Privacy for me has been incredibly rewarding, but when talking to people who haven’t been introduced to privacy, there are occasionally some moments that make it exhausting. One conversation in particular is one that I’ve had to go through dozens of times, and it always goes along these lines:
- Alice: Why is your phone in airplane mode? / What’s your phone number?
- Bob: I don’t have a carrier.
- Alice: But you have a phone.
- Bob: Yes.
- Alice: How do you not have a carrier?
- Bob: Phones can come without a carrier.
- Alice: What do you use it for?
- Bob: Everything you use yours for.
- Alice: How do you talk to people?
- Bob: Messaging apps over Wi-Fi.
- Alice: What if you don’t have Wi-Fi?
- Bob: Public Wi-Fi is everywhere. If I don’t have Wi-Fi, I likely don’t need to get in touch.
- Alice: What about emergencies?
- Bob: I can still contact emergency services.
Each time it happens, it has a unique flavor. One person accused me of lying and then fraud. I know people are just curious and don’t mean to be rude, but it makes me die a little inside every time someone asks. I’ve begun trying to sidestep the conversation entirely:
- Alice: Why is your phone in airplane mode?
- Bob: To save battery.
or:
- Alice: What’s your phone number?
- Bob: You can contact me with an app called Signal.
People seem to think that a phone automatically comes with a carrier and that it’ll stop working if you don’t have one. In reality, I’m saving hundreds of dollars per year while avoiding spam, fraud, breaches, surveillance, and being chronically online. People have a hard time coping with those who do things a little differently.
Wait, you need a phone # for signal…i thought.
Also, this method only works for people in massive cities (1mil+). Less than that good luck getting wifi. That is too much of a massive convenience for little gain, if they want to find you, they will. They’ll just tap into your family or your neighbors phone.
Say you get lost or run out of gas. Gonna a call 911 every time that happens? What if youre on the way to a friend’s house and they call and tell you they have to cancel or they need you to pick up something for them?
Yes, I lived before cell phones were a thing. But I cant imagine many people would put up with you. At least get a damn Jitterbug!
Wait, you need a phone # for signal…i thought.
You do. You can sign up with a VoIP number or a burner phone.
Also, this method only works for people in massive cities (1mil+). Less than that good luck getting wifi.
I don’t need to stay constantly connected. Even when Wi-Fi is available, I rarely have the need to use it.
That is too much of a massive convenience for little gain, if they want to find you, they will.
People have different threat models, so it’s not for everyone, but it’s certainly worth it for me.
They’ll just tap into your family or your neighbors phone.
And find what? Encrypted Signal messages?
Say you get lost or run out of gas.
GPS works without cellular, and I cycle instead of driving.
Gonna a call 911 every time that happens?
I can borrow someone else’s phone or keep an emergency phone switched off until it’s needed.
What if youre on the way to a friend’s house and they call and tell you they have to cancel or they need you to pick up something for them?
Stuff happens. If I really need to stay connected, I can use an external hotspot.
Yes, I lived before cell phones were a thing. But I cant imagine many people would put up with you.
If it’s that big of a deal that someone won’t associate with me, that is entirely their problem. It’s rarely ever an inconvenience for them.
So everyone you interact with uses signal, and no other Google apps, they all have rooted phones and no smart tvs etc? You avoid all traffic cameras and ring doorbells/other people’s phone cameras/microphones?
I find this hard to believe, or you are a real life 007!
Also im not being an ass if it sounded like it, im genuinely intrigued by this. I would be a hermit if I lived like that.
So everyone you interact with uses signal, and no other Google apps, they all have rooted phones and no smart tvs etc? You avoid all traffic cameras and ring doorbells/other people’s phone cameras/microphones?
Privacy is not about absolutism. You do what you can within your threat model to stay protected.
Sure I get that. But youre going to a lot of trouble to not actually be very secure in the grand scheme. At most, you are making the advertisers .0000001 cent less per year vs if you used big tech junk. Unless youre convincing 10,000 others to step back into 1991, its not making a difference. (Im all for that if you have the time machine btw!)
Hey man if you got time and energy for it, keep on it! I truly like interacting with such different people on here, its awesome.
At most, you are making the advertisers .0000001 cent less per year vs if you used big tech junk. Unless youre convincing 10,000 others to step back into 1991, its not making a difference.
It actually makes a much bigger difference than you think. I remember a site that showed how much advertisers made off of you while you’ve been viewing, but I can’t seem to find it. They make dollars off of you every second. Ad blocking alone has made so much of a difference that YouTube has tried intentionally slowing down their service to ad block users as a way to discourage it. I have no better way to show you how big of an impact it actually makes. Even in your own life, using a password manager can save yourself from getting hacked. This thread isn’t really for fighting about why privacy is important, but there’s plenty of other sources talking about it.
I can see that i guess. I wont use the internet without ad blockers.
Good guides, ive read a few of those. The journey is slow! But I figure as long as I have a Samsung android phone, im screwed privacy wise even if all my pcs run linux. So its either live with a neutered linux phone or this. Maybe the lightphone would work but it would have to actually work with all the banking, airplane, and hotel apps that are all proprietary and usually require Google play store. They got us pinned down man. Unless you live in a cave and never venture out.
So its either live with a neutered linux phone or this. Maybe the lightphone would work but it would have to actually work with all the banking, airplane, and hotel apps that are all proprietary and usually require Google play store.
GrapheneOS is a hardened version of Android that removes the privacy invasive elements. You can still optionally install Google Play Services if you need to install apps from there, but it runs in a sandboxed environment so it doesn’t have the same invasive permissions.
I think you’re a bit too stuck in the “immediate access to everyone” way of things
if I get lost, having cell service won’t help me, because I have GPS on my phone that can show me where to go. and if I’m lost in the backcountry… I already don’t have cell service lol
if my car breaks down, I’ll wait until somebody comes along and ask for help
if I’m on my way somewhere and somebody wants me to cancel, then I’ll get the message when I stop for a coffee or I’ll show up and then go home. if they want me to pick something up last minute… it doesn’t get picked up on my way over. not a big deal.
I have cell service. have for years. but the more time goes on, the less I find it necessary. and the more anecdotal evidence I have to support that.
important note: I do not have children or family members in vulnerable condition
Weird take, I have two phones and only one has service. The iPhone. My Android phone is older, and it works just fine over WiFi. I’ve disabled cellular in settings. So it’s now functionally a tablet. And before you ask if I have the phone app on my dock, I don’t have a dock. It’s actually being used as an Animal Crossing cosplay prop. It has a NookPhone case, and while it does have a different wallpaper, the apps have Animal Crossing themed icons. So NookMusic is Apple Music, Messaging is Telegram, Passport is my Animal Crossing item/collectible tracking app (which also has links to my island/character), stuff like that. But I mean, you can swipe up and get the app drawer, and see all the apps installed. It even uses the iPhone gesture controls (Samsung offers this natively in the settings), because the NookPhone doesn’t have the Back/Home/Task buttons.
When it’s on, if it can’t find my home WiFi, it hops on my iPhone’s hotspot feature. It has signal most places. (And while it doesn’t have Signal installed, AFAIK, my iPhone does.)
Do you use your phone for navigation when driving? Any good app recommendations for navigating without cellular data?
Last time I checked, you can use GPS without carrier. GPS, and GNSS in general, is separate set of satellites. With cellular It’s just more precise since initial triangulation facilitated by cell towers. I recently was mid 5 hours flight and was able to see my location in google maps despite being in flight mode
*Cycling, but yes. I use CoMaps.
Ultimate Lemming:
- Cycles only, detects cars
- Uses CoMaps
- Uses Archlinux?
Im just jokin with ya 😉
2 and 3 check out with me, but 1st point is public transport only. Preferably trains + trams.
Although buses have the advantage that I can sit in the front where I can see the road, and they also tend to be less illuminated so I can see outside at night.
I wish there were dark carriages. Coach buses will have a few blue LEDs near the floor, but a train has to come with full sun worth of light.
Hopefully they can be overhauling UI to be much better. Would be cool if they made calls to wider community for UI people to come in to help out
I can second CoMaps. Works great when I’m somewhere and don’t have a local SIM.
Organic maps found on F Droid, download the state or area you want so is available offline. Won’t do traffic obviously, but gets you a to be.
Herewego works offline.
Yeah I dont get the comaps hype. It sucks anywhere that’s not a megalopolis. Here wego is far far better (for me).
People seem to think that a phone automatically comes with a carrier and that it’ll stop working if you don’t have one.
Not all phones have a carrier, but 99% of them need one if you want to make normal phone calls.
I’ve never had someone ask me for my phone number. They usually ask me to text them, at which point they have my (throw away) number.
Everyone is totally unaware when I’m de-carriered.
I would not be comfortable not having mobile signal. Public WiFi is not going to cut it. Even a 0.00001% chance that I’d miss an important call from my partner is no bueno for me.
You can still purchase an external cellular hotspot, which will be more private than a phone carrier.
Would using an old phone as an external cellular hotspot be almost just as private as using an application specific device?
I just looked at the video and wondered that since there kinda expensive (also I wouldn’t be able to use the calyx hotspots since I don’t live in the US)
There’s a bigger security risk because of a larger attack surface, and naturally phones can collect a lot more data than hotspots, but it depends on your threat model.
Woo hoo! Something new to be paranoid about!
Even a 0.00001% chance that I’d miss an important call from my partner is no bueno for me.
Yikes. I can’t imagine having this level of anxiety about being out of contact.
I wouldn’t say it’s an anxiety, I’d say it’s a cost-benefit analysis I’ve done and decided that having cell service to catch a potential emergency call is more important to me than that one extra level of privacy like OP. Hell, I don’t want to miss a call even if it isn’t an emergency. I love my partner and want to talk to them any chance I can get; if they’re calling I want to answer.
I’m happy for you.
I think you dramatically overestimate both the cost of missing a call, and the benefit of not missing a call.
That said, it sure is convenient.
Your pain is so very relatable, pal 😢
I’ve only met a handful of people that don’t question it and just accept my personal choices. One person even tried stepping in when someone asked for my email to tell them I didn’t have one. I do have email, but the gesture was still nice. Those are the ones worth keeping around.
My struggle is to not get bitter/angry at these situations. I have to keep reminding myself that there are about a billion other ways in which I am ignorant of things that are equally important. And that just a few years ago, I too, was completely on the big tech bandwagon (but only reluctantly so).
My struggle is to not get bitter/angry at these situations.
That’s why I’m complaining online instead! /s
The best thing you can do is just prepare yourself for situations you might end up in, and practice your responses. When someone asked why I don’t have a carrier, I instinctively said “Privacy reasons” and then immediately realized what was about to come. It takes practice, even if you mess up a couple times.
Agreed!
I thought you had to have a phone number to use Signal.
Could have a voip phone number
I don’t know how to get one and shouldn’t have to, just to use an app like Signal. Why isn’t there one we can use without having to give them a phone #?
Just use matrix or xmpp. Signal is centralized. If they stop offering the service it’s gone forever.
There’s always a compromise between security and accessibility. Signal is nice in that it’s pretty secure while also being acceptable. More secure options aren’t very accessible to the average person.
That seems like a better idea, but it 's the same old problem where you’d have to get the people you want to communicate with to switch from Signal to that.
SimpleX uses the Signal engine but requires no phone number.
A search for that term brings up about 10 different things from crypto to herpes, nothing about a messaging app
Search for it in the Google play store.
Airalo also exists if your phone supports eSIM.
Just keep in mind that the purpose of Airplane Mode is to prevent transmission. Your phone might still be receiving signals like GPS and WiFi SSIDs, which it can record to be transmitted later.
If you really don’t want to be tracked, leave it home.
oh wow. mine actually is airplane mode to save battery. TIL.
you can use services like jmp.chat to get a reliable number anonymously for verifying anything that requires one
Privacy but using public WiFi?..
My devices distrust any network, and I always use a VPN. It’s obviously not my first choice, but it can still be done safe enough.
If the wifi has firewall blocking non web ports, do you have a solution for those cases?
Mullvad VPN and others have “obfuscation” methods to mask your traffic as regular web traffic. If those don’t work, I can always connect to a proxy or Tor as a plan B, or see if any other Wi-Fi networks are available. I’ve never had this be an issue, but there are certainly options available.
The threat of public wifi isn’t as big of a deal as it used to be. Before widespread VPNs and when internet traffic was unencrypted, anything you transmitted could be read by someone else on the network. But nowadays all an eavesdropper would see is what websites you’re connecting to (without a VPN) or the VPN if you are using one. Happy to be corrected if I’m mistaken though
The sad truth is: you can’t talk about online privacy with normal people, they just won’t understand, if you try to explain it, they don’t care, simple as that! They’ll ignore anything you say and probably call you paranoid.
I generally keep my privacy habits to myself, but if someone asks I will tell them. It’s always better to try with a chance of getting them interested than not to try at all.
Hello, wife?
I have shared and exposed my close friends to it and they use signal with me
If you are an old programmer/geek young people will dismiss you even though they don’t even know what a folder is. They think they are IT experts because they can apply the latest instagram filters to their photos.
I made a website whose entire existence is dedicated to my “profile” (myname.com). So when someone asks for contact info, I send them there. It gives them the opportunity to contact me using their preferred method, as well as being able to easily find it in the future if they lose it or I change it.
It has:
- phone # (obv could be omitted)
- link to Signal
- link to ArcaneChat
- link to Matrix
- link to SimpleX
- my blog
- Mastodon
- Steam
- Zelle
- etc.
It’s also the first link that comes up, or one of the first, for most people, if they Google me. I also carry basically a business card, but without the business, with QR code and domain.
I also carry basically a business card, but without the business, with QR code and domain.
I wanted to do this and only put my contact for my SimpleX Chat, but good business cards are expensive!
Especially if you’re looking for that perfect shade of white.
they’re embossed, aren’t they?
I got 250 of them from VistaPrint in 2019 for <$50 and still have a bunch left.
E: just checked and they are $18 for 50
This sounds like a great idea but I do worry about crawlers scraping this gold mine of personal details. Do you put the site behind a password that you include on the business card or something?
No, I don’t consider any of this to be private or valuable information.
