Lore cannot be dumped upon the audience because it isn’t what people engage with stories for.
I am not suggesting lore dumping, I’m suggesting keeping the the backdrop consistent with what was established so far. The show is clearly fine with the audience having questions, but none of the questions seem to point to having answers that tie into the history of the region. The history that the showrunners have written, perhaps.
Fallout is interesting for a visual medium because of how much exploration there is. No need to exposit or loredump, the characters can slowly find out the regional story as they go along. Which they do, but again - I think the end of the NCR is a bit less of a foreshadowed ending to a failing state and more “they were a big settlement and got nuked outta nowhere.” Which, as you said, is kinda due to the nature of it being a show. But if you have to write off a major player in the region out mostly offscreen just to make the region fit, why not just pick a new region?
Having a deeper reference to One For My Baby than Cooper misremembering Carla’s name and how long ago she was there wouldn’t have been worth it for people who didn’t play New Vegas.
I’m not suggesting a deeper reference or fanservice, I’m suggesting moving the shot outside the motel, which would remove the inconsistencies with location. And also, by having it outside the motel, the shot itself would reference the quest more. But that was not the goal of my suggestion.
Not seeing as many signs of it being rebuilt in the show makes sense if most people lived in smaller population centers for safety and many of them fell along with Shady Sands.
This is what I’m talking about. I would have liked to see evidence of these smaller population centers. In S1, we see barren desert, a few weirdos, a junktown, and nuked Shady Sands. Where are the farms, the outposts, the trading routes, or the tertiary settlements that would have naturally come from proximity to civilization? Only Shady Sands got nuked, where’s all the other evidence for civilization? That’s what I mean about no evidence of NCR. It’s not that I wanted to see the faction I know, I just think there should be more evidence they existed in that region.
All that said, you’ve made quite a few points to the credit of the showrunners. They definitely don’t have an easy job. You’re absolutely right about the NCR territory being so massive that they could really show anything. But I still walk away thinking they maybe should have tread on new ground with this one.
Like, if they have to change so much to make it fit with their vision of the show, why not scale the show down and set it in an untouched region? The BoS factions in season 2 are already making me curious about the other parts of America, and they could show those areas with no fear of having to immediately adapt game lore.
I think it could have gained a lot from being centered just around The Ghoul and Lucy, honestly. When I sit and think about it, what turns me off of the show is that I feel it covers so much ground in a very surface-level way that raises more questions that it answers. Which is a problem that wouldn’t be as prevalent if they had introduced the world concepts a little more slowly. And again, if they’re fine with raising questions, why not do so in a way that showcases what happened in the region rather than easing the audience in with familiar albeit less related concepts?
On your note about how they can only do so much in 8 episodes, maybe they should have tried to work with less? Vaults, the wasteland, and ghouls for a bit, then maybe we run into the BoS. Pre-War flashbacks could have been introduced in Season 2 to flesh out Cooper more, since normally the Pre-War isn’t heavily tied to the current wasteland in Fallout.
Idk, just my opinion. I’m not going to be hateful about it. But I do think that reactions such as mine could be avoided by not setting the show in previously trodden ground and using the plot to slowly build the idea of the region before the protagonists go there. And I think that’s the crux of what I’m saying. You can do Fallout anywhere in America. Setting it in NCR territory shortly after New Vegas carries certain expectations with it, and I think the story they want to tell could flourish on its own and eventually play into the grander world were it set in an area with less obligation to convey history.
This is what I’m talking about. I would have liked to see evidence of these smaller population centers. In S1, we see barren desert, a few weirdos, a junktown, and nuked Shady Sands. Where are the farms, the outposts, the trading routes, or the tertiary settlements that would have naturally come from proximity to civilization? Only Shady Sands got nuked, where’s all the other evidence for civilization? That’s what I mean about no evidence of NCR. It’s not that I wanted to see the faction I know, I just think there should be more evidence they existed in that region.
Given the entire first season takes place around Los Angeles, probably not there. California supports such a large population in real life thanks to water from the Colorado River, the use of which has turned lush valleys into toxic dustbowls and destroyed rich wetlands. Combined with being badly nuked, the whole region probably wasn’t the most habitable thanks to it now having irradiated toxic dust storms.
This is even shown in the show with the Shady Sands residents efficiently tapping into the same water resources as vault 33, the act of which was what inspired Lucy’s mom to leave in the first place. The area also wasn’t shown in Fallout 2, was overrun with super mutants in 1, and was likely underdeveloped compared the settlements in the San Joaquin Valley. My guess is there is more civilization near San Francisco and Sacramento, as that area is an irl breadbasket with its own independent water supply. This is notable because the showrunners were specifically told to avoid San Francisco by Bethesda. Having Shady Sands near Fresno like in the games would make it harder for them to adhere to that mandate.
As far as them possibly choosing another area as the setting, my guess is they simply wanted to tell the story of the fall of irl America, and therefore the fall of the NCR. Rather than building whole new factions that would always be compared unfavourably to those on the west coast, or be stuck dealing with recent lore on the east coast, why not follow the decline of the NCR shown in New Vegas to its logical conclusion? Like I said before, I think this direction is fitting and that the show would have a harder time if it tried to do something else. It would have a harder time keeping the identity of Fallout without the commentary on America.
I love your take on the region! You clearly know your stuff!
I will say, I don’t think Fallout has to focus on anything Pre-War to keep its identity. A lot of the Pre-War elements in the older games are important because of what they mean to the wasteland now, not the world of the past. But there’s plenty of interesting stuff to be explored in the Pre-War world, I just hope we see some more of the actual war and less Vault-Tec politics.
As for the NCR, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree - for now. I’ve no intention to debate you on your knowledge of geography. I think your reasoning for the geographical depiction is well-thought out.
But that said, I feel like you’re misinterpreting my problem with the show, which is that I feel it’s not following the NCR to its natural conclusion. The NCR has concluded by the time we see it in the show - Hank nukes them in a flashback. What we see in Season 2 are a few remnants. The best we get showing the NCR’s decline is the loredump scene in the schoolhouse.
The show is popular and will no doubt keep going, so there’s time to touch on the NCR more, but my point is that it’s not really showing the decline of the NCR, it’s showing the decline of Pre-War America and having characters pay lip-service to the NCR. If the NCR is still out there, and they can tie their story to the Pre-War plot, I will happily eat crow. But as it stands, the NCR in the show is just a small prop in the inner shenanigans of Vault-Tec. Destroyed by Vault-Tec, with its remnants led by a Pre-War scientist.
I just think there are ways to write an allegory for the Pre-War situation without carrying actors directly from the Pre-War… that was a problem I had with Fallout 4 as well. Sure, Ghouls exist… but as we see with Cooper Howard, they’re changed by the wasteland. A lot of the Pre-War characters in the show feel like not much changed in 200 years.
They also do a lot of talking on Communism and whatnot in the Pre-War scenes. I feel like if they acknowledged the fact that it’s a resource war a little more, it’d be a lot easier to allegorize using the lack of resources in the wasteland. But I do think that’s not a misinterpretation on their part, and more of an interesting take on how Pre-War America would have spun the war for the public.
Anyway, I like your optimistic take on how they could develop the region! You raised a lot of good points that have definitely helped me see your perspective. It’s super refreshing to talk to you!
Thanks. I just grew up in SoCal and am generally curious about the environment and history.
I also understand a lot about how television is written and the pressures the industry puts on storytelling. This is why I can confidently say that Fallout does the best job it can realistically do with the lore. Featuring factions, locations, and lore this accurate to the games is an absolute achievement that required the creators to know and care about the source material.
Well, I’ll certainly keep in mind to be more gracious to the showrunners.
Most of my complaints do, indeed, not consider the corporate aspect that’s most likely telling the showrunners what they can and cannot depict. And that’s a little unfair. Still, I do wish some things were done differently that I’m not sure will be wrapped up by the end.
The dream Fallout show, to me, would be a Mad Max-style show with a lot of original aspects that starts tying into the wasteland at large as it goes on.
But, I guess Fallout was never gonna be some arthouse project with unlimited freedom; you’re right that they have to cater to the expectations of multiple audiences. Maybe I shouldn’t have gone in with preconcieved notions. But I feel like I got those notions from the classic series, and it has morphed drastically since. But enough about how I don’t really enjoy the show, we all know that. It’s all my opinion, anyway.
Thanks for workin it out with an old pedant like me. You prove yourself to be a consistent element of grace on the Fediverse.
I am not suggesting lore dumping, I’m suggesting keeping the the backdrop consistent with what was established so far. The show is clearly fine with the audience having questions, but none of the questions seem to point to having answers that tie into the history of the region. The history that the showrunners have written, perhaps.
Fallout is interesting for a visual medium because of how much exploration there is. No need to exposit or loredump, the characters can slowly find out the regional story as they go along. Which they do, but again - I think the end of the NCR is a bit less of a foreshadowed ending to a failing state and more “they were a big settlement and got nuked outta nowhere.” Which, as you said, is kinda due to the nature of it being a show. But if you have to write off a major player in the region out mostly offscreen just to make the region fit, why not just pick a new region?
I’m not suggesting a deeper reference or fanservice, I’m suggesting moving the shot outside the motel, which would remove the inconsistencies with location. And also, by having it outside the motel, the shot itself would reference the quest more. But that was not the goal of my suggestion.
This is what I’m talking about. I would have liked to see evidence of these smaller population centers. In S1, we see barren desert, a few weirdos, a junktown, and nuked Shady Sands. Where are the farms, the outposts, the trading routes, or the tertiary settlements that would have naturally come from proximity to civilization? Only Shady Sands got nuked, where’s all the other evidence for civilization? That’s what I mean about no evidence of NCR. It’s not that I wanted to see the faction I know, I just think there should be more evidence they existed in that region.
All that said, you’ve made quite a few points to the credit of the showrunners. They definitely don’t have an easy job. You’re absolutely right about the NCR territory being so massive that they could really show anything. But I still walk away thinking they maybe should have tread on new ground with this one.
Like, if they have to change so much to make it fit with their vision of the show, why not scale the show down and set it in an untouched region? The BoS factions in season 2 are already making me curious about the other parts of America, and they could show those areas with no fear of having to immediately adapt game lore.
I think it could have gained a lot from being centered just around The Ghoul and Lucy, honestly. When I sit and think about it, what turns me off of the show is that I feel it covers so much ground in a very surface-level way that raises more questions that it answers. Which is a problem that wouldn’t be as prevalent if they had introduced the world concepts a little more slowly. And again, if they’re fine with raising questions, why not do so in a way that showcases what happened in the region rather than easing the audience in with familiar albeit less related concepts?
On your note about how they can only do so much in 8 episodes, maybe they should have tried to work with less? Vaults, the wasteland, and ghouls for a bit, then maybe we run into the BoS. Pre-War flashbacks could have been introduced in Season 2 to flesh out Cooper more, since normally the Pre-War isn’t heavily tied to the current wasteland in Fallout.
Idk, just my opinion. I’m not going to be hateful about it. But I do think that reactions such as mine could be avoided by not setting the show in previously trodden ground and using the plot to slowly build the idea of the region before the protagonists go there. And I think that’s the crux of what I’m saying. You can do Fallout anywhere in America. Setting it in NCR territory shortly after New Vegas carries certain expectations with it, and I think the story they want to tell could flourish on its own and eventually play into the grander world were it set in an area with less obligation to convey history.
Given the entire first season takes place around Los Angeles, probably not there. California supports such a large population in real life thanks to water from the Colorado River, the use of which has turned lush valleys into toxic dustbowls and destroyed rich wetlands. Combined with being badly nuked, the whole region probably wasn’t the most habitable thanks to it now having irradiated toxic dust storms.
This is even shown in the show with the Shady Sands residents efficiently tapping into the same water resources as vault 33, the act of which was what inspired Lucy’s mom to leave in the first place. The area also wasn’t shown in Fallout 2, was overrun with super mutants in 1, and was likely underdeveloped compared the settlements in the San Joaquin Valley. My guess is there is more civilization near San Francisco and Sacramento, as that area is an irl breadbasket with its own independent water supply. This is notable because the showrunners were specifically told to avoid San Francisco by Bethesda. Having Shady Sands near Fresno like in the games would make it harder for them to adhere to that mandate.
As far as them possibly choosing another area as the setting, my guess is they simply wanted to tell the story of the fall of irl America, and therefore the fall of the NCR. Rather than building whole new factions that would always be compared unfavourably to those on the west coast, or be stuck dealing with recent lore on the east coast, why not follow the decline of the NCR shown in New Vegas to its logical conclusion? Like I said before, I think this direction is fitting and that the show would have a harder time if it tried to do something else. It would have a harder time keeping the identity of Fallout without the commentary on America.
I love your take on the region! You clearly know your stuff!
I will say, I don’t think Fallout has to focus on anything Pre-War to keep its identity. A lot of the Pre-War elements in the older games are important because of what they mean to the wasteland now, not the world of the past. But there’s plenty of interesting stuff to be explored in the Pre-War world, I just hope we see some more of the actual war and less Vault-Tec politics.
As for the NCR, I think we’re just going to have to agree to disagree - for now. I’ve no intention to debate you on your knowledge of geography. I think your reasoning for the geographical depiction is well-thought out.
But that said, I feel like you’re misinterpreting my problem with the show, which is that I feel it’s not following the NCR to its natural conclusion. The NCR has concluded by the time we see it in the show - Hank nukes them in a flashback. What we see in Season 2 are a few remnants. The best we get showing the NCR’s decline is the loredump scene in the schoolhouse.
The show is popular and will no doubt keep going, so there’s time to touch on the NCR more, but my point is that it’s not really showing the decline of the NCR, it’s showing the decline of Pre-War America and having characters pay lip-service to the NCR. If the NCR is still out there, and they can tie their story to the Pre-War plot, I will happily eat crow. But as it stands, the NCR in the show is just a small prop in the inner shenanigans of Vault-Tec. Destroyed by Vault-Tec, with its remnants led by a Pre-War scientist.
I just think there are ways to write an allegory for the Pre-War situation without carrying actors directly from the Pre-War… that was a problem I had with Fallout 4 as well. Sure, Ghouls exist… but as we see with Cooper Howard, they’re changed by the wasteland. A lot of the Pre-War characters in the show feel like not much changed in 200 years.
They also do a lot of talking on Communism and whatnot in the Pre-War scenes. I feel like if they acknowledged the fact that it’s a resource war a little more, it’d be a lot easier to allegorize using the lack of resources in the wasteland. But I do think that’s not a misinterpretation on their part, and more of an interesting take on how Pre-War America would have spun the war for the public.
Anyway, I like your optimistic take on how they could develop the region! You raised a lot of good points that have definitely helped me see your perspective. It’s super refreshing to talk to you!
Thanks. I just grew up in SoCal and am generally curious about the environment and history.
I also understand a lot about how television is written and the pressures the industry puts on storytelling. This is why I can confidently say that Fallout does the best job it can realistically do with the lore. Featuring factions, locations, and lore this accurate to the games is an absolute achievement that required the creators to know and care about the source material.
Well, I’ll certainly keep in mind to be more gracious to the showrunners.
Most of my complaints do, indeed, not consider the corporate aspect that’s most likely telling the showrunners what they can and cannot depict. And that’s a little unfair. Still, I do wish some things were done differently that I’m not sure will be wrapped up by the end.
The dream Fallout show, to me, would be a Mad Max-style show with a lot of original aspects that starts tying into the wasteland at large as it goes on.
But, I guess Fallout was never gonna be some arthouse project with unlimited freedom; you’re right that they have to cater to the expectations of multiple audiences. Maybe I shouldn’t have gone in with preconcieved notions. But I feel like I got those notions from the classic series, and it has morphed drastically since. But enough about how I don’t really enjoy the show, we all know that. It’s all my opinion, anyway.
Thanks for workin it out with an old pedant like me. You prove yourself to be a consistent element of grace on the Fediverse.