Both sides of the conflict are indictable, but atrocities cannot be excused on the same basis as war.
Please clarify “13,000 Ukranian civilians murdered by their own government”. Casualties in conflict are not murder, much less murder committed by the “by their own government”, even if the conflict could have been avoided.
The Banderites, after taking power and restricting things like the Russian language, responded to Donetsk and Luhansk seceding by shelling them, killing 13,000+ civilians between 2014 and 2022. Have a Reuters link and a link to OSCE itself. Toss in Human Rights Watch for good measure. Plenty of good sources. The point is that this same Banderite regime had amassed a ton of forces in the Donbass region and dramatically increased shelling in 2022, which prompted the DPR and LPR to request aid from Russia, to which they accepted.
The osce and hrw links say nothing casualties. The hrw strongly suggests that the shelling of a working kindergarten was done by russian backed separatists.
The Reuters article does back your number, buslt doesn’t suggest a campaign of ethnic cleansing by either side
Is acknowledging that Russia has committed atrocities incompatible with acknowledging that Russian-speaking groups may have legitimate grievances about rule by Ukraine?
Both Russia and Ukraine have committed war crimes, sure. Russia isn’t socialist any longer and isn’t exactly a moral paragon. However, letting the Banderites walk into Donetsk and Luhansk and slaughter them would have been a humanitarian disaster, and the fact that the seperatists in Donetsk and Luhansk seperated due to the fascist coup is hugely important in this discussion.
Russian-speaking groups in Ukraine certainly may have legitimate grievances. Whether they were worth a prolonged conflict is questionable. Most of the bloodshed could have been avoided by such groups accepting the terms of rule by Ukraine, despite their grievances. They would not be fully satisfied, but also not be bombarded by shelling. The conflict is a civil war, not ethnic cleansing.
Regardless, Russia is not liberatory. Life under Russian rule for Russian-speaking groups in the contested regions would be oppressive just as life is oppressive generally for Russians, and even if life for such groups is oppressive under rule by Ukraine. The situation in the contested regions was invoked as an excuse to garner popular support for the invasion, and helping the population was not authentically a motive.
Framing Russia as humanitarian or liberatory is absurd, and defending its atrocities is disgusting.
The Banderites in Kiev had orchestrated the Maidan Massacre, were ethnically suppressing Russians, and then this escalated once Donetsk and Luhansk separated from the new fascist regime. I really can’t get behind someone suggesting that they just accept their repression and minimize it by saying “they aren’t fully satisfied” under literal fascists.
Russia indeed isn’t a great place to live, it’s fallen quite far from its proud soviet heritage. However, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t the targets of ethnic cleansing by the Russian Federation, and they would no longer be under a neo-Nazi regime, merely a repressive nationalist one. Further, the CPRF is rising in popularity in Russia, and this forces concessions from the ruling nationalist party due to needing to maintain unity during wartime.
For the people in the Donbass region, Russia is liberatory. That’s why they voted to join them. I’m not defending war crimes, but I am defending the fact that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk voted to join the Russian Federation and to secede from the western-backed neo-Nazi regime in Kiev.
At issue is whether to support the invasion, and whether the reasons for such support validate denying or underplaying atrocities committed by Russia.
The situation for some may have improved, or be hoped to improve, as a consequence of the invasion, but the overarching calamity across the region overshadows such particular gains. The overall humanitarian situation unequivocally has deteriorated due to the invasion.
We need to be careful with terms. “Ethnically suppressed” is vague. Russian-speaking Ukrainians were not selected for internment or elimination. Ethnic cleansing certainly seems an inappropriate allegation. What was the experience that made resistance worth the cost?
Also, fascism has a particular meaning. Ukraine has fascist militias. The regime is reactionary, installed through a coup, and a puppet of the US. All are alarming, but also common throughout the world, and their convergence still does not amount to the regime being fascist.
Imagine someone actually having the tantrum you are in the middle of in the real world
Imagine someone actually being introduced to the concept of ww2 in the way you’re describing and reacting the way you are.
Even in your infantile outburst an actually intelligent curious person would want to know more about it.
But if they were a nazi maybe they would just cling to the excuse to not engage with an entire era of history that would make them reconsider their priors
Or maybe your behavior can be explained fully by just childish obstinance.
Both sides of the conflict are indictable, but atrocities cannot be excused on the same basis as war.
Please clarify “13,000 Ukranian civilians murdered by their own government”. Casualties in conflict are not murder, much less murder committed by the “by their own government”, even if the conflict could have been avoided.
he’s talking about the campaign of ethnic cleansing your heroes were committing before the war started that led to the war
don’t know how the fuck you twist your brain into not calling it murder, but you are defending an openly nazi government after all
Who are my heroes?
Regardless, please clarify “the campaign of ethnic cleansing”.
The Banderites, after taking power and restricting things like the Russian language, responded to Donetsk and Luhansk seceding by shelling them, killing 13,000+ civilians between 2014 and 2022. Have a Reuters link and a link to OSCE itself. Toss in Human Rights Watch for good measure. Plenty of good sources. The point is that this same Banderite regime had amassed a ton of forces in the Donbass region and dramatically increased shelling in 2022, which prompted the DPR and LPR to request aid from Russia, to which they accepted.
The osce and hrw links say nothing casualties. The hrw strongly suggests that the shelling of a working kindergarten was done by russian backed separatists.
The Reuters article does back your number, buslt doesn’t suggest a campaign of ethnic cleansing by either side
Ukraine represses separatist movements, just like Russia and every other state.
How does it bear on Russia having committed atrocities?
Oh, there was a separatist movement? How come, why did all those people all decide to separate?
I bet it was those dirty lying russians tricking them into not wanting to be killed by Banderites
Is acknowledging that Russia has committed atrocities incompatible with acknowledging that Russian-speaking groups may have legitimate grievances about rule by Ukraine?
Like what, what are the legitimate grievances?
Both Russia and Ukraine have committed war crimes, sure. Russia isn’t socialist any longer and isn’t exactly a moral paragon. However, letting the Banderites walk into Donetsk and Luhansk and slaughter them would have been a humanitarian disaster, and the fact that the seperatists in Donetsk and Luhansk seperated due to the fascist coup is hugely important in this discussion.
Russian-speaking groups in Ukraine certainly may have legitimate grievances. Whether they were worth a prolonged conflict is questionable. Most of the bloodshed could have been avoided by such groups accepting the terms of rule by Ukraine, despite their grievances. They would not be fully satisfied, but also not be bombarded by shelling. The conflict is a civil war, not ethnic cleansing.
Regardless, Russia is not liberatory. Life under Russian rule for Russian-speaking groups in the contested regions would be oppressive just as life is oppressive generally for Russians, and even if life for such groups is oppressive under rule by Ukraine. The situation in the contested regions was invoked as an excuse to garner popular support for the invasion, and helping the population was not authentically a motive.
Framing Russia as humanitarian or liberatory is absurd, and defending its atrocities is disgusting.
The Banderites in Kiev had orchestrated the Maidan Massacre, were ethnically suppressing Russians, and then this escalated once Donetsk and Luhansk separated from the new fascist regime. I really can’t get behind someone suggesting that they just accept their repression and minimize it by saying “they aren’t fully satisfied” under literal fascists.
Russia indeed isn’t a great place to live, it’s fallen quite far from its proud soviet heritage. However, the people of Donetsk and Luhansk aren’t the targets of ethnic cleansing by the Russian Federation, and they would no longer be under a neo-Nazi regime, merely a repressive nationalist one. Further, the CPRF is rising in popularity in Russia, and this forces concessions from the ruling nationalist party due to needing to maintain unity during wartime.
For the people in the Donbass region, Russia is liberatory. That’s why they voted to join them. I’m not defending war crimes, but I am defending the fact that the people of Donetsk and Luhansk voted to join the Russian Federation and to secede from the western-backed neo-Nazi regime in Kiev.
At issue is whether to support the invasion, and whether the reasons for such support validate denying or underplaying atrocities committed by Russia.
The situation for some may have improved, or be hoped to improve, as a consequence of the invasion, but the overarching calamity across the region overshadows such particular gains. The overall humanitarian situation unequivocally has deteriorated due to the invasion.
We need to be careful with terms. “Ethnically suppressed” is vague. Russian-speaking Ukrainians were not selected for internment or elimination. Ethnic cleansing certainly seems an inappropriate allegation. What was the experience that made resistance worth the cost?
Also, fascism has a particular meaning. Ukraine has fascist militias. The regime is reactionary, installed through a coup, and a puppet of the US. All are alarming, but also common throughout the world, and their convergence still does not amount to the regime being fascist.
What word do you need sounded out? What are you confused about? What needs clarification?
You were told the thing. Maybe punch it into duck duck go instead of folding your arms and digging your heels in.
Like the burden of you learning what you’re taking a strong fucking stand on should fall on the people you’re being oppositional towards.
The ones you slava
Identifying a few factions, dates, and names of the events would be a solid way to respond to a request for clarification.
Do you describe the Second World War as “bad thing where people died”, or could you think of more details that elucidate the events?
Imagine someone actually having the tantrum you are in the middle of in the real world
Imagine someone actually being introduced to the concept of ww2 in the way you’re describing and reacting the way you are.
Even in your infantile outburst an actually intelligent curious person would want to know more about it.
But if they were a nazi maybe they would just cling to the excuse to not engage with an entire era of history that would make them reconsider their priors
Or maybe your behavior can be explained fully by just childish obstinance.
Either way you suck.
How the fuck can you sit there and support the people who firebombed Dresden? You’re a fascist!
You can’t read.