Incel is just a pejorative that makes them get even more blackpilled. Use “emotionally unstable” or even “constitutionally weak”, because if they knew the real issue, they’d be more predisposed to actually fixing themselves so that they can also get laid.
Also, legalize sex work. Just get them laid. Watch the alt right and fascism crash harder than a drunk driver speeding at night.
Sex ain’t gonna fix 'em.
Therapy will though, which is why framing and semantics are important.
Then again, I’m a humanist. I humanize.
but it will make them less celabete
But it won’t make them better people.
I wouldn’t use humanity as a measuring stick for goodness. Our greatest achievements are more proof to the contrary.
Pretty fucked up to think that sex workers should be subjected to a bunch of misogynists.
There’s a disconnect with capitalism and culture. Getting laid isn’t going to fix that.
Sex workers can choose their clients, if they want to take a misogynists money, what the fuck business is it of yours?
deleted by creator
See… you’re pretty much aggressively agreeing with me and that’s fucking ridiculous, but also clown shit.
In this thread a bunch of people are suggesting that sex workers would/ should take on clients that have a higher than average probability of hurting them… failing to acknowledge the fact that sex workers may or may not take on a particular client.
The overall sentiment behind the comments like that is putting an obligation on to sex workers, “fuck this guy and save the world.”
Sex workers can say, “no” to a potential client just as well as they can say “yes.”
There’s also several places that already have legal sex workers; yet here we are with this problem.
Maybe sex workers should also keep a gun in a drawer, or better yet hire a bodyguard
A few dead abusive johns will go a long way to cleaning up the scene
Also, why do we assume that them having sex with a sex worker will magically fix the serious mental issues they’re facing? Will they suddenly become likeable dudes that women want to be with after that sex worker experience? I’m pretty sure Elon has had sex with a few sex workers. Let’s ask him…
100% agreed. Who’s to say they don’t punch a sex worker in the face and determine that they enjoy the experience?
But at the end of the day, the burden falls onto the sex workers right? Voters and informed citizens shouldn’t have any input…
/s
Sex work should be subject to protections under the law, including the law, the courts and the healthcare system - rather than subject to persecution, ostracization and having to fend for themselves outside of the law. They’d rather want sex motels decked with panic buttons and security on guard.
Think before you assume you’re actually concerned for someone’s well being, and if you think continued illegality will somehow eradicate sex work - let me remind you that it hasn’t worked thus far. Please reconsider your stance.
Again, just because a bunch of assholes on lemmy think that sex workers should bear the burden of fixing the worlds’ incles; doesn’t mean I need to agree with that idea.
If they want to take that task upon themselves; that’s their call. If they don’t want to take that task on, that’s also their call.
You’re going on about the legality of sex work… different discussion.
No, it was a side argument regarding mental health. Fixing mental health is an everybody issue, especially when people are products of their environment. Having a healthy sex life is part and parcel of improving mental health, on top of exercise, a good diet and actually handling or leaving toxic environments.
You’re not able to see my main point because you want people to suffer, because you think they deserve to suffer, because you want to feel superior and calling me an asshole indirectly at the same time because you’re too much of a pussy to tell me directly.
So the only asshole I see here is you.
Fixing mental health is an everybody issue
No, it’s really not. People with mental health issues have absolutely no fucking business trying to fix some other person’s mental health issues. It’s NOT your place to tell individuals what they should or should not be doing. It’s NOT your place to tell people how to live their lives.
You’re not able to see my main point because you want people to suffer,
What in the hell is wrong with you? You’re the one who wants to force sex workers into fucking incels “to benefit society.”
because you think they deserve to suffer,
LMFAO - show me where that is in anything I’ve said… I’ll be waiting.
because you want to feel superior and calling me an asshole indirectly
If it makes you happier to call you an asshole directly - fine, you’re an asshole and I think you’re dumber than dog shit too.
Tt;dr
Seek therapy instead of trying to get it out of Lemmy comments.
‘don’t call me incel or I’ll meme even harder’
XD
They’ll remind isolated with weakened impulse control because of ignoring their mental health - which is the problem I was eluding to.
But hey, your cathardic Schadenfreude is all that matters. I wonder what that says about you.
You joke, but this is what actually goes through their heads.
I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what goes through their heads. Been making a damn near academic study of them since stormfront took over 4chan
“De-radicalization is a noble, worthy line of research,” she said. “But the existing evidence from that field of study suggests that prevention is easier and more effective than trying to pull these people out once they’re already in.” Potential strategies might include fostering better digital and media literacy, i.e., teaching kids to be cognizant of the content they’re consuming online. Exposure time is another key issue.
The education system world-wide is quite bad. Yes, it’s better than nothing, but still, its not good. Media and online literacy are part of the smallest subset of curriculums. As a whole, the education system fails at preparing most people for life. It’s even bad at preparing people for a vocation, its seemingly intended goal.
With better education, traditional mindsets would be much less common. I mention this because in my opinion the major cause of being an involuntary celibate and considering that status a problem, is traditionalism. That attaches self-worth to achievements in life and tightly couples success with partnership and parenthood.
Better education creates more free thinkers and independent individuals who are not easily controlled or swayed by popular narrative. They are not immune to it, nobody is, but giving humans a toolset for critical reasoning can go a long way.
That attaches self-worth to achievements in life and tightly couples success with partnership and parenthood.
I am highly skeptical of a viable alternative here. Self worth is strongly tied to the quality of our social relationships. Our social relationships depend significantly on our achievements. People want to be around other people who are succeeding, because they know that successful people can help them also be successful. Sure, your mom will always love you, hopefully… But who else?
There are countless alternatives and everybody has to find what that means for them. For example I have no real achievements to speak of. Sure, you could look at my paycheck and say “that person successful”. You could look at where I live and say “you’re successful”. You could look at where I vacation and say “you’re successful”. But what does that mean? It might mean something to you because you attribute some kind of value to it, but I don’t. My self-worth is attached to how I treat others (or how I don’t), how I view the world, how I will leave it when I’m gone and the things I tried to do before ending up as fish or worm-chow.
If you feel like you have to live up to some kind of metric of success setup by other people, that’s fine. I hope that makes you happy. It wouldn’t make me happy, but I’m not you.
I don’t feel like I have to live up to some arbitrary metric of success set up by others. I am aware of the fact that others will be interested in knowing me based on my achievements. For example, if I have the achievement “earn enough money to support myself”, other people will want to be around me than would otherwise. These are nice people whose company I enjoy, so I am going to try to keep earning this achievement.
If I can say “I have run a marathon” or “I placed 3rd in my community chess competition”, these things indicate that I have positive attributes which other people will find attractive, like fitness, consistency, intelligence, and an interest in community events. I also want to spend my time with people who have cultivated these traits - so when someone tells me that they once meditated for 24 hours straight, I am impressed and am more interested in knowing them because I intuit that spending time around them will imbue me with some of that potential. Meanwhile, if someone tells me that they spend their free time watching reality tv reruns, I am less interested in knowing them, because I am not interested in becoming more like them.
I’ve had friend groups where nobody knows which job the other person had. Somebody could’ve been a CEO or a cleaner. It didn’t matter. We went to the same concerts together, hung out in bars and the beach together, had deep political discussions and also shot the shit.
At no point did I think “wow, if this person hadn’t told me they went skydiving, I’d never hang out with them”. We happened to have the same sense of humor, watched some of the same shows, did similar activities, and were open to others vision of the world. I can’t even remember their “achievements”, just that they were nice people to be friends with.You may require achievements and some mix of attributes you attach to those achievements in order to hang out with people. That’s fine. Not everybody’s the same.
The term “incel” doesn’t really make sense. It’s not involuntary, by any definition of the word that I’ve seen.
Almost anyone can find a partner simply through effort. Diet, exercise, hygiene, etiquette, dressing nicely, socializing, actively seeking a partner. Notice something about that list? Pretty much everyone can do those things. It’s just a matter of effort.
Yes, there are some exceptions, for example from people with severe disability, but those people rarely call themselves “incels.” The majority are people who are perfectly capable of doing these things.
If you don’t practice basketball and you don’t even go to the tryouts, you don’t get to say that your not making the team was “involuntary.”
The bit you’ve missed off your strange list is being someone a woman would want to be around. Incel fits perfectly because they think they should just get women with no effort whatsoever.
You missed something important in that list, in typical incel fashion.
I notice a severe lack of ‘working on self and mental health’ amongst other really important things that were missed in that incredibly short list. Which is the central problem with an Incel. It’s a central problem with many things.
Also just finding someone isn’t an instant sign of successful in relationships. There are plenty of dysfunctional relationships that are evidence that a person might even be more healthier alone and working on self in order to set standards on finding better relationships than just be in such a relationship all just to avoid being labelled involuntary celibate.
Personally I always disliked the word Incel as a stand-in for antisocial personality disorder. Cuz really that is what it is. Sex or no sex. They have the same attitude even if they were getting some. They just complain about the lack of sex (or have poor view about women in general) cuz that’s the only symptom they usually notice and come up against that might be hinting there is a deeper problem with themselves.
As someone who was previously involuntarily celibate, I have to say that this comment really misses the actual problem, which is mental health. I had basically been suffering from some combination of depression, social anxiety, and high functioning autism from around age 8. This didn’t leave me with much in the way of friends or social skills, but it didn’t reduce in the slightest the horniness I felt.
To me, trying to figure out how to get women to have sex with me felt like dying of thirst on a desert island covered in land mines. In my constantly precarious mental and social situations, I was always terrified of trying anything because I feared that doing the wrong thing would lose me the few friends (ie, acquaintances who tolerated me) that I had. And I feared that letting on to anyone that I had any sexual interest in anyone ever - that I had any sexual urge at all - would lead to everyone I knew immediately abandoning me. And this, I was quite sure,would result in my own death via suicide. This was the case to the point that, one time, my friends asked me if I was gay, probably assuming I was closeted. They were right. I was closeted. I just wasn’t gay.
So since I couldn’t talk to anyone in real life about my problem, I turned to the internet. I ended up in /r/seduction and… was immediately grossed out. It was weird and manipulative and unnatural and and just generally unappealing to me as someone who was committed to treating other people with basic human dignity. So instead I turned to the normal/liberal/leftist side of the internet, which was… unhelpful to say the least.
Saying that it is voluntary assumes that the steps needed are straightforward and obvious. But you might as well say that primitive tribes were voluntarily living without electricity for 200,000 years. After all, you just have to spin a magnet! Just put the work in! What’s wrong with them?
Saying that it is voluntary assumes that the steps needed are straightforward and obvious.
This is a social problem, so the solution is to look at what successful people do and copy that. If that’s not straightforward and obvious, then nothing is straightforward and obvious. This is exactly the same thing primitive tribes did, and every one of your ancestors did. It is a process of learning, which makes it similar to science, but it requires no knowledge that you can’t get from just personal observations, completely unlike electricity.
You say that you couldn’t talk to anyone IRL about your problem, because of your social anxiety and autism, but that’s also a matter of effort. Rather than working on overcoming your social anxiety first, you went straight to seduction. That’s skipping all of the groundwork, and you knew it at the time. Choosing a plan that is guaranteed to fail is a voluntary choice.
This is a social problem, so the solution is to look at what successful people do and copy that.
This is how the pick up artist community started. Be careful what you wish for.
Literally just saying how things are, not how I wish them to be. The straightforward and obvious solution for one person is often not the best, in general. But it’s still a solution for that person.
This is a social problem, so the solution is to look at what successful people do and copy that.
Then the question becomes (1) who is successful? Most people are not advertising every romantic encounter they have. Least of all to the weird kid who doesn’t talk to anyone. (2) Of the things they do, what makes them successful? Many of the black pill incels seem to have found the answer here, which is “be tall” and “have a strong jawline”. This is similar to questions about “how can I be well liked?” or “How do I make oodles of money?” There are a million possible answers, each as plausible-sounding as the last, all contradictory. And following any one line of advice requires a significant commitment of time and resources before you see results. (3) What do they actually do? It is very rare to actually see someone ask someone else out on a date, or go for a first kiss, or to hear how they flirt on a first date. These are private things, and therefore are difficult to emulate.
You say that you couldn’t talk to anyone IRL about your problem, because of your social anxiety and autism, but that’s also a matter of effort. Rather than working on overcoming your social anxiety first, you went straight to seduction. That’s skipping all of the groundwork, and you knew it at the time. Choosing a plan that is guaranteed to fail is a voluntary choice.
This very much was not obvious to me at the time. I was also working on my social anxiety and social skills, but any sort of solid framework or set of steps where one thing led to another was completely opaque to me. Meanwhile, it took me about a decade after I realized that I needed to improve the way I connected with others until I actually managed to get laid - a lot of that time I was a teenager where it was unlikely to happen anyway, so let’s cut that time in half and say 5 years. Can you really say that spending 5 years overcoming social anxiety, while agonizing over your lack of a sex life is a voluntary lack of sex? If someone spends a decade struggling with depression and couldn’t get a job, would you say they were voluntarily unemployed during that time?
Seriously, the idea that there is no such thing as “involuntary” celibacy because you can just work on yourself completely misses the fact that these people have real problems.
I was talking about effort being key, and these questions obviously come from somebody who didn’t even try. All you have to do is lift your head up and shift your eyes slightly and actually look at what other people are doing. I know this stuff doesn’t come naturally to an autistic person, and so it requires even more effort. Did you try to find a self-help book for how to improve your social skills? It’s not like this is a new problem. Dale Carnegie wrote How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936, and I doubt you’re older than that.
Can you really say that spending 5 years overcoming social anxiety, while agonizing over your lack of a sex life is a voluntary lack of sex?
It’s not about voluntary/involuntary at that point. In my original analogy, if you practiced basketball for 3 weeks, you might not make the team, but you wouldn’t call that “involuntary”. You just hadn’t put in the required effort. Calling it “involuntary” makes it somebody else’s fault, as if it wasn’t up to you. But it’s not the basketball coach’s fault that you didn’t make the team. And it’s not women’s fault that you were unhappy with your sex life. It was your own bad previous decisions that caused it. If you failed a math test because you didn’t study, you wouldn’t say that you “involuntarily” failed it. This is true even if you didn’t understand that you needed to study. We simply don’t use the word “involuntary” in that way.
Seriously, the idea that there is no such thing as “involuntary” celibacy because you can just work on yourself completely misses the fact that these people have real problems.
The truth is the truth, whether it makes people feel bad or not. Almost everybody has problems, and they all still have to figure out how to live their own lives. Because most people realize that they need to do something themselves to achieve their goals, and they can’t simply shift the blame on to others.
Did you try to find a self-help book for how to improve your social skills? It’s not like this is a new problem. Dale Carnegie wrote How to Win Friends and Influence People in 1936
I did try that actually, and I’ve read that book several times. Each time I come back to it because “it’s a classic”, and each time I roll my eyes at how trite, unhelpful, and sometimes manipulative the advice is. It’s a parade of funny tidbits that an already social person noticed about the way they already acted. It is, quite simply, not a good book on learning social skills or overcoming social anxiety. At all. Which is kind of my point - if this is the book on the topic that everyone recommends, and it is such hot trash, then someone who doesn’t know what they are doing is gonna have a hard time figuring out what to do. Of course, there are other books - but now the floodgates are open, and you now must wade through thousands of books on social skills, social anxiety, becoming confident and charismatic, the brain chemistry that causes your depression, how a new diet can fix your mood issues, how it’s all in your head, it’s not about how you act but how you dress, about 500 different inspirational figures who overcame their own neuroticism and became captains of industry, etc. Soon you are more messed up and turned around than you were before you started.
Calling it “involuntary” makes it somebody else’s fault
If I am walking through the forest and a sink hole opens up underneath me, and I fall in and can’t get out, I am involuntarily in that hole. Not everything has to be someone’s fault. Sometimes things are just shitty.
And it’s not women’s fault that you were unhappy with your sex life.
I never blamed women for my sex life. Mostly because blaming half the human population for something is silly - there is no way that many people could effectively coordinate to conspire against me. I also never blamed any particular woman for not being interested in me - after all, there were many women I was similarly uninterested in, and though I didn’t understand exactly what was unappealing about me, I accepted that they could have their own preferences and were entitled to that.
What I did do was develop a complex about how I was fundamentally broken as a human being which led me to consistent suicidal ideation throughout my adolescence. So, I mean, that was fun.
It was your own bad previous decisions that caused it.
Ah yes, my terrible previous bad descion of being bullied and socially ostracized as a child. Thank you for telling all the 8 year olds out there that the fact that they have no one they feel they can trust in their lives is their own fault.
If you failed a math test…
A more apt analogy would be if you failed a reading test because you have dyslexia which was never diagnosed and for which you never received appropriate support. And then the school just kept pushing you through the grades as you failed every single test and fell further and further behind.
Almost everybody has problems, and they all still have to figure out how to live their own lives.
Well sure. But I’m not going to tell a subsistence farmer in Sierra Leone that they are voluntarily poor because they could just risk life and limb to illegally immigrate to Europe and then work there until they can finagle legal citizenship, get a job as a janitor and work their way up the corporate ladder until they are CEO of BMW. And I’m not going to tell someone with only one leg that they voluntarily can’t walk on two legs, since clearly they could just make their own fully functional prosthetic just like Boston Dynamics made. Yeah, everyone is living a life, and they can’t expect sweet baby Jesus to just step in and solve all their problems. But at the same time, having problems isnt the same as choosing to have those problems which is what “voluntary” means.
If I am walking through the forest and a sink hole opens up underneath me, and I fall in and can’t get out, I am involuntarily in that hole.
That’s not how we use the word, though. Nobody calls that “involuntary” if it’s just a hole that happened to be there. If somebody put you in the hole, then it’s involuntary. The way “involuntary” is used in English, there is a connotation of an entity with a will that overrides your will.
If How to Win Friends isn’t a good book, then read a different one. There are even ones about relationships for autistic people now. Don’t complain that there are too many. That’s why we have ratings. When you say “the floodgates are open”, you’re just trying to blame somebody else for your lack of effort.
But from your description of it, I can tell that you didn’t actually try How to Win Friends. IIRC, the first lesson is “smile”. Then, there are other lessons like, “practice giving genuine compliments” and “use people’s names when talking to them.” Literally, all you have to do is follow the instructions, and you’ll have better results. But it sounds like you rejected the advice without trying it. Or in other words, no effort, blame the author and the people who recommended it. It’s really the same thing over and over.
I never blamed women for my sex life.
You literally described it that way in your first comment: “trying to figure out how to get women to have sex with me”. You could have said, “trying to figure out how to have sex with women,” but you didn’t. You phrased it that way because that’s how you think about it. You blamed the women, and you still do.
But boy howdy. You really want to compare yourself to starving subsistence farmers in Africa?
Overall, there is a lot of dishonesty in your last comment. I’m trying to figure out whether it’s that you simply refuse to admit the truth to yourself, or if you’re doing it intentionally.
That’s not how we use the word, though. Nobody calls that “involuntary” if it’s just a hole that happened to be there. If somebody put you in the hole, then it’s involuntary. The way “involuntary” is used in English, there is a connotation of an entity with a will that overrides your will.
The reason the term “involuntary” is used is to differentiate from voluntary celibates, like Catholic priests, who the cultural zeitgeist most readily associates with the word “celibate”. You’re reading too much into it.
Don’t complain that there are too many. That’s why we have ratings. When you say “the floodgates are open”, you’re just trying to blame somebody else for your lack of effort.
You phrased it that way because that’s how you think about it. You blamed the women, and you still do.
So you are saying I’m lazy, and also misogynistic… Seems weirdly antagonistic for what is essentially a semantics argument. Like, seriously, I’m giving you my personal lived experience, and you’re putting words in my mouth and calling me names. You’re clearly getting way too worked up over this, so I’m gonna end this conversation before your temper tantrum gets worse.
the solution is to look at what successful people do and copy that
If you’re fat it’s your fault. Just look at thin people and do the same, it’s easy.
I said it was about effort. Do you think “effort” means “easy”?
You’re talking about old times and primitive tribes which had cohesion and helped people. Nice try though.
This young men endless Pearl clutching is get tiring lol
I am not at all concerned about a group of losers crying over not getting pussy.
It’s much deeper than that. The brainrot thinking is affecting more, and younger, boys. To the detriment of US and world society. These boys need rescued, not spit on.
I mean, you should. Because they’re gonna start organizing and buying guns
I’m sure they expect others to take care of them though. Like giant house pets.
Well, everybody in the manosphere is a toxic idiot/asshole, no matter what particular brand of stupidity they follow. It does feel very similar to religion, though. Some sects might be more violent, but they all follow some made-up shit.
It is semi-religious in that every single head in the “manosphere” is just a leader of a cult of personality.
It may be true of humanity in general, but it’s definitely true of Americans that they just love themselves a good cult.
So where do we meet the devotees in the middle to try to deprogram them?
It won’t work, as long as these right wing grifters designed to draw in incels to their circles. It seems even if they get married somehow it doesn’t solve their issues, as long as the grifters convince them otherwise
Holy fuck I’m glad I’m not growing up now. This whole “incel” thong just makes me so fucking mad.
We have a subset of adolescent males who are harassed amd bullied and depressed and self-destructive, and how does the rest of socirty respond? The best they can manage is to gridgingly say things like:
You can both condemn their ideology and find it abhorrent and also remember that we need to have empathy for these people."
Many people—women especially—might find that a tall order, and Beckett-Herbert understands that reluctance. “I do understand people’s hesitancy to empathize with them, because it feels like you’re giving credence to their rhetoric,” she said. “But at the end of the day, they are human, and a lot of them are really struggling, marginalized people coming from pretty sad backgrounds. When you peruse their online world, it’s the most horrifying, angering misogyny right next to some of the saddest mental health, suicidal, low self-esteem stuff you’ve ever seen. I think humanizing them and having empathy is going to be foundational to any intervention efforts to reintegrate them. But it’s something I wrestle with a lot.”
How nice. You think maybe you should try to empathize with them and remember that they are human beings, but gee… that’s a tall order. You’re not sure if you can actually do it.
And then you have the gall to wonder why they exist - how they got to be that way. You should, if you genuinely want to do something about them, be offering them help to deal with their struggles before they even get to that stage. But no - you won’t do that. Fuck them - they’re boys, so they’re on their own.
We can care about the well-being of women and girls and also acknowledge that young men are struggling, too. Those don’t have to be at odds."
So that’s the best you can do? You “care about” girls and women but can only maybe manage to “acknowleedge” boys and men? And you still don’t understand the appeal of the manosphere?
"There is evidence that men who are short or not conventionally attractive are discriminated against in hiring.
So right there - there is evidence that one of the things the incel community complains about is in fact true.
But do you even acknowledge it? Nope.
“But there’s also a lot of evidence suggesting that this actually affects women more. Women who are overweight face a greater bias against them in hiring than men do, for example.”
You just breeze right past it and dismiss their feelings entirely, because girls and women have it worse.
Seriously, you still don’t get how we ended up with a generation of boys who think the world shits on them and girls and women get preferential treatment? Even after you just shat on them and gave girls preferential treatment?
Here’s va fucking news flash, since so many people are apparentlybtoo fucking stupid to figure itvout - if you all actually cared about thecstruggles boys are going through and listened to them and took them seriously and tried to help them, they wouldn’t have to turn to the manosphere to find someone who gives a shit about them.
It’s not complicated, so you have no fucking excuse. Stop belittling boys and treating their problems as if they somehow don’t count.
If the best you can manage is to maybe “acknoeledge” boys’ problems, even as you “care about” girls’, and you can’t even mention a problem boys experience without immediately shifting your focus away from them and to girls, then the boys aren’t the real problem - you are.
Holy shit an actual comment acknowledging the situation written about in the article?
And not only that, but showing actual empathy?
God-damn, this must be what finding actual gold feels like!
They hate women, want to rape them and remove their rights, so women, utterly predictably, hate them back. It’s not complicated. Try telling black people to empathise with the poor little white supremacists more and see how far you get.
Incels aren’t new btw. I tried to read 1984 recently and had to stop because the main character is an incel.
tried to read 1984 recently and had to stop because the main character is an incel.
Back the truck up, buddy.
Proof?
I must’ve missed the part where Winston Smith hated women and wanted to rape them and remove their rights.
Either that or you’ve blithely and inaccurately assigned a particularly noxious set of behaviors and beliefs purportedly engaged in and held by some members of a group to the group collectively, and thus to each and every member of it individually.
Which is the very definition of bigotry.
First 3 sentences I was with you all the way, then you lost me.
It’s not that difficult to understand
There was a time in our history when instant hatred of blacks was the norm too, and people then would’ve no doubt also been lost by any effort to fault the haters instead of the hated.
And before you even go there, they also would’ve been able to trot out a list of reasons why their hatred was purportedly justified.
At some point in the future (if we have a future) people will figure out that boys need and deserve help and sympathy because they too face hardships, and they’ll provide it for them, rather than just leaving them to deal with it on their own, then blaming them for turning to a bunch of toxic assholes who have made a comfortable living out of offering boys the help and support and affirmation they’re not getting elsewhere.
Until then, unfortunately, I expect to keep seeing a large chunk of society alternately disregard boys at best if not outright condemn them out of hand, then cry about the fact that they’re turning to the manosphere for support and affirmation.
Upvoting before your comment gets deleted or you get banned
US version of Japan’s Hikikomori?
What a terrible article. NEETS and lie flat movement has almost no overlap with incels.
Ostensibly the whole world has been online for enough time now. Yet everyone continues to demonstrate a remarkable lack of ability to grasp internet cultures.
It makes no sense. Like trying to explain technology to my elderly grandma. Except she knows she’s very old and out of touch. What’s everyone elses excuse. It’s made even worse because everyone else thinks they are digitial culture savvy.
It’s intentional to cause infighting and and to help build the association between neets and incels.
Ars Technica is owned by Conde Nast media conglomerate, which is owned by Advanced Publications, which is owned and controlled by the billionaire Newhouse Family.
That’s why Steve Newhouse wants these types of articles to be written, because it obfuscates truth and pushes division.
Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives
They overlap because they are all rejects and failures with no prospects.
…I’m honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not - if you’re pointing out a problematic point of view or if you’re attacking the people the article is talking about.
Since we’ve past growth now there are precious few winners in a zero sum game. Why even try, if you’re not cut to be a liar and a thief?
And what do you base that of? It’s incredibly easy to identify the cause of that overlap…
I thought school was for basic education, not getting ready for the labor market.
The point of school is to churn out workers. The government didn’t throw money into education because it felt generous.
I don’t think I need to learn chemistry and physics to get a job.
And that’s how we accidentally get chlorine gas made by the janitors
They’re worth learning to understand the universe and the history of how that knowledge was derived and/or discovered.
If it helps you get a job, all the better, but they’re worth learning for their own sake.
Ya’ll are forgetting it also doubles as childcare for all the workers you’re employing, but paid for by the state, which is why capital was behind it.
Oh, 100%. But we wouldn’t need childcare if the kids could work the factories. Unfortunately, that needs a minimum level of education.
In a democracy, you should have good schools for the simple reason as to have a people that’s actually able to carry a democracy.
deleted by creator
Hmm maybe at one point but that point is long gone
That hasn’t been the case… Ever I think. We’re still trapped in the industrial revolution’s education system - create laborers - but with a lot of extraneous bullshit tacked on in an attempt to mesh it’s obsolescence with modernity and labor-saving tech. It’s always been about controlling the workers.
Originally, school was for the nobility and (fledgling) bourgeois, so they could run their spreadsheets, wage wars, and impress people with trivia, everyone else’s education came from family tradition, neighbours (farmers talking farming stuff), or an education in the trades. Want to study geometry? At some point, the best option was to become a mason. And they would swear you to secrecy.
Universal education is a brainchild of Martin Luther, he wanted everyone to be able to read so that all could read the Bible.
Yeah but everything changed when the
Fire Nation attackedIndustrial Revolution began.
Sorry to burst your bubble. We’re all just pawns for the capitalists.
My bubble is already completely destroyed.
As always nothing will be done on a public level.
Sooooo… when are we gonna admit that men’s mental health is unfortunaly heavily tied to their career prospects?
No, not yet?
Okay I’ll keep waiting.
SOOOOOOOO……we can all admit now that socioeconomics is real. Cuz I’d hate to think anyone would think this is a new concept and would affect only one group recently and they still sit there and think they are unique to this ’phenomenon’ whilst it’s been an effect for generations already and has gone ignored for about as long. And they’ve had to just ‘deal with it’.
Cuz I’m real sick of seeing this argument like it’s not been around and affecting whole swaths of groups of people for centuries.
You can admit there’s been slaves and it’s affected their families poorly? Let’s start with that. And it’s still happening. And it’s still being brushed under the carpet and there’s still flagrant racism targeting entire communities to ignore their prospects.
For generations.
Cuz that all happened way before incels in the burbs came about.
Violence is the answer
So how would you imagine it would work out for a POC to open fire like a typical Incel does?
Depends on how good his aim is and choice of venue. Also, honkeys can help out
The only reason Luigi is still alive is he’s white.
Who is pretending socioeconomic inequality isn’t real? I agree with what you say, but I’m not sure who here you’re directing your comment at.
Buddy I know a ton of men well placed in their careers and lifestyles that eat themselves up everynight out of loneliness.
deleted by creator
How bout instead of waiting you arm up and help overthrow the EXTREMELY VIOLENT capitalist system? Go hunt a hedgefunder or private equity broker
Leftist incel vibes
No, freedom-endorsing patriot vibes
sigh
…
It’s capitalism.
Men’s well being wouldn’t be tied to career prospects if it weren’t for the rat race we are all brainwashed into since birth that is capitalism.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
Because a man’s prospects weren’t important in feudal, classical, and ancient societies?
No, they weren’t. Class was much more important. There was no class climbing prospect. You either were born into a having family or you weren’t. Even amongst peasants, men weren’t suppose to “have a career” or a prospect. You inherited whatever your family had.
There was expectations of performance, of course. There was internal competition, but no peasant would ever realistically transform into nobility via merit or otherwise.
Those ignorant of history forget that our current worldviews and values weren’t always universal. The notion of a linear career, of having prospects, to be successful, to grow from a low place and climb the social and financial rings, accumulating wealth enough to retire early then leave a lofty inheritance to children and grandchildren. All that is modern construction that is not present before the 19th century. Furthermore, the expectations that all the other poor people are lazy scumbags, but my poverty is merely a circumstantial setback is a very American exceptialism view.
So you are saying that a father of a girl at any class level in a feudal society cared not about the ability of a mate to provide for his daughter or grandchildren?
That kings and earls didn’t bring wealth and power into matchmaking calculations?
In general, no. It was a business transaction and whoever provided an appropriate dowry would get the girl. No matter their future prospects. The family didn’t care much for whatever happened to the girl afterwards. High class and nobility might’ve care for prestige and title inheritance. But otherwise it didn’t matter. We got so many historical novels with the plot point of a girl marrying a destitute nobleman and being abandoned by her original family that it is sort of a trope in the romantic period. Girl being sold by bankrupt father to save on food with one less mouth to feed was also a trope. You have to remember women weren’t valued much beyond their capacity of bearing children. They were little more than cattle for most western feudal societies.
You have worth as a human beyond your capacity to produce profit.
This is only true in a vague, wishy-washy metaphysical sense. Fine, whatever, you have intrinsic value. If that warms your cockles, more power to you.
But the extent to which other people value you is entirely dependent on what you can provide to them. This has nothing to do with capitalism. Do you think that in a socialist society, a person who refused to do any work at all - not because they couldn’t, but just because they didn’t feel like it - would be shown general love and acceptance and kindness? No! They would, at best, be tolerated and given the bare necessities to survive - but they wouldnt be celebrated. Do you think primitive tribes love and support the lazy asshole who never contributes and just expects food to be brought to them every day? No, of course not! They kick that motherfucker out when they are dead weight.
And what you “provide” for other people doesn’t have to make money. But it does need to provide some kind of value. Do you have a beautiful smile that brightens peoples’ day? Are you tall enough to reach things on the top shelf, and willing to reach them for short people? Can you make hilarious dolphin sounds at parties? Are you a supportive friend who listens to others’ struggles when they are down? No? You just sit your ass on the couch all day and watch TV and interact with basically no one? Then why the fuck would you expect anyone to value you, when you provide no value to them? This is not a capitalism problem. This is a human solution. Dead weight gets dropped. Period. Always has, always will.
…But old people can retire. As long as they dont fuck up the government
Yes? What’s your point?
I figured it was obvious
I agree. People need to learn to get away from far-fetched fantasy if that doesn’t translate to real value. I know it’s harsh, but everyone needs to deal with reality.
Capitalism probably doesn’t help, but I don’t think male alienation is really unique to this time or culture. Any time you have social hierarchy the lowest tier ends up eating a lot of shit. Our social hierarchy is very capitalist but you’d easily find the same kind of thing even in hunter gatherer societies. Socialism has plenty of hierarchy baked in as well. Anarchists are about the only ones who actively attempt to “flatten” society.
“Career prospects” in this case means that men want to feel like they’re of use to society. The issue is only tied to capitalism in the sense that the current capitalist environment doesn’t offer many of them meaningful work. I’m not sure what alternative to capitalism you imagine would solve that problem - without also giving men those same career prospects they’re currently lacking. Taking care of and providing for the tribe is what we’re hardcoded to get meaning from.
You don’t need someone to create jobs for you, people just need to do useful stuff and it will get attention. As long as work is organized, it doesn’t make sense someone would “create” a job for you. It’s all about History. These neo-aristocrats have a hold on capital, so they decide what to do.
I’m not saying that people shouldn’t care about work with this, just that no jobs are “created”.
I’ve seen so many men just suck at doing adult stuff in my life and career. It’s not a problem of men not having the opportunity to show value, it’s more that they expect to have value without providing anything. So if you feel useless, it’s more of a you problem that current media allows you to blame other people for.
Capitalism is causing some of these issues. The core issue is men expecting the world to hand them a sense of value.
Sounds like bootstrap talk to me.
In an ideal world, yes, men and women would be handed a sense of value from society.
I thought about this for a while and nuance is missing from my argument. I was thinking of a specific few men who were basically human garbage. Like talked down to women and treated them like objects, and also sucked ass at their jobs.
It’s fine to think society should give everyone a sense of value. I disagree on the everyone part.
Sometimes it helps to remember that a lot of people are actually hopelessly stupid. And this isn’t like some elitist ivory tower commentary - there is a good percentage of the population which struggles with basic problem solving, knowledge synthesis, critical thought, etc.
“Advanced capitalism” is sometimes literally called a “knowledge economy” and this has really properly fucked people who could have previously earned a fine living doing mindless physical work. And again, this isn’t like some normative statement - for most of human history this equation has been inverted, and intellectual opportunities were scarce. Honestly, part of the problem is probably very specifically that we have hit that inflection point, which is cultivating a new form of alienation for those who are on that lower cognitive tail, who both lack opportunities and are also made to feel inferior for it.
Yeah and the reason young men are finding it hard to have real life friends and end up on uncle forums is because we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
Ontop of this the constant algorithms that push specific topics to people over and over due to it keeping them on the platform and therefore generates income.
It does feel like 75% of this problem could be fixed by stopping corporate greed and fixing our local communities as whole.
I went to a Humans vs. Zombies Nerf war at a university campus a few weeks ago. A couple hundred people, real strong mix of men, women, and others. A healthy mingling of people who were clearly gun hobby adjacent and a lot of openly queer folk, which I think is really quite encouraging to see. Everyone had a good time, no issues the whole day. Good vibes all around.
At the end of the event, the student organizers tearfully announced that the school administration had decided to ban all blaster events on campus going forward. Fuck us all for trying to have a healthy good time, right?
we lost most of our “third spaces” thanks to them not making money and shutting down or being underfunded or closed if they were publicly owned.
And also shut down by female supremacist activists.
A gym started up last decade in my town, as a men’s only gym. A place for guys to come and exercise without distraction.
It got sued within the year by a woman who tried to join. It went to court. Company ran out of money before the court case closed, went bankrupt and had to close.
The case proceeded to completion, the woman won, and all the women’s groups in the area crowed about their phyrric “victory” over misogyny.
There are three women’s-only gyms in town, six in the greater geographical region. None of these have ever had men demanding to become members, because those men would be nailed to the wall for being misogynists.
This happens eventually to all “men’s spaces” that exist long enough: they are forced to no longer be “men’s spaces”, because being a “man’s space” is misogynistic.
Women’s spaces? Totally fine. Not misandric in the least.
See how “equality” works?
Edit:
Pick any third space where women’s only spaces exist, and you will also find men’s-only spaces that were sued either into nonexistence or into opening their doors for women, which caused it to no longer be a “men’s space”. From boxing clubs to smoking clubs to the f**king Boy Scouts of America, men’s spaces everywhere are being eliminated in the drive to “combat misogyny”.
Meanwhile, the president of the Girl Scouts privately admitted (can’t recall exactly when, but it was either during or shortly after the Boy Scout’s trial) that she would rather shut down the entire org than allow a single boy to join. And she was lauded for that position.
“Rules for thee, but not for me.”
That isn’t “equality” in the least. That’s blatant gender bigotry. And that is what the “black pill” is built upon - actual real-world evidence.
You want the black pill to stop existing? QUIT SHOVELLING THEM COPIOUS AMOUNTS OF AMMUNITION, FFS.
You literally implied that women fighting for the right to be included everywhere. Was about supremacy. That feminism is about supremacy. Your own words. Read your previous post. Perhaps you misspoke. But I don’t think so. And neither did most of the other people reading.
You literally implied that women fighting for the right to be included everywhere. Was about supremacy. That feminism is about supremacy. Your own words. Read your previous post. Perhaps you misspoke. But I don’t think so. And neither did most of the other people reading.
This is borderline sealioning, an explicit trolling act.
But there is a chance that your bleeding ignorance might be genuine. So I’ll bite.
The problem is that women are forcing their way into every man’s space, and preventing men from having a space of their own under cries of “misogyny”, while simultaneously fighting to keep their own spaces as women-only.
That isn’t “equality” in any shape or form. That’s gender supremacy.
A perfect example is the Girl Guides of America. Right when the lawsuit against the Boy Scouts had wrapped up and forced them to include girls, the president of the Girl Scouts admitted in private and off the record that she would rather see the entire organization shuttered permanently than allow a single boy admittance.
The same goes for shelters of all kinds, particularly those for Domestic Violence. About 70% of all non-reciprocal DV (only one person doing the hitting) is women beating up men. But of the 2,481 DV shelters in America, only TWO are for men. Nearly all the ones for women are partially to fully publicly funded, but men’s shelters are 100% privately funded because public funding is politically radioactive - the moment any politician tries to support male victims, they get painted as “violently misogynistic” by women’s groups and fail to get re-elected. Most women’s groups also refuse to discuss male victims of DV because to do so is to lead credence to the fact that they even exist.
So yes. Feminism has nothing to do with equality anymore. Feminism is straight-up gender supremacy, full stop.
It’s why I, as someone fighting for true equality, call myself an egalitarianist. I see any man being called “feminist” as nothing more than a pejorative; a mark of anti-equality shame.
How is wanting to be equal supremacist?
If you want to run a public business, the social contract has always been that you serve the public.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves” only enables the incel type behaviors. As well as belittling men. Because as a cis man, I certainly have no issue respecting a woman. Or any issue focusing on other things when they’re around. If men and boys were more familiar with interacting with women, they likely wouldn’t be bitter incels. Unable to understand why no woman wants to be around them. Like, literally.
Claiming that men/boys need to be separated because “they can’t control themselves”
Where did I say anything even remotely like this? Point it out. Quote it.
But you can’t, because I didn’t.
Quit being intellectually bankrupt - quit putting words into my mouth.
Men’s spaces is what allows men and boys to open up in ways they instinctively and unconsciously prevent themselves from doing when women are around. Males have an autonomic response around women that causes them to be more closed off, more resistant to criticism, and far less likely to demonstrate vulnerability to other men.
Men’s spaces are what allow them to better learn from other men in a space that allows them to better learn more open and accepting.
It has nothing to do with your vacuous and thought-terminating “incel” bullshit.
The irony of this reply about this subject…
The lack of awareness is what really gets me on this one. It’s almost unbelievable
He just try to justify female supremacy as a thing. Can’t take him seriously
FOUND ONE!!!
FOUND ONE!!!
Ah, a classic strategy of the intellectually bankrupt - an ad hominem. attacking the man instead of the argument.
Some of us tend to be obsessed with facts and evidence, and are not easily affected by the public shaming that arises from an intellectually bankrupt thought-terminating response. Try your strategy on someone else.
Facts and evidence are not on your side no matter how much you scream that they are… based on your singular anecdote, no less Classic brainwashed fascist incel vibes there.
Facts and evidence are not on your side
- Boxing clubs and some martial arts clubs that have existed for many decades
- Smoking clubs that have existed for centuries
- The f**king Boy Scouts of America
The evidence is out there for anyone not blinded by fact-free ideology. You just have to look.
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
Holy shit, do you have negative awareness?
No, I am facts-based.
And if you had any intellectual integrity, you would provide your argument on how my example wasn’t a stellar example of societal anti-male gender bigotry.
But you can’t.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
Ah, so yes, you do have negative awareness. Thanks for confirming.
At least I’m not demonstrating the seething levels of gender bigotry that you are, so at least I’m one better than you.
Well, the world isn’t supposed to be fair. Some random person’s actions don’t change the existence of incels. So, why would it matter? Women’s only spaces are out there because society determined so and that’s all there is to it. It isn’t anyone’s fault. Whether you want to do something about it, do it the intelligent way.
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men lol. In fact it might be better if they aren’t given the specific topic of people we are talking about in this thread. In general an increase in community locations is a good thing, but it seemed especially so for people in the intel rabbit hole. Somewhere casual they can come out of their shells and meet people in the real world!
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer. After all, suppose a city makes a nice park across the street from an incel’s apartment. Maybe they’ll leave their house and go there… but do you really think this socially awkward weirdo is gonna start striking up conversations with other people there? Do you think they are going to engage with others who say hello to them, if others interact with them at all? Yes, a lack of third spaces is a problem, but I don’t think it is the lynchpin. We are also less likely to visit third places when they do exist these days due to digital distractions. People seem to be more insular, less likely to introduce themselves to strangers and less likely to be open to strangers introducing themselves. And significant social anxiety and lack of social skills is seldom overcome simply by having a neutral environment.
What we really need is grassroots social movements dedicated to being friendly to strangers, reducing digital distractions, reaching out to men who feel left behind, and informing parents about the importance of proactively ensuring that their children have healthy social and emotional lives.
I honestly don’t think third spaces on their own are the answer.
And I would agree. Men in a group setting of only men will typically behave entirely differently than if you drop even a single woman into their midst. A man who is only among men will open up and behave and accept constructive criticism in ways that he will never do with even a single woman present. The change in behaviour a man exhibits in the presence of a woman is instinctual and unconscious, and is unable to be controlled or even moderated by the vast majority of men out there.
Having male-only spaces is absolutely essential to allowing men to behave as they would without the unconscious/instinctual pressure they would be subject to with a woman present.
Too bad these kinds of places are “misogynistic” in ways that women-only spaces are “not misandric”. The gender bigotry and hypocrisy in this dichotomy is blindingly overwhelming.
Probably why gaming bros became so popular. A time to hang out with “da boys” because there aren’t any other places you can do that without spending money.
Men don’t need men-only spaces. That only deepens the rift between sexes. It’s absolutely not needed. You can completely respect the difference in sexes and that difference is welcomed, all other matters are bullshit from society. What humanity needs is respectful spaces for all sexes, not division.
I’m not saying you are categorically wrong about the benefits of male-only spaces. But I will say that the attitude and language with which you are approaching the issue is not doing you any favors.
Honestly, it’s whether you treat each human life as important or you don’t. I don’t think those people need to be changed, they just need to look at real life instead of running away from it. But I’ll say, working as a clerk in McDonalds doesn’t sound like the greatest achievement of all time.
These third spaces don’t have to be exclusively young men
Average age of the membership was 46. That doesn’t sound “young” to me.
Some men are just eager to have a communal workout environment that doesn’t have gym thots preening their thirst trap poses all over the place
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
LOLOLOLOLOL!!!
Imagine not wanting any hot women around.
Classic MGTOW vibes here
Imagine being the guy whose primary excuse to go to the gym is to “ogle hot women”.
Yeah, you’re a real progressive guy.
The sign of a man with experience is when he’s become sick of women’s shit.
The woman I am married to - which BTW, makes me wholly ineligible for MGTOW status - is one of the few women out there I actually want to spend time with beyond social niceties. I have zero interest in the vast majority of women out there - regardless of “hotness” - because I have come to know how women in general act and react; what their motivations are and how they approach life in general. And that just makes me wholly uninterested in them.
Don’t get me wrong, I will absolutely be polite and civil to women. I have absolutely no problem socializing with them and making them feel appreciated and valued as I would any human being, regardless of gender (or fractional thereof). I just have no interest in them as women.
I feel like that’s more a problem of whatever specific gyms you are going to. Ones I go to have usually have signs up saying no cameras allowing people to just focus on their own workout. Regardless, the point is that if you want to help people overcome their “the world is against me, no woman wants me” mind set of an incel, there should be more spaces that let people interact with others outside of online algorithm controlled or bot account flooded social media platforms. Places to meet and converse with real people of any gender. All of a sudden they will probably realise that most people are actually nice. Most people don’t generally go around trying to make people feel shit or uncomfortable.
lol I would like a male version of curves, I get anxiety and think ppl think im looking at them when I zone out, its never been an issue, like they usually just smile at me and I realize it looks like im staring at them looking away, still dont like having anxiety over it. Why is it insane to think men could be more comfortable in a mens only gym like women are at womens only. The gym in my hometown before they added cardio machines was peak.
I think the whole gym influencer stuff thing becoming popular made it worse forsure, wasnt as axious til those vids of woman recording men walking past and posting them online and my gym became a maze of tripods with everyone taking 10 hours to do their sets and check their footage. (The men are the issue here too)
But also gyms have nothing to do with third spaces, ppl use them like that but I think its out of neccesity.
deleted by creator
There are many men in progressive political spaces. What?
“It’s important to remember that it’s not zero-sum. We can care about the well-being of women and girls and also acknowledge that young men are struggling, too. Those don’t have to be at odds.”
I think you need to be on a subdued position by society to be considered as “struggling”. Incels accept their condition completely and are not in a vulnerable position when related to society. Unless you call being called out for “mental health” problems as submission.
Being weak doesn’t mean you’re subdued, I bet incel’s existence is profitable to someone. All in all, I don’t wish you a time trying to “care” for these people, I don’t think they would care for you. Unless you call “care” throwing them into some mental institution for something’s sake.
Yes, I hate the way that people in media thought they could empower women by creating absolutely moronic and attractive male characters that they could sexually harass. Like, what!? That’s not the way! I think people in general need more support because we’ve sort of nullified the way support networks used to exist.
i wish i would go back to those days where i never heard of incels
That’s just ignoring the problem though. We agree there’s a huge society level problem here right?
