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Screenshot of a Tumblr post by indigosfindings:
imagine if someone just like started addressing you as Dipshit, like youre just talking about your day & they say “no way Dipshit, that’s crazy.” and then maybe you say to them that you would prefer not to be addressed as Dipshit & their response is “well in my major metropolitan area ‘Dipshit’ is not considered an insult. im not saying i think youre stupid when i call you Dipshit, i call my mom dipshit all the time” so you say Thats cool but please dont call Me that. and then they just repeat that it’s something they say daily, they call all of their best friends & lovers dipshits & are called dipshit in return. “my grandma calls me dipshit at the dinner table, it doesnt mean anything.” so you say Yes i understand that your friends & grandma arent bothered by being called Dipshit but i am, & i would prefer if you didnt address me as that. and they say “it’s literally not possible for me to stop calling you dipshit, and it’s not reasonable for you to ask me to, dipshit.” anyway this post is about nothing in particular
one more report andI’m locking this whole mf threadI’m not reading my way through 200 comments but I’m locking this so I can keep up with whatever you all report.
My Original Comments:
spoiler
I understand this is a controversial topic but y’all need to behave your damn selves
The basics are:
- This is fundamentally a discussion about hurtful language, including slurs. I don’t mind them being mentioned / referenced (in fact I would argue it’s important to talk about them), but I’m not going to tolerate them being directed at people. This is y’alls final warning on that. I’ve removed some comments already but after this I’m just going to start handing out bans.
- I know there’s alternate interfaces for Lemmy, but on the basic version I’m familiar with, under each comment there is a button on the left end of the bar of buttons with three dots and a little arrow indicating additional options. If you press it, you will find that you have the option to “block” other users. This function will make it so that you no longer have to see anything they post or interact with them. This is a fantastic feature that I highly recommend utilizing in the event that someone says something you find upsetting that does not break the rules of this comm or instance.
It’s like when I lived in Miami and everyone called me “gringo” or “flaco.” When I asked them to stop they would say it was endearing. But imagine if I called them “removed” or “fatty” what their reaction would be.
I mean it’s very common for fat men to be nicknamed “gordo” ie fatty. Of course it’s ignorant but definitely not meant offensively.
Fatty? Is that a slur for something? Or was everybody there just overweight?
Translating is always perilous. My dad said never do it. But I wouldn’t translate Gordo to fatty. It’s not old slang, it’s not out of date, and it’s not culturally offensive. It’s more like calling your son ‘‘bread ball’’ or ‘‘Lil biscuit’’ or something you’d lovingly call a chubby baby.
Flaco means skinny
Ohhhhhh… That took me a second to understand.
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Yeah this post is about you.
I’ve had people say “you” is a slur.
Fuck off.
I could make a more detailed argument, but no. I should not need to.
That drag person?
Drag’s never said “you” is a slur, drag doesn’t even require that people use drag’s preferred pronouns.
People just get embarrassed to be misgendering drag on their own and get upset with drag about it.
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You can’t call Drag by drag’s preferred pronouns? Hell that one is easy to remember tbh.
Just block the user if they’re annoying you.
A person who refers to themselves in the third person in one hand.
Nazis in the other.
You’d pick Nazis?
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Drag uses person independent pronouns, drag isn’t a nickname.
This might help you understand why someone who is okay with Nazis hates drag.
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It isn’t third person (this comes from asking drag about it a while ago),
they(edit: er drag) treat drag as an actual neopronoun. Technically if there are infinite pronouns and neopronouns are valid, then it is just as much of a valid neopronoun as any other noun-self pronoun like kitten/kittenself, doll/dollself, or yes, drag/dragself. Below I’ve linked the wikipedia page for neopronouns, see the section labeled noun-self pronouns.
Okay.
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Saved
New response if TERFism:
“Ok dipshit”
We’ll win the social media battle with that one for sure.
You’re not going to change their minds no matter how much effort you put in. Might as well give a zero effort response.
I understand the desire to have people use your pronouns, and as long as one can see what gender you are “presenting”, one should use those pronouns.
If someone prefers other pronouns, then I’m sorry… Many people (me included) have a hard time remembering names… I wouldn’t have a chance remembering a large set of different pronouns if I can’t even remember the names of that person. A pronoun is a non specific way of addressing someone and a break life saver like “you”…
To to switch to an all inclusive them/they for everybody seems overreaching.
If it’s not obvious what pronouns someone prefers, then they shouldn’t be annoyed if someone makes repeatedly mistakes.
And this makes it hard to distinguish a mistake from an insult…
The problem isn’t someone getting a pronoun wrong on occasion. It’s when someone deliberately uses the wrong one, and often times stresses the the pronunciation, in order to make sure you know they choose to use the wrong one deliberately.
If they act like cunts, we should call them cunts. But I totally understand that’s not possible in all situations, like when you have a person in power cunting all over you.
If the same person repeatedly makes the same mistake after being corrected it’s fair to think that person might be an asshole.
It isn’t about remembering names, it’s about being willing to use the correct one when informed. Exchange pronouns for proper names to test the concept.
If you forget someone’s name and you think it is ‘Pat’ but it is actually ‘Kelly’ would you continue to call them '
KellyPat’after remembering that it is ‘PatKelly’?*Edit: I love that I mixed myself up even in my example. But to prove my point I’ll call the correction out and be fine with that.
See, no, if I forget someone’s name I’m entirely happy with things like “alright dude see you later,” you can entirely get away without knowing someone’s name. I have people I’ve known for years, don’t know their name, not sure they know mine, and that’s fine.
My problem (and many others I guess) is that i won’t remember Pat or Kelly the next time. And the next time. And the next time etc etc. Especially if I only see her ever so often. No chance to remember special pronouns beyond what gender they present. He/she/him/her is relatively easy (but not always…) them/they or anything else they prefer seems overly complicated in a social setting.
But if I remember the name and intentionally use others to taunt you, then yes, I would be a cunt. And I try not to be one…
Generally being nice to other people is a good thing. It makes the world a nicer place for everyone. And in cases like this, it seems like it is pretty easy to be nice - just don’t call that person ‘dipshit’. That just seems like a very low-cost way to show the person that you respect them.
We started calling my wife’s narcissistic psychopathic Russian ex dipshit because we got tired of having to use his name. Now I barely remember his name, it’s just dip shit
Then one day she got tired of his crap, beat the shit out of him, so now we just call him dip
Imagine one would genuinely not care about being called dipshit under the given circumstances. Context and intent are more important than the choice of words. I can’t call something retarded, but I can call it demented. Crazy is fine, slow isn’t. If it were about people and slurs, both words would be banned, but only one is, leaving the feeling of oppression under the banner of Good rather than it being actually about change for the better.
It’s a very interesting take that really makes you look at things from a different perspective, but it kinda breaks down if you think about it. If this person really was saying it like a pronoun with no offense intended, and they were using it to refer to half of everyone they spoke to, and it was how other people referred to that person themself too, then it would quickly seem fine to me. If everyone is calling people dipshit all the time then it quickly becomes nothing to care about
I disagree. If I don’t like being called dispshit, the thing to do is not call me dipshit. Your intent stops mattering the moment you know how I prefer to be referred to and actively decline to respect it.
At the risk of bringing up a controversial topic, this principle seems to be applied inconsistently. Eg. the people who say “men are trash” and then “if it doesn’t apply to you, it shouldn’t hurt you” would probably agree with your stance, but this is inconsistent.
They’re the same kind of person that told me that I wasn’t allowed to identify as queer because it’s a slur, and I can’t call myself a tomboy because it infantilizes women. Tons of people can’t walk their talk, and anybody who says hypocrisy is absent from their demographic has a bridge to sell you.
Yup. My coworkers like to swear, and I don’t, so I just don’t swear and they do. It works out pretty well. As long as I know there’s no malice in it, it really doesn’t bother me.
The part about it not bothering you is key.
This isn’t even relevant. Swearing in general terms is not the same as referring directly to someone by a name they do not want to be referred to by.
It has the same offensive element, which is what I was getting at.
There’s a big difference between someone doing it on purpose and them doing it on accident/out of habit. As long as I know there’s no malice, I can deal with quite a bit.
some things carry more weight than others
and this falls apart when 2/3rds of that post was about after being asked to stop
Yeah it’s weird, I very much agree you should respect what people want to be called (unless maybe you feel they really lost all right to be respected, but then it’s an active choice to insult) but the metaphor misses me so much it gives me the opposite reaction. If someone calls me some word that is normal to them but usually offensive to me I just think that’s interesting that their culture is different for that word.
Of course the non-asshole reaction here is to just say “ah sorry, it’s a normal non insulting way of calling people where I’m from, didn’t mean to offend you” and do your best to stop using it, but somehow this makes it harder for me to reach that conclusion.
How strong is this example?:
If someone calls me some word that is normal to them but usually offensive to me I just think that’s interesting that their culture is different for that word.
What comes to mind here, Australian-cunt?
That’s super interesting agreed. Like how the heck did they get on the C U Next Tuesday train?
…but it wasn’t used to slur us domestically, so we can be neutrally bemused.
(PS, I’m not super sensitive about language usually, just looking to draw the tightest possible parallel)
Yeah, it’s kinda like cunt with aussies and brits.
Jesus fucking cunt, you cunt just drop cunt at every cunt you see or some cunts gonna get a cunt in their cunt about it
Oi! You takin the piss, ye cunt?
Nah cunt
wanker
You could say intent matters.
Depends. If you specifically have trauma from being called dipshit then it doesn’t.
Yeah, well… in this scenario where dipshit is an everyday word and used without malice, it’s difficult to see how someone could have trauma from that.
“He” is an everyday word used without malice, but drag still doesn’t like being called it.
Oh hey, haven’t seen you around, I hope you’re doing well
Lemmy… Isn’t a great place for trans people. Drag had to take a step back.
Drag was being harassed by someone who had a problem with the way drag talked someone down from suicide. Ada promised to help, but didn’t. Drag didn’t know, and thought the harasser was lying. When drag showed a screenshot of Ada saying she’d stop the harassment, Ada took offence. She thought she was being called a liar. Drag had no idea she broke her promise, drag thought it was all the harasser’s fault. Drag got banned from Blahaj.
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Have everyone, even people you care about and who supposedly care about you, call you something you hate for four or five decades. And they know you hate it, and you know they know, and they keep doing it anyway.
It’s not the name, it’s the incessant implication that you and your wishes do not matter.
I’m personally kind of reminded of how “faggot” and “dyke” are being “taken back” and used jokingly/sarcastically, but I still get really uncomfortable if someone uses them with me. They’ll say “oh I don’t mean it offensively!” But it’s not really up to you to decide what’s offending another person or not.
I have one friend who uses the R word and insists it’s to reclaim the term, but they almost exclusively use it in a self-degrading manner. They seem to be the only one in their circle that uses the word, and they’ve had lively arguments over whether or not it’s a word to reclaim. I’ve stayed out of it but when the only person I’ve encountered who says they’re trying to reclaim a slur seems to be using it to degrade themselves, I question if it’s worth even trying to reclaim. It’s just a word, let it be entirely forgotten to the sands of time like “forsooth” and any other words I don’t know because they’ve left virtually all people’s lexicons
I can be such a forsooth sometimes.
That’s how I feel about the Q
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Not sure what the link is for, I’m fine with people using it in their own life and media. But using it referring to me or in reference to lesbians makes my skin crawl as someone who used to be called that by homophobic teenagers
I grew up with those words being common and I hope they don’t come back in any form. They’re very damaging even to straight males. But I’m sure as long as there’s a counter culture they won’t go away.
Case in point, I’ve been getting really into Latin dance, taking group classes, taking private classes, etc. the people that I see dance that look amazing are having a lot of fun with the dance and the music, the body movements, everything. When I try to move a certain way with my hips there’s this fucking voice in my head that’s snickering saying “gay” and if I can get out of my own fucking head and just feel the music, feel myself and connect with who I’m dancing with I have a great time and I get a lot of compliments. I hate that even when I know it’s wrong and even completely illogical the fear of being perceived as feminine or weak is something that I have to struggle with on a personal level.
I’ve been transitioning for 10 years and these thoughts still haunt me sometimes 🙃
Yeah, it’s like people say “Please don’t call me that,” and instead the person who called them that hears “You did something wrong for calling me that,” and they get defensive. It’s one of those things that, once you notice, you’ll see it everywhere. Not just about nicknames. It could be anything. It’s like no matter what you say in response they just view it like you’re angry or saying they’re a bad person. “I know you didn’t mean anything by it, but I don’t like it and would prefer that you didn’t.” Nope. Some folks just can’t comprehend it. “I know other people are okay with it. I’m not saying you should stop calling them that.” Nope! Their ego is now in defense mode lol.
Yep, you really hit the nail on the head
instead the person who called them that hears “You did something wrong for calling me that,” and they get defensive. It’s one of those things that, once you notice, you’ll see it everywhere.
And not just about language and people addressing each other.
This phenomenon has been enhanced and amplified with online discussion, so that now we all “choose” to spend our time around people and spaces that reflect how we already feel about a variety of things. So that as soon as you encounter someone outside of that comfort zone who has different preferences, you will see it as stressful and hostile.
In the Great Before Times, when people talked to each other face-to-face, we all learned pretty fast that we need to be compromising and thoughtful and actually listen to each other without presumption of hate or hostility, or we get pushed away from people and end up alone. Or punched in the snotlocker.
Whats removed? I have no idea what this post is about.
It appears on my instance, FWIW.
Oh I didnt even realise it was actually removed by the instance. I thought removed was literally the slur and I didnt get it.
I’m going to type removed to see if it appears for me.
Edit: wasn’t expecting that.
A bundle of sticks
Oh I didnt realise it was used as anything other derogatory. Crazy
His grandmother calls him a f@@@@t at the table?
I once had someone tell me very very earnestly that the word Queer - a word I literally marched under in protest - was the worst most horrible slur ever, then turn around and use fruit.
Baby comm members need naptime methinks
Some older folks have a genuine visceral reaction to “queer” because, whether it’s been taken back or not, you can’t just psychologically undo a lifetime of that word having been weaponized against you.
Tbf, that word in it’s original definition literally means “Weird” or “Unnatural”. Like: “A circle in the triangle factory? How queer!”
As for all the other words and their association with LGBTQ I have no clue.
I’m fine with it as an adjective, not a noun, which I’m aware is a pretty fine distinction for a lot of people.
But I also use it exactly because of the reason you describe.
I don’t just want scrubbed white monogamous wealthy gay men like Peter Thiel and Neal Patrick Harris to be free, I want everyone to be free, particularly when their self expression is highly unusual.
There never needs to be a square liberation movement, but there will always be a need for queer liberation.
“Is it possible to learn this allegory?”
“Not from the Daily Wire.”
This is obviously about Australians calling their mates “cunts”.
hey cunt!
I think both is problematic.
If you know that dipshit is not meant in a harmful way by the other person, then why do you care being called it?
Same on the other side, if you know the other person wouldn’t like to be called dipshit, why would you call them that?
I really think they both have problems that they need to address within themselves.
This is just victim blaming. Replace “dipshit” with a slur. This is literally you arguing the paradox of tolerance. The post isn’t saying to ascribe malice. If someone calls me something I don’t like, I ask them not to. I’m not saying they did something wrong. I’m asking politely for them to respect a boundary. If they continue to do it intentionally, they’re an asshole. Your boundary can’t be “I’m allowed to call you whatever I want.” That’s intolerant, and there is no reason we should be forced to tolerate the intolerant.
Unless you are a serious believer in the paradox of tolerance, and that you must tolerate everyone regardless of how they treat you in return, there is no way you can actually believe your own argument.
Studies show self esteem is more impacted by the values a person grew up with than their own values. That means most of the time, developing or changing your own values doesn’t increase self esteem. You need to be respected in a way that makes sense in the culture you grew up with. Some people can overcome their birth culture, but not many.
Yes. One has a problem of being called dipshit…the other is one.
You make an interesting point about intent, but I think the missing part is trust. If I trust a person’s intent, then their actions matter less in terms of a reason for feeling hurt. But, how many people does a typical person trust that way? Even so, after being confronted with the unintended consequences of their actions, they should realign their actions with their intent in the face of that new information.
Definitely agree. It depends on the situation and context/situational clues.
Remember that we are talking about a metaphor here, the “actual” situation that is talked about is people calling trans femme people “dude” or “bro”.
I know a bunch of people who really just use these words all the time on everyone and never were they trying to say that a woman they call that is actually a man. I suppose it’s possible and happens sometimes, but I imagine it’s very rare.
That’s not how it works at all.
The person being addressed has an issue and reasonably has requested an accommodation that costs nothing.
The other person says nah, can’t be bothered, I don’t care how you feel. Suck it.
These are not the same thing.
Edit: words.
It doesn’t cost nothing though.
If a person habitually calls everyone “dipshit”, they need to pay close attention every time they speak with that person, making sure to think about every word coming out of their mouth and making sure none of these is “dipshit”.
Just try speaking to someone and never using “the” ever, it’s incredibly hard. If you’re used to speaking in a certain way, it’s very hard to change and takes a lot of mental work. And it’s ok if it’s one word with one person… but what if everyone decides a word or multiple words isn’t fine to them? It gets harder and harder.
This is not a complete non-issue like it’s being treated.
“It’ll be hard but I’ll try.”
A lot of people have a hard time admitting they’re wrong or don’t know.
As I’ve already said multiple times, that is the reasonable approach. For some reason everyone thinks I’m for the continuing of people being called dipshit in this situation.
Actually I think the more people “banning” the word (so to speak), the easier it is to change your patterns.
Take the N word, many many white people around the 25-40yo range used to let it fly, mostly in an eminem type sense rather than a racist (ykwim) sense, and those people have almost all changed by now to not say it anymore because nobody is cool with it.
Meanwhile, my dad, my grandma, and one trans person I know, are the only three people who have ever said “stop calling me dude.” I say it every 3rd sentence to literally everyone, including my mom who I am not calling a “male human” when I say “dude,” I legitimately cannot stop saying it, especially since I only have to do it when talking to those three specific people, and I disagree with my dad that “it’s disrespectful,” and I disagree that it is a gendered term (in this context, it can be, like “how you guys doing” is different from “this is the guy’s bathroom” and anyone denying this is purposefully obtuse.)
I have no scientific basis for this of course but that’s my theory anyway.
Definitely.
I just thought it important with my comment to counteract the sentiment of “fuck what the person that is wrong feels”. That is exactly what is causing the resistance most of the time. Yes, sure, they shouldn’t be saying “dipshit” to that other person. But telling them it’s no problem when they themselves know that it’s a huge problem for them is just antagonizing them, effectively.
Sure, but then there’s a difference between dipshit and dude, if we drop this false equivalency. At that point, where the word is innocuous and not intended to offend, it is sort of unreasonable to ask the person to change their entire speech pattern simply because you’re unreasonably offended by the word. It’d be like being offended by someone calling you “yo” when asking something like “Hey yo you have the time,” it’s unlikely that person will be willing or able to acquiesce your request to stop calling them “yo” and only call them by their proper name or gender, I’m simply going to say “yo” again in 5min regardless of if either of us want me to or not. Actually I’m entirely likely to say “yo dude” at the beginning of every sentence lmao.
That’s why I wrote my initial comment.
They both need to acknowledge that they’re unreasonable. Dropping the metaphor.
It’s completely understandable that one person has trauma regarding gender and thus unreasonably feels offended by an innocuous word like “dude”. And thus, if you respect that person, it’s totally reasonable to try to accommodate them and not use “dude” when possible.
At the same time, the person requesting it needs to be aware that their request is unreasonable in the way that you just described, and thus it’d be reasonable for them to say “please don’t say dude to me, but if you can’t, it’s not that bad because I know this is my issue to be so offended by an innocuous word”.
Honestly though that just shakes out to “I still say it every 5 seconds, and for the first few times I follow it up with ‘shit, sorry’ but then I forget that too next time we chill.”
It’s literally so bad that the best answer is actually “we just don’t talk then.” And that’s fine, tbh. I’m too ADHD for relationships that require that.
Not wanting people to do things to you is not wrong. I don’t want people to defecate on me, even in an affectionate or accidental way, even though it’s not harmful. Is that wrong?
I don’t want you to walk next to me on the street. The view of you pisses me off.
Is that wrong? Or am I allowed to tell you where you shall walk?
If the person truly doesn’t mean no offense with “dipshit” but you still take offense from it, that’s what I’m talking about.
Same as walking on the street, if you don’t want to see the person, just don’t go on the street close to them. If you don’t want to hear something they’re saying then don’t speak to them, avoid them.
I already said that if someone doesn’t want to be called dipshit, then there’s no reason to keep calling them that.
It feels like your looking for a way to be offended. If someone told me they don’t want me to walk next to them, I wouldn’t walk next to them because we should be allowed to control a space around ourselves. If someone said they don’t like looking at me, that’s solved by them not looking at me.
Reasonably remove yourself from a situation if you can. Don’t harass people. Treat people how they want to be treated. Work together to solve problems. This is stuff children learn, it’s not hard. Because the problem with your logic is that you can say “I’m allowed to invade your personal space. It’s on you to leave.”
But, because you want to feel offended, you will likely say “Oh, what if my personal space is five miles around me what then?!?” to which I would roll my eyes, say ok, and let you enjoy your zero friends.
that’s solved by them not looking at me.
That’s exactly what I’m saying here. The one that doesn’t want to be called dipshit should remove themselves from the situation where they’re called dipshit, i.e. cut the person out of their lives.
I’m not offended, I’m just saying that policing someone else’s speech is the same as asking them to leave your general vicinity, i.e. not particularly reasonable.
It isn’t wrong to police certain speech, unless you think it’s okay to threaten harm to people. We put limits on what is allowable, regardless of what you think. We judge people for what they say. All you’re arguing is that the person calling people Dipshit should be allowed to call people Dipshit… And they are? There are no laws about calling people Dipshit or anything. Hell, you can yell slurs at people in most places. That doesn’t make it right. It doesn’t make them not a horrible person.
You keep looking worse for wanting to call people anything you want without being judged. Do you get that yet?
Of course it is okay to threaten harm to people. “Policing speech” is exactly that, “threatening harm to people”. If you police someone’s speech, the implied threat is something like “if you don’t change your speech, I’m going to make your life harder/remove certain benefits from you/reduce your social status”, all of which is “harm”.
Okay, enjoy your zero friends.
Yikes
