- cross-posted to:
- mentalhealth@lemmy.world
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so many comments claiming this post blames or makes fun of men and incels that i went back and reread the whole thing… what the fuck are the lot of you even responding to‽ there’s nothing like that in the post, and on the contrary it says men are victimized by this. Jesus, some of you are really willing to take anything as a slight. beats self reflection i guess.
it doesn’t blame men
Is your point that manosphere is not “men” but… Idk, a subspecies of a very aggressive and mean bear?
manosphere refers to the online cult created by influencers like Rogan, Tate, etc.
you’re literally doing the “if you criticize Israel you’re antisemitic” bullshit for manosphere and misandry instead.
It doesn’t blame men, except those specific men and all the men who listened or fell for them
Is that your point?
(I’m going to ignore your personal attacks.)
please point to the personal attack in my comment
you’re literally doing the “if you criticize Israel you’re antisemitic” bullshit
calling out your bullshit is not a personal attack. a personal attack is an attack on someone’s person, not their actions. i commented on your actions.
If that were true, you wouldn’t be trying to derail that conversation but you’d got back to what exactly is your point here? Because I called your point bullshit?
Lemmy becomes completely irrational whenever the words “male loneliness epidemic” appear, once you read that around here (and it shows up in the OP) you can skip the comments as nothing good will come out of the thread.
I kinda get it though
Yeah a good few people are telling on themselves by feeling called out by this.
I think there’s more to the manosphere than this.
Maybe, but I don’t think that’s relevant to this post.
Yup, that’s why tate sold the worst dating advice in the world while being a sex trafficker, ensuring repeat business.
The solution to many problems in our Society is to make fraud laws stronger and prosecute them more fully
and “get rick quick” schemes with extremely bad trading advice, which require high memberships.
weird take. There’s certainly a feminist supremacist sphere active in demonizing and diminishing “less attractive” men, and women, feminist or not, have always enjoyed the privilege of men seeking their friendship with more passion than other way around. Friendly women of low attractiveness levels have more opportunities to have their sexuality validated.
This is just a supremacist take on demonizing men further.
Are you saying the manosphere isnt targeting men’s insecurities in a bully-like fashion?
I don’t know what the manosphere is. PUA/Andrew Tate try to elevate men’s self esteem. Whether denying men’s insecurities is targetting them is grey area. Incels as a defeated group moaning to each other about defeat, get piled on with a lot of supremacist hate, mostly from women/women’s groups.
Where is the “bully like” fashion? It can’t be “acting like a role model”.
Chritofascists, who primarily serve Zionist supremacist establishment, or Feminazis, lie to their audience, but aren’t bullying their adherents. They are boosting their “deserved supremacism” by diminishing the rights/humanity of their “inferior” enemies. Supremacists sell “you too can have my advantages if you join us”. It can be wrong without it being classified as bullying.
It’s both. Both are the issue.
Which women make fun of men in a systemic way? Can you please name them so I can look them up?
Definitionally, if you’re looking at individuals it wouldn’t be systemic…
There is a systemic gender advantage of opposite gender wanting to be your friend more than the other way around.
Thank you you’re right , I used the wrong word.
Still interested to know which women prey on men’s insecurities like the Fresh & Fit podcast bros and Andrew Tate do.
Look up #KillAllMen. Don’t worry I have more. The real question is how much do you need until you admit it ??
What is it? A hashtag that anyone can make?
Go & see for yourselves.
I already know the answer. Stop being a dumbass using the action of one anonymous person to condemn tens of millions of people.
okay and that’s like maybe a couple thousand individuals on social media compared to like the what, the millions of women literally married to men and taking care of male family members etc. lol look out your window buddy
A couple thousand. It’s a couple billion that has not seen any opposition. Clearly you are willfully ignorant.
Marriage is not a debunking, when those same married women support & don’t oppose it
There’s certainly a feminist supremacist sphere active in demonizing and diminishing “less attractive” men
What convinced you of this?
probably those posts on reddit where the women are complaining about men about various things, and they dont realize its a man commenting on those subs.
be 5’ 7"
not attractive to most women (aww)
every airplane seat feels like first class
live longer on average (aww)
workout once a week and look buff
no car is too small
sleep like a king in beds of any size
women generally trust you more easily cos your presence is non-threatening
You know it’s not that bad of a trade. Y’all sixfooters have fun with the girls.
I’m not quite 5’8, and I was in the Marines, where obviously size was made to be something, especially in the infantry, but I always used to just tell dudes that I’m harder to shoot, and in the unlikely event they get me before you, I’m easier to carry to safety. Fucking win-win as far as I’m concerned.
And with those days long behind me, and married with a short wife and hort kids of my own, I’m the biggest thing in the world to them. So just find an equally short person to spend your life with. Or don’t, nothing matter!
I’m gay and everyone is the same height to me once you get 'em horizontal
It’s true. Women trust me partially because…wtf am I going to do to them? Sit on her head? Bite her ankles? So, I’m one of the only two being driven by my co-worker nowadays. Bonus points for having given up on relationships, because even if I was in the mood for those, I don’t have time for no personal life.
Contrapoints has a really great video about this.
lol, quite literally blaming men for everything as usual.
Mysoginists don’t represent men, like misandrists don’t represent women.
Honestly you arent fucking wrong.
If a woman has a series of bad experiences with a series of asshole dudes and decides she is done with it and would rather be single everyone claps because she is empowered. If a guy has a series of bad experiences with a series of just horrible women and decides he is done with it and would rather be single he is an incel and men are the problem.
Some dudes are incels because being a garbage human being with no regard for the feelings of others isnt limited to men. Women can say and do cruel shit too. I watched my 5’3 buddy ask a girl out and get “Ewww” instead of “No thank you” this shit doesnt happen in a vacuum.
i never heard of a single man being called an incel lol, only when start saying incel things, then yes. nobody cares otherwise
& here we have a fine example. What are these “Incel things” ?
Well men ARE society’s punching bags, society either wants men dead or enslaved. (E.g: Conscription)
Update: Well look at that immediate dislike
What is “manosphere”?
basically toxic and hyper masculinity encapsulated into a community, a cult of sorts.
An insulating community of conservative influencers and their fans, focusing on giving lost males “meaning” by feeding their ego.
It’s a sphere made out of naked men. It’s a dangerous weapon because of its incredible sexiness.
HOT.
I think they mean toxic masculinity
a modern day cult and not even a classy one.
Isn’t this basically what religion does, as well?
Some religions.
At-will employment too.
“You’re nothing special - easily replaceable. I’m doing you a favour by letting you have this job.”
Basically anywhere where a power imbalance is an intended feature, not a necessary evil.
how else does incel communities capture more incels into the fold, by extension conservative politicians.
Some religions do, yes, and it works, which is why they do it. The important thing is to identify these behaviors and find social groups that will empower you instead of disempowering you.
Unfortunately, humanity is better at making people feel small than building them up. And the folks who succumb to this are likely already in a compromised state so it will be hard, if not impossible, for them to pull themselves out alone.
In a broader sense, it is what cults do.
“Nobody accepts you… but us” “You will die alone… unless you help us” and so forth.
or… “They just can’t take a joke… but we can”
Exactly this. It’s the same playbook for more than just those two groups.
It was an abusive exwife in my case, but yes. It’s abuse all the same. It does the same thing.
It isolates, it breaks you down, it makes you forget who you were, and then when you least expect it, they are no longer dependable for anything and you have nothing left.
And they feel nothing.
“OMG these people are incel losers they have no worth and deserve to die!”
“Incel losers” commits a horrific crime because they were treated like they have no worth and deserve to die
“OMG can you believe it? We should bully them harder, that will fix things!”
Maybe the fucking problem is people treating these poor people so horribly. We want to PREVENT such things happening which means addressing the root of the problem and trying to catch people who could fall into those destructive manoaphere circles BEFORE they get the idea to commit mass murder. I’m PRETTY positive the solution isn’t to bully them more.
“Incel losers” commits a horrific crime because they were treated like they have no worth and deserve to die
What makes you think that was why a particular crime was committed? There are lots and lots of people who get bullied and are treated like shit and they don’t act out in some horrible, violent way.
I think it’s these communities that they’re in that encourage that kind of behavior. We need better support structures for our society so that people who need community can find something healthy.
A part that complicates things is that incels, contrary to what the name implies, choose to be incels. Also, working with incels specifically could end up giving a perverse incentive (or whatever it’s called when an effort to reduce something instead becomes an incentive to increase it) to be an incel to get help.
Well, you choose whether or not to identify as an incel. Which is what you mean, I assume.
Yeah, inceldom is a mindset, choosing to be bitter about their state of affairs and lash out at others for not wanting them. I don’t frequent their areas, but some of them blame various ratios of their facial positioning when their face is fine, it’s just their attitude that is shitty.
I guess it could be argued how much one can change their personality to be less off-putting, but I’ve known some real ugly dudes that have had fine dating lives.
Sure, but what you’re describing here is more than just an attitude. It’s a cult.
thats a volcel, no?
I realize you’re probably just making a joke but the reality is that there are few people so ugly that no one would have sex with them. Even if you keep your standards high, I’m sure there’s many cases of someone whose own mother would cry at the sight of that managed attract a model who is just into that.
But the attitude is very off-putting, more so than whatever physical characteristics they think disqualifies them from love or sex (and a good number of them aren’t even unattractive but just have no self-esteem and hate themselves so much they either can’t believe someone else would like them or that someone who does must have big problems of their own or is lying to use them).
Even the niceguy attitude is offputting, and the incel attitude is pretty much that but replace the sadness with anger and the depression with rage, and add a bunch of BS masquerading as the science of attraction that proves they aren’t attractive and ignores that it’s subjective and that there’s this weird “so ugly it’s cute” category that some/many people seem to have (though it usually applies to animals rather than people).
This is the Just World Fallacy. Saying “You can’t get laid because you have a bad attitude” isn’t any different from saying “The reason why you’re homeless is because of your bad attitude.”
Okay. Does that help at all? Abso-fucking-lutely not.
I disagree that it’s unhelpful. I’ll agree that it’s not an easy thing like “just smile more, you’ll get laid!” But step 1 for any incel to actually get laid would be to stop being a fucking incel and recognize that no one owes them sex, affection, or even a moment of their time to hear them out or explain why they won’t.
If you choose to wallow in something, whether it be inceldom or depression, you’re going to find it very difficult or impossible to come out of that.
Incels sound like a toxic cult, and I’m not sure how much you can blame people for getting indoctrinated into a cult.
Depression is a disease which is treated with medication and therapy, so I don’t see that as similar at all.
What I find interesting is that most people try to counter this with “Just do this, and then maybe you’ll get laid”, instead of pointing out how self-centered the entire concept is in the first place.
But step 1 for any incel to actually get laid would be to stop being a fucking incel and recognize that no one owes them sex, affection, or even a moment of their time to hear them out or explain why they won’t.
No, that is not step 1 for actually getting laid, because there is no step 1 for that. Some people are doomed to be alone and miserable, and for some of them, that’s never going to change. That’s just how it is. I wish we’d built a better society which actually takes care of people, but that isn’t the one we live in. I just do my best to try to make things better.
What we really need is legalized sex work, but there’d have to be protections for the workers so they wouldn’t have to worry about being abused by their clientele. Legalized sex work with strong sex workers’ unions would be ideal.
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I thought we agreed to treat every life as worthless, unless they have a couple of million dollars on them, regardless of gender or race?
Bullshit, Incels, like everyone else, have access to information, they are choosing to gravitate towards these manosphere wackos because it’s the easy way out, a convenient scapegoat instead of actually trying to address THEIR issues. They have zero critical thinking skills and again I put that on them. I have access to all the same propaganda, the women only wanting men 6ft plus, meanwhile I have two ex wives both who were taller than my 167cm giant height.
While what you said is true (at least from the second word on), your argument boils down to “the truth is out there so propaganda only works on people who want it to work on them”. And while I wouldn’t say that is necessarily false either, it does drastically oversimplify things.
And even if anyone who does fall for it deliberately so, it’s still good to know that there is a propaganda effort going on and that inceldom and the manosphere aren’t just happening because that’s how men are. They likely started naturally (because there absolutely are men like that, and women and others) but it’s all being amplified to pull in as many as possible.
That is absolutely NOT how men are, at my age, i feel like I can speak on behalf of ALL real men in that statement. But as usual, a small and very vocal minority makes us all look bad.
It seems to me that the existence of incels is evidence of some sort of mental health crisis among this demographic. Blaming someone for not having the adequate emotional maturity doesn’t seem like the right move if the goal is to make these people better. They need therapy. I guess in my mind they occupy the same space as drug addicts/alcoholics except they probably do more harm to those around them. They need to take responsibility, but they need a support system that will actually help too.
I agree with much of what you said, I posted that while angry and so it came across unsympathetic. Mental health (I’m a recovering alcoholic, 7+ years sober after 27 years of hell before I took responsibility) is key to a majority of these kids. We also have to acknowledge the fact that many of these kids haven’t developed any social skills, in my day, you had to talk to people, you made friends, you learnt social norms by trial and error, there was no screen to hide behind under an alias. No one told them the internet isn’t social interaction. Unfortunately, society doesn’t seem equipped to deal with this phenomena. I appreciate you calling me out on that.
5’8" (1.73m) here. Married for 13 years.
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I hope you find someone for you soon.
Look at the username. You are falling for bait.
Well I agree with him on Futurama at least.
I assure you sir, I am not trolling. All of my misanthropy is 100% genuine and of my own design. But in the words of Jayson Street, “I come with warning labels.”
Middle Age Pilot Yells At Clouds, Says GET OUT OF THE FUCKING WAY!
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Stop lying. No you don’t. You look like a Baptist saying he loves Jesus. Just who are you trying to fool? Whose brownie points do you think you’re earning?
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I don’t. I haven’t tried looking for a date since the pandemic and I don’t plan to start again. Women don’t want me, they want the quarter million dollars of real estate I own and the 2 million dollars of real estate I’m heir to. Well guess what? Unlike the majority of married men, I’m not losing my home in a divorce. I’m gonna die right there on my grandfather’s land on my grandfather’s couch and my three month rotted corpse will be found by police on a wellness check initiated by the town water company. I’m not gonna be taken to the hospital, forced to keep my heart beating after the stroke and live to be an 86 year old shambling corpse of a social security check for others to cash.
Hmmm, yes, no doubt it’s the women’s height requirements that are to blame, since you have such a sterling personality.
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if men have requirements of woman, its only fair for women to have standards and requirements of thier own. its not a one way relationship, that only breeds toxicity, and women not dating you.
Really? For decades I was told it’s unfair for men to have requirements of women?
Men hate women, and women hate men. Men like vaginas and women like shoes. So let’s fight. That’s where I see society at right now. Am I wrong in any way?
Women always had height requirements, you just started seeing them written down.
Online dating certainly brought some new problems, but most women hate it too so if it doesn’t work for you the old staples of finding a partner through friends, a hobby or at work are still there, as well as specific dating activities.
Or just don’t put your height in your bio and be funny. Those “non negotiable height requirements” turn out to be very negotiable in a lot of cases.
How’d those lies taste coming out of your mouth?
Sorry, didn’t realise you were a lost cause. Hope you escape.
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A touch shorter and celebrated 24 years married last month.
I’ve seen 5’2" guys who are regularly seeing incredibly attractive women.
I also know a guy whose face is not what one would call conventionally attractive but his personality means he’s often had his pick of men and women because he just feels good to spend time with.
even 5ft men can get with girls. girls can detect thirsty desperate , creepy men(nice guys) very easily. i had unfortunate experience of hearing and watching my olders bro pickup videos he always binged on. they all sound desperate and creepy.
You mean 4’20"
Aka the goated height
Conversely, I’m 6’2" and chronically single
5’3" (1.6m) and closing in on 25 years. It’s amazing how far a bit of kindness, compassion, and a sense of humor can go.
Kinda reminds me of boot camp, using psychological attacks to break down men’s will and have him disregulated and complient
it makes sense they want robots, who wont question where and what to shoot.
Eh, I agree and disagree with the image text. There are similarities, yes, but I wouldn’t view it quite as closely connected as the post implies. Main reason being that there’s a difference between using verbal abuse to control someone’s actions – like what it implies an abusive boyfriend would do to control his gf – and using generally third party reference points to construct an admittedly grim world view for a broad demographic group. The manosphere approach is closer, I’d say, to the marketing done by the women’s beauty industry in this regard.
Ie. there are certain trends / norms that women tend to cycle through, and certain beauty standards that people generally seem to expect from women (without digging in to that!). The beauty industry leverages that and puts out products re-enforcing those norms / helping ppl align to those norms. There are lots of people that find alternative body types attractive, and/or that have more realistic expectations. But if you’re a woman who’s obsessed with beauty trends, it can become an unhealthy obsession leading to potential issues like anorexia.
In that it’s toxic when taken to an extreme, and in that its fundamentals are based in “reality”, the beauty industry’s similar to manosphere rhetoric. The manosphere’s “short guys get no girls” mentality is backed by many short guys experiences with dating (especially online, where they’re pre-filtered!); similarly, a fat girl with lopsided facial features will have difficulty, making the beauty industries products/message more enticing/convincing. They both leverage the generally negative real world experiences of their target audiences to ‘ground’ their message. Both movements also have equatable super stars – “Supermodels”/OnlyFans girls/Twitch Streamers/Whatever who are deemed the most beautiful women, and “Tech bros” who are fathering armies of children and touting right wing eugenics-like ideals.
Mostly pointing this alternative comparison out, because I think there’s a bit of grey on the manosphere stuff. An obsession with beauty standards/industry stuff is unhealthy, but in moderation its ok/beneficial; an obsession with “men’s rights”/“men’s issues” is unhealthy, but in moderation it’s likely a good thing. More guys being more conscious about their health, and getting more exercise, isn’t a bad thing after all – and that’s one of the themes in that manosphere clusterfuck.
This is quite an insightful comment actually, thanks.
