people who were sinful in His sight get into heaven, He wouldn’t be perfectly just. You mentioned that we should be able to atone for sin using flour, money, incense and prayer. That’s like a player trying to bribe a Minecraft server admin to not ban him for rule breaking with diamonds. God can create flour, “money” (something that only has value because we perceive it to. What’s God going to do with it, buy His groceries in Tesco?) and incense. As for prayer, He has a multitude of angels praising Him constantly.
Adam and Eve knew what they were doing. God told them not to. But they did it anyway. If their descendants didn’t sin, their descendants wouldn’t be punished. But their descendants sinned. This “cruelty” is null and void considering God gives us a free way out (compared to your “better” idea where you proposed that you should need to work to get out of Hell)
It’s not a contradiction to say if this god exists he makes unnecessary rules and unjust punishments for breaking those rules.
If this god exists and was knowing, loving, and powerful I would expect he could forgive them and rehabilitate them, not cast them aside to be tortured forever, that’s not an act of love, that’s an abusive intimidation tactic saying love me or else.
Who created the system where sin and hell exist and require forgiveness? If this god exists imperfect creations are exactly what a just creator would want to see so he can forgive and rehabilitate them. Instead he punishes them for actions he knew they would take before he created them, why create them in the first place if he knows they will live an insignificantly short life compared to the length of eternal torture? That is an evil thing to do.
Those aren’t my rules to accept flour, money, etc as atonement for sin, they are the rules of the god of the Christian Bible.
If they didn’t know the difference between good and bad, how would they know that disobeying god was bad? That’s nonsense. If a child is too young to know good and bad and they draw on the walls it’s just as unjust to punish them.
The descendants had no choice in the matter to eat the fruit, it’s unjust to punish someone for something they did not choose or their ancestors chose. Collective punishment is a crime against humanity under the Geneva conventions for a reason.
I don’t think there is a god or hell, but if I did believe the Christian god exists there’s no reason to think blood sacrifice is required, and there is no free way out if you are required to worship an apparently evil creator to avoid eternal suffering.
All that said I don’t think we’ll come to an agreement but I do appreciate the discussion, and while I may yet be saved by the holy spirit if god exists I hope you read the Bible with a more critical eye on the actions of the moral actors within.