The creator of the Cyberpunk 2077 VR mod CD Projekt recently hit with a DMCA strike has paused his Patreon page and pulled access to all his mods after receiving another strike from a different publisher.
Looks like the Ghostrunner developers also have an issue with paid mods running off their IP.
Sim racing is full of paid mods, and it’s working out fine. We acknowledge when someone puts effort into development, probably because majority of sim racers aren’t teens and have worked jobs.
In sim games you usually get the game and then get a vehicle you want to specialize in. You may put hundreds or thousands of hours into that vehicle and you know the ins and outs.
Mod development wise you may have to model the vehicle from the ground up. The vehicle has to have functioning gauges, be tuned to handle and behave like the vehicle in real life, fail like the real thing and basically BE the real thing. Take DCS for example. The game itself is actually free but the modules are paid. The detailed modules can go for around $70 or so dollars like the F16. You can use the real life flight manual for the F16 to learn how to use it in game. Train sims are similar. If you are real particular about a specific train you can find the module for it and expect probably pretty damn good detail down to nameplates and specifications
You arent going to get that sort of involvement in a game like Skyrim, Fallout, or Cyberpunk. You could maybe go down to that level of detail but that level of detail may not be able to be appreciated in a game that doesent simulate things like aerodynamics or how tire grip changes depending on temperature.
Mods are and should be a passion project. The moment you implement mods as income stream people and companies are going to exploit the shit out of it. See: Roblox, Skyrim, etc
In games you usually get the game and then get a mod that you want to play. You may put hundreds or thousands of hours into that mod.
Mod development wise you may have to create models from the ground up. A mod has to have functioning logic, be fit to the game but modify it in a significant way, feel like a change to the game.
You are seriously trying to say that a VR mod doesn’t take effort to build?
You can use the real life flight manual for the F16 to learn how to use it in game. If you are real particular about a specific train you can find the module for it and expect probably pretty damn good detail down to nameplates and specifications
Irrelevant. The only relevant thing regarding the quality-price consideration is whether a player is ready to pay for a particular mod.
The moment you implement mods as income stream people and companies are going to exploit the shit out of it. See: Roblox, Skyrim, etc
Arbitrary nothingburger claims. You just described how paid mods work in sims, so why don’t people ‘exploit the shit’ out of mods in sims?
@Nindelofocho@lemmy.world You seem to essentially be saying the sim mods take a lot of work so it is okay. But that can easily be the case and I would argue has been the case with this VR mod for Cyberpunk 2077 for example.
I think what’s really going on here is that the sim devs recognized even paid mods are in their interests and didn’t go after them. It may have played a factor that they’re generally not been these giant devs raking in endless money.
Curiously, in sim racing the most stable and profitable companies are iRacing Studios, which has their main game accessible by subscription and additional cars and tracks behind a one-time payment (but the game is very hardcore, and for example Max Verstappen uses it between actual races); and Kunos, who are very lax about mods and whose 2014 game is still among the most played in the genre thanks to literally thousands of mods, from which they derive no other profit other than the sales of the game itself (which costs a few bucks for the past five years at least).
In comparison, rFactor 2 is more modern than Assetto Corsa in every way, and has official cars and tracks as pricey DLCs — its dev Studio 397 was bought by Motosports Games, obviously not because of doing too great. MG promised a lot, got licenses to several real racing disciplines, delivered nothing except a buggy game on the side, lost the licenses, and its future is in question.
If a mod marketplace works for some games, that’s cool, but I think CDPR has the right to not approve of that model when it comes to their IP.
An open source model benefits everyone and can also be viable for mod developers :)
If someone puts their own free time and effort to make a mod, they should be allowed to sell it. If you want to spend your free time copying that mod, please do.
You’re not entitled to free labor, because you feel like it. It’s a game mod, it’s not a life necessity, playing games with out mods works as well. You are telling me that people that pay several hundred dollars for a VR headset can’t afford to give someone 10-20$ for their work.
No one’s saying they’re entitled to free labour. But you can’t make money off somebody else’s work, that’s not fair to them, not if they haven’t already given agreement.
How is it not fair? Cyberpunk is the platform for their mod just like Windows or PlayStation is the platform for Cyberpunk. Everything we do is built on someone else’s work.
PlayStation is not a platform that you build on top of it’s the operating system runs the game it’s a totally different concept.
You don’t modify the operating system to make the game you make the game in such a way that the operating system can understand but you create your own code. Modine is literally modifying somebody else’s code.
there’s really no difference, a mod doesn’t necessarily mean modifying the game’s code or assets either, it can be just adding or replacing things with your own code and assets. The game functioning relies just as much on the operating system and the libraries it provides as such a mod does on the game.
Making money of someone else’s work is the whole economy, that’s not an argument. I can understand if it’s taking money from the original developers but is definitely not the case.
In what way is it not fair? The game developer has full control over the game and the API it allows modders to use to make mods.
Is it that you are taking the money from the developers? Because you still need to buy the game, if anything the modding community makes the game more attractive to buy.
So what is the unfairness in the case of a modder wants to sell his mods?
If you want to make money for your effort, Dev a game. The idea that you should be able to piggyback off the work of another dev team and profit from it is BS. It’s like saying you should be allowed to walk into Starbucks and start selling custom mugs to their active customers; no way they would allow that
Why? If I’m a mechanic and upgrade a car that someone else made you wouldn’t care at all. I’ve always thought it was crazy that people act so entitled to software being free.
Hell cyberpunk itself wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for decades of work by Windows and console devs. Everything is built on top of someone else’s work so I don’t buy that as a reason for modders to go uncompensated.
You people live in a fantasy world, how the does one who can’t make a game make a game. That’s a lot of work, what is the issue with piggybacking from another ones work if it benefits both parties.
Give me a scenario where it hurts the original developers, a real scenario.
I don’t really care about the developers tbh, what I care about is the community, and paid mods hurt the community. Well-received mods have always been thanked by donations, and there’s nothing stopping that system from continuing today, but the idea of monetizing the community sandbox is toxic and should be wholly rejected.
In what way was it good for the community when they removed the mods that you had to pay for? It’s not like the developers of the mods will do it for free, and no is stopping you from making a free version of said mods.
You’re also not entitled to modify (which is what mod is short for) someone else’s work and sell it. If they allow you to then great, go for it if you want. However, you don’t get to complain when they say no. They can still ask for donations, which is what most modders do.
You should be, what’s the difference between selling modification to other things that people do all the time. Cars, instruments, music, phones, software and 5 million other things.
They are not selling their work, they are selling their own work, they are not selling the game with the mod, their are selling a mod to the game.
It’s just that gaming companies are dickheads and want to have exclusive rights to having a market around their products.
Of course you get to complain, why shouldn’t you complain if you don’t like something and think it’s unfair. Wether it’s legitimate or not you should complain, then if someone listens or not thats another question.
You don’t have to buy mods, dude there are plenty of mods that are free, but if someone wants to sell it why not. The only thing that will happen is that you will have more quality mods, paid or free. Then there’s the question if you have exclusive rights to a mod, I would say no, anyone should be able to copy your mod.
The difference is the game developers have put in extra work in order to make their games easily moddable. Your car didn’t. Developers don’t have to add mod support, but then it usually becomes incredibly difficult to modify.
They put extra effort in to allow people to create stuff using their game. It’s like using any other software as a tool; you need to follow their rules for using it. This could mean paying a licensing fee, or it could mean making it open source, or whatever else they may decide. You’re using their tools, so their rules have to be followed.
That doesn’t really apply in the case of this particular type of mod though. They don’t go out of their way to support these VR mods in any special way.
What are you talking about, have you ever heard of after market products. There’s a reason why certain industries design there products to allow third party vendors to sell after market components, it makes them more popular by consumers.
Dude you are just making shit up as you go, what you are saying makes no sense.
I extend functionality of existing software products for B2B as a living, no one would buy their products if they didn’t allow them to be extended.
Let’s take your assumption to the end result; the developer has no control over mod distribution. Let’s make up a hypothetical (which has happened before) where someone is distributing malware with their mod. Does the developer have no authority to take it down?
Mods, whether you like it or not, do reflect back on the developer. If there’s a scandal of bad behavior, it’ll effect their sales. Also, if payed mods become the standard it’ll effect their sales, as people will be less likely to deal with modding. I have no issue with mod developers making money from their product, but they must also recognize that it’s with the support of the developers of the game. If they decide to remove your mod they can, in many ways.
The argument for these VR mods not running afoul of copyright law as it currently exists is that they’re more like an emulator that supports a significant number of games and don’t really modify the game itself at all. Obviously game companies tend to hate emulators too and have even tried to go after them so you probably can’t trust their judgement on this.
You could even draw parallels here to something like Google’s recently announced autospatialization feature of Android XR that will make it possible to play any game (in theory, in practice some games will probably work better than others) with 3D visuals. Google certainly isn’t offering that for free since it only works on an Android device that they get paid for because it is using their software.
Learn your lesson : Don’t sell mods.
Yeah, there’s enough enshitification already in the world with all sorts of monetization trying to turn everything into subscriptions.
If someone wants subscription revenue that much they should release their own game rather than turn mods into yet another subscription hell hole.
Sim racing is full of paid mods, and it’s working out fine. We acknowledge when someone puts effort into development, probably because majority of sim racers aren’t teens and have worked jobs.
Sim games are sorta their own beast when it comes to mods.
Oh really? Why can’t other games be the same beast when it comes to mods? Does the VR mod take sales away from CDPR?
In sim games you usually get the game and then get a vehicle you want to specialize in. You may put hundreds or thousands of hours into that vehicle and you know the ins and outs.
Mod development wise you may have to model the vehicle from the ground up. The vehicle has to have functioning gauges, be tuned to handle and behave like the vehicle in real life, fail like the real thing and basically BE the real thing. Take DCS for example. The game itself is actually free but the modules are paid. The detailed modules can go for around $70 or so dollars like the F16. You can use the real life flight manual for the F16 to learn how to use it in game. Train sims are similar. If you are real particular about a specific train you can find the module for it and expect probably pretty damn good detail down to nameplates and specifications
You arent going to get that sort of involvement in a game like Skyrim, Fallout, or Cyberpunk. You could maybe go down to that level of detail but that level of detail may not be able to be appreciated in a game that doesent simulate things like aerodynamics or how tire grip changes depending on temperature.
Mods are and should be a passion project. The moment you implement mods as income stream people and companies are going to exploit the shit out of it. See: Roblox, Skyrim, etc
In games you usually get the game and then get a mod that you want to play. You may put hundreds or thousands of hours into that mod.
Mod development wise you may have to create models from the ground up. A mod has to have functioning logic, be fit to the game but modify it in a significant way, feel like a change to the game.
You are seriously trying to say that a VR mod doesn’t take effort to build?
Irrelevant. The only relevant thing regarding the quality-price consideration is whether a player is ready to pay for a particular mod.
Arbitrary nothingburger claims. You just described how paid mods work in sims, so why don’t people ‘exploit the shit’ out of mods in sims?
@Nindelofocho@lemmy.world You seem to essentially be saying the sim mods take a lot of work so it is okay. But that can easily be the case and I would argue has been the case with this VR mod for Cyberpunk 2077 for example.
I think what’s really going on here is that the sim devs recognized even paid mods are in their interests and didn’t go after them. It may have played a factor that they’re generally not been these giant devs raking in endless money.
Curiously, in sim racing the most stable and profitable companies are iRacing Studios, which has their main game accessible by subscription and additional cars and tracks behind a one-time payment (but the game is very hardcore, and for example Max Verstappen uses it between actual races); and Kunos, who are very lax about mods and whose 2014 game is still among the most played in the genre thanks to literally thousands of mods, from which they derive no other profit other than the sales of the game itself (which costs a few bucks for the past five years at least).
In comparison, rFactor 2 is more modern than Assetto Corsa in every way, and has official cars and tracks as pricey DLCs — its dev Studio 397 was bought by Motosports Games, obviously not because of doing too great. MG promised a lot, got licenses to several real racing disciplines, delivered nothing except a buggy game on the side, lost the licenses, and its future is in question.
If a mod marketplace works for some games, that’s cool, but I think CDPR has the right to not approve of that model when it comes to their IP. An open source model benefits everyone and can also be viable for mod developers :)
If someone puts their own free time and effort to make a mod, they should be allowed to sell it. If you want to spend your free time copying that mod, please do.
You’re not entitled to free labor, because you feel like it. It’s a game mod, it’s not a life necessity, playing games with out mods works as well. You are telling me that people that pay several hundred dollars for a VR headset can’t afford to give someone 10-20$ for their work.
No one’s saying they’re entitled to free labour. But you can’t make money off somebody else’s work, that’s not fair to them, not if they haven’t already given agreement.
How is it not fair? Cyberpunk is the platform for their mod just like Windows or PlayStation is the platform for Cyberpunk. Everything we do is built on someone else’s work.
PlayStation is not a platform that you build on top of it’s the operating system runs the game it’s a totally different concept.
You don’t modify the operating system to make the game you make the game in such a way that the operating system can understand but you create your own code. Modine is literally modifying somebody else’s code.
there’s really no difference, a mod doesn’t necessarily mean modifying the game’s code or assets either, it can be just adding or replacing things with your own code and assets. The game functioning relies just as much on the operating system and the libraries it provides as such a mod does on the game.
Making money of someone else’s work is the whole economy, that’s not an argument. I can understand if it’s taking money from the original developers but is definitely not the case.
In what way is it not fair? The game developer has full control over the game and the API it allows modders to use to make mods.
Is it that you are taking the money from the developers? Because you still need to buy the game, if anything the modding community makes the game more attractive to buy.
So what is the unfairness in the case of a modder wants to sell his mods?
If you want to make money for your effort, Dev a game. The idea that you should be able to piggyback off the work of another dev team and profit from it is BS. It’s like saying you should be allowed to walk into Starbucks and start selling custom mugs to their active customers; no way they would allow that
Why? If I’m a mechanic and upgrade a car that someone else made you wouldn’t care at all. I’ve always thought it was crazy that people act so entitled to software being free.
Hell cyberpunk itself wouldn’t exist if it weren’t for decades of work by Windows and console devs. Everything is built on top of someone else’s work so I don’t buy that as a reason for modders to go uncompensated.
You people live in a fantasy world, how the does one who can’t make a game make a game. That’s a lot of work, what is the issue with piggybacking from another ones work if it benefits both parties.
Give me a scenario where it hurts the original developers, a real scenario.
I don’t really care about the developers tbh, what I care about is the community, and paid mods hurt the community. Well-received mods have always been thanked by donations, and there’s nothing stopping that system from continuing today, but the idea of monetizing the community sandbox is toxic and should be wholly rejected.
In what way was it good for the community when they removed the mods that you had to pay for? It’s not like the developers of the mods will do it for free, and no is stopping you from making a free version of said mods.
If they won’t do it for the love of the game, then they aren’t part of the community.
You’re also not entitled to modify (which is what mod is short for) someone else’s work and sell it. If they allow you to then great, go for it if you want. However, you don’t get to complain when they say no. They can still ask for donations, which is what most modders do.
You should be, what’s the difference between selling modification to other things that people do all the time. Cars, instruments, music, phones, software and 5 million other things.
They are not selling their work, they are selling their own work, they are not selling the game with the mod, their are selling a mod to the game.
It’s just that gaming companies are dickheads and want to have exclusive rights to having a market around their products.
Of course you get to complain, why shouldn’t you complain if you don’t like something and think it’s unfair. Wether it’s legitimate or not you should complain, then if someone listens or not thats another question.
You don’t have to buy mods, dude there are plenty of mods that are free, but if someone wants to sell it why not. The only thing that will happen is that you will have more quality mods, paid or free. Then there’s the question if you have exclusive rights to a mod, I would say no, anyone should be able to copy your mod.
The difference is the game developers have put in extra work in order to make their games easily moddable. Your car didn’t. Developers don’t have to add mod support, but then it usually becomes incredibly difficult to modify.
They put extra effort in to allow people to create stuff using their game. It’s like using any other software as a tool; you need to follow their rules for using it. This could mean paying a licensing fee, or it could mean making it open source, or whatever else they may decide. You’re using their tools, so their rules have to be followed.
That doesn’t really apply in the case of this particular type of mod though. They don’t go out of their way to support these VR mods in any special way.
What are you talking about, have you ever heard of after market products. There’s a reason why certain industries design there products to allow third party vendors to sell after market components, it makes them more popular by consumers.
Dude you are just making shit up as you go, what you are saying makes no sense.
I extend functionality of existing software products for B2B as a living, no one would buy their products if they didn’t allow them to be extended.
Let’s take your assumption to the end result; the developer has no control over mod distribution. Let’s make up a hypothetical (which has happened before) where someone is distributing malware with their mod. Does the developer have no authority to take it down?
Mods, whether you like it or not, do reflect back on the developer. If there’s a scandal of bad behavior, it’ll effect their sales. Also, if payed mods become the standard it’ll effect their sales, as people will be less likely to deal with modding. I have no issue with mod developers making money from their product, but they must also recognize that it’s with the support of the developers of the game. If they decide to remove your mod they can, in many ways.
The argument for these VR mods not running afoul of copyright law as it currently exists is that they’re more like an emulator that supports a significant number of games and don’t really modify the game itself at all. Obviously game companies tend to hate emulators too and have even tried to go after them so you probably can’t trust their judgement on this.
You could even draw parallels here to something like Google’s recently announced autospatialization feature of Android XR that will make it possible to play any game (in theory, in practice some games will probably work better than others) with 3D visuals. Google certainly isn’t offering that for free since it only works on an Android device that they get paid for because it is using their software.
Sure, in the sense that you get fewer quality mods. Is that what you meant by “benefits everyone”?