Dbzero Governance Vote Post https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/63525728
Ahoy mateys!
A few of our users have recently pointed out that a lot of the pro-Zionist accounts on the fediverse nowadays seem to come from the feddit.org instance.
But whatever the excuse happens to be, they need to do better imo. Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there). And yet feddit.org seems to regard the Palestinians fighting against Israel’s ongoing illegal occupation of their land as the real terrorists. …
More context
Our instance already voted to ban pro-Zionist accounts (see https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/60585441 for reference) and the rule that was implemented is here: Golden Rule #8.
As further context, you can find relevant comments and discussion in this post by a banned feddit admin in MoG (that fact they chose to post in MoG is in itself quite telling), and this post about their defederation from quokk.au over anti-semitism allegations has recently become active again. …
Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.
In the end the Post had around 70% of support by dbzer0 users, who in the comments also called for defederation.
Here is a Link to Dbzer0 instances tab https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/instances where if you go to blocked instances you can see fedddit.org is now defederated
i dont think feddit has made a post now, but when they do i will add it
I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.
I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.
On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.
Lemmy.ml has a lot of communists, and dbzer0 is mainly anarchists with some communists as well. We have a lot more in common with each other than with feddit.org, which as we can see has a bad history with Zionism at the admin level. It’s entirely consistent to defederate feddit.org, which dbzer0 voted for as an instance, while remaining federated with Lemmy.ml.
This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.
The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.
The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.
Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.
However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.
Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.
Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.
This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.
Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]”.
Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.
I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.
And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.
I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.
In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, abiding to the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.
Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.
True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers.
“Black and white thinking” is when you don’t like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying “it’s the law”?
This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.
“Opposing genocide is the same as being MAGA because of vibes” is really incredible analysis, keep it up.
discuss.tchncs.de
Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.
the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany
Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?
You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.
If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear as well, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust yet. That does not mean that the genocide in Gaza isn’t absolutely terrible, what I’m saying is that the Holocaust was just that bad. Is that enough amendment?
Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.
As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.
Look into the story of Muhammed Bhar or Hind Rijab and tell me it’s not. I’ll tell you your soul is compromised.
I absolutely agree with you, in fact I even said somewhere else in these comments that some of the stuff Israel is doing is on the same level or worse than what happened in Nazi Germany.
However, you said it literally yourself, it’s not on the same scale (yet).
Also, if you read my original comment carefully, I’m personally not even agreeing with the way this issue is handled, in my opinion, go ahead, compare Israel to Nazis. My only goal was to create understanding, and show that no, feddit.org is not actually Zionist.
The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.
“The Jews never fought back” is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.
In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.
Do you not understand colonialism? Of course you think history began on October 7th, 2023, but only when it concerns the actions of “Israelis”.
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you really not understand that Hamas did not exist before the genocide of Palestinians started? They cannot have provoked this in any way, as you repeatedly have attempted to imply with your arguments that this is different from the Holocaust.
The “Israelis” are colonizers. Not a single acre of the land they live on is rightfully theirs. It’s all stolen, except maybe a very, very small minority of Jews who lived there prior to the colonization AND consider themselves “Israelis” now AND still live on their ancestral properties, but even they still benefit from the colonialism.
I’m not misinterpreting what you said. It’s just that what you said doesn’t actually make sense the way you think it does, because you think (incorrectly) that this is a thousand year old religious conflict. That’s orientalist propaganda designed to make you support the existence of “Israel”.
In reality, where this is not a thousand year conflict but a hundred year colonization and genocide, the only way what you said makes any sense is if the Jews didn’t fight back. Because Hamas is fighting back and you are arguing it’s different from the Jewish reaction to the Holocaust. The Jews did fight back. It’s not different.
Edit: I just realized this is a 10 hour old comment I replied to in the parallel thread.
Do you not understand colonialism?
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.
From your other comment next to this one…
“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.
Do you not see how you’re not being consistent?
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree, I’m just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people’s brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.
I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that.
Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.
What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree
We do disagree. Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies, which is why you can never meaningfully oppose it no matter how much you think you do.
Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.
Wait… Are you saying that Israelis became the “nomad nation” and moved from country to country just for shits and giggles? That they left Israel because they wanted to, and not because the Persians persecuted them?
Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies
Could you elaborate? Does that mean that Israelis shoot rockets at themselves?
I’ve noticed this too and have been following the conversation. However, I think self-isolation isn’t the answer. Allowing r/The_Donald to go private didn’t stop the far right.
What works is challenging these people, constantly. Mockery, abuse, whatever it takes. But building up echo-chambers, or allowing echo-chambers isn’t the solution.
Idk if it’s building echo chambers in this case or just wanting to get away from a toxic admin.
See the comments and actively of them before the vote and then as it was happening
Plenty have alleged that db0 admins are toxic. I don’t think that but plenty have. See the ptb sub.
People throw around all kinds of slanderous language all the time: it’s the internet, our accent is hyperbole. It’s fine.
The bigger issue that I see here is the cultural tendency to not want your viewpoint challenged, and that’s coming from both sides on this one. It’s also an issue on ml and hexbear; and those instances will throw the same accusations right back in the face of the broader fediverse, and not be wrong.
Every defederation hurts the fediverse, and substantially. The issues that came up in 23’ between .world and .ml, things like that destroy these kinds of projects. Defederation also doesn’t change the minds of those who are on feddit, and for the db0, and versus vice. If you think someone is wrong, you should tell them so, and you need to be able to tell them.
I think it’s the wrong move. I think defederation is always the wrong move. It’s more important to fight about important things than it is to be comfortable right now. If db0 users think feddit is a bunch of fascist Zionists, then get into the comments and call them out. Don’t just let them comfortably be Zionists while you ignore the problem. And the same applies to feddit. If they’ve got the right of it, take the fight and defend your points.
But defederation is a lazy and community damaging move, not just to db0, but to the entire project. Defederation is how Lemmy dies.
If my instance didn’t defederate hexbear I wouldn’t be on the fediverse at all.
What makes it different from just blocking the instance at user-level?
It makes it so I don’t have to individually block the myriad trolls that emanate from that cesspool. I was seriously a couple pig shit images from never opening this site again.
I was reading the original discussion on dbzer0 and kept wondering what the removed by mod was under every comment agreeing with either partial ban or defed, so I looked at the modlog. It was literally the same pigshit picture posted over and over again, almost twenty times, by the same user, though fortunately I only had to see it once, by choice.
That’s a serious personal commitment to assholery right there, and this is apparently just one of the people coming over to do this on dbzer0 comms. To be honest I can’t claim to understand some of the political nuance that was coming up in the thread, but that one dude sure did make a strong argument for defed via the modlog, lol. If that’s an example of what dbzer0 has to put up with from multiple individual users of another instance, then considering defederation is absolutely a legitimate discussion to have.
I mean, allowing echo chambers doesnt really seem avoidable on fedi tho? Like, only one side has to defederate to break two way communication, so if someone wants to avoid you, you cant really stop them, and the whole concept of moderation in a decentralized system relies on each instance being able to selectively view or block content from other instances based on the values of that instance. You cant really say “what works is challenging people” if the people you want to challenge have an “ignore” button for when you get too loud for their taste.
I mean it is. Look at .ml versus . world versus say… hexbear.
Banning, defederation,anything to de-voice people: it’s constantly being used to create local echo chambers. And it’s not like we don’t have a down vote button. We have a way to do “no” to content. But banning or defederation is saying “I don’t think you should be able to form an opinion on this content”. It’s very different.
And it’s not like we don’t have a down vote button.
I’ve been banned from communities merely for downvoting posts in them. Such behavior is toxic (on the part of the community’s mods, not me), but that doesn’t stop it from happening.
Interesting that finally there starts to be some reprecusions for the Germans being so pro genocide. I know it’s a very small gesture in a very nish social media but I’m happy about it neverthe less.
This solidifies my decision for migrating my account from there to piefed.social. Not because I support those views but because this means that many of the communities I’m subscribed to won’t be visible anymore from there. Personally I’ve not seen the problem in the mentioned communities but I also don’t actively participate in deep political discussions especially regarding Israel/Palestine since I don’t have the energy for that.
You know you can just have multiple accounts on multiple instances, right? That gets you just about as full a view on the Fediverse as you might want. Heck, the only reason I’m not doing it is because I’m lazy.
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is… not the win you think it is.
Also, whining about db0 then moving to the instance that literally implements CCP politics and shadow profiling and comes from a dev known to have had a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness (if not against neurodivergence) is… not the win you think it is.
Can you provide some sources for that?
Counterpoints:
- regarding “CCP politics and shadow profiling”, it’s referring to a few content filters that Piefed can do, but they are disabled by default and are all configurable: https://piefed.zip/c/fediverse/p/1005977/piefed-admin-settings-that-allow-to-enable-or-disable-content-filters-they-are-disabled-by#post_replies
- regarding “a chip against heteronormativity and weirdness”, https://piefed.blahaj.zone/ is using Piefed, which they probably wouldn’t do it the dev was a bigot. Also, pronouns are built-in the platform.
If you want to know a bit more about Rimu, the main Piefed dev, he made an interview a couple of months ago: https://tubefree.org/w/jLPZXv1Jynv7LRcuoteARf
He’s usually quite nice and helpful. That’s not always the case with people who try to spread disinformation about Piefed.
lol so you join the place with the social credit score
What is that?
piefed.social keeps a hidden trust score that goes down when people do stuff the piefed dev personally doesn’t like. there was recently a bunch of drama about it
Technically, it’s an astrospam measure.
No they use something else for that, ie limit what new accounts can do.
The credit score is just doing things the dev doesn’t like/shouldn’t be done
https://join.piefed.social/2024/06/22/piefed-features-for-growing-healthy-communities/
There’s nothing in that post about ❝credit scores.❞ Karma is what threadiverse uses to evaluate posts, comments, communties, and accounts.
There is attitude and reputation
Time to defederate dbzer0?
Oh no, how will dbzer0 survive without access to a constant supply of condescending Finnish cryptofascist opinions?
How to we call a tankie triad when it is actually four? dbz0 is following ml, hexbear and lemmygrad for a longer time now.
Tankie is when you don’t support genocidal imperialism.
Liberals calling anarchists tankies would be funny if it weren’t such a damning statement on their own political literacy. I guess it is a little funny, but still…
Tankie is when you are left to Dick Chaney’s children for such people.
Its such an empty criticism when they federate with the ml instances.
Lemmy.ml, Hexbear.net, and Lemmygrad.ml are all extremely anti-Zionist. Further, dbzer0 defederated from Lemmygrad.ml, and is only federated with Lemmy.ml and Hexbear.net. What are you trying to say?
Nobody would ever accuse you people of defending Jews so it can’t be that you are Zionists. Its about the simping for authoritarian regimes.
Communists absolutely defend Jewish peoples, Zionism is anti-semitic, especially anti-Yiddish. We also don’t “simp for authoritarian regimes,” we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists. None of this is “simping,” I support worker-run structures because it’s more equitable and democratic.
we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists.
I feel like, despite this being explained every time, people still think “dictatorship of the proletariat” is a bad thing because of the word “dictatorship”…
No its because this person is lying. They dont honestly believe in a worker run democracy. Its just a palatable phrase they use to appear less extreme.
They support a political class with total control benevolently dishing out to the working population.
Nope, not what I believe at all, and the fact that you have to invent my beliefs proves you can’t actually argue against my real ones.
Please find the open Zionist admins and mods of major communities who are from .ml. They have their own issues, but Zionism isn’t one of them.
I don’t get it. Huh? I find sentiment on .ml extremely anti-Zionist.
They’re pretty anti zionist. Only because Israel represents the west in all its brutality. They fully support the Russian invasion and genocide of Ukraine though, hence the hypocrisy.
There is no genocide in Ukraine. Ukranians are Russians.
Truly a .ml stance haha. Do you think the people in Ukraine consider themselves Russian? Is that why they’re fighting tooth and nail to avoid the Russian oppressors?
they didn’t say it was hypocritical, just empty criticism. They are implying that ml instances are no less egregious about the types of bad content they allow, even if the content itself is different
They are implying that ml instances are no less egregious about the types of bad content they allow, even if the content itself is different
They are wrong.
You might be a little biased.
“People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to people supporting the USSR, which eliminated Nazism and saved tens of millions of lives from extermination”
“People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to “People supporting “Russia”, the Fascist entity enacting genocide on Ukranians
Russia is, in fact, not enacting genocide on Ukrainians. It’s carrying out an invasion which we can condemn, but calling every conflict a genocide is actually a form of genocide denial, because it minimizes the horrors of actual genocides.
If you want to see criticism of Russia in Hexbear (my main instance), yesterday there was a post asking for peoples’ opinions on Putin. Here’s mine so you can see how much we “love the Russian government”. You may be surprised to see that most comments and upvotes are highly critical of the contemporary Russian government.
Russia is, in fact, enacting genocide in Ukraine.
What Russia is doing:
Tens of thousands of children are being abducted, stripped of their identity, and taught to hate their homeland
https://thewalrus.ca/ukrainian-children/Definition of Genocide:
Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definitionThe source for the tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted is, unsurprisingly, the Ukrainian government. The Russian government makes claims about Ethnic Russians being cleansed in Donbas and I don’t take those accusations as true either, until confirmed by independent journalistic reports. You’d do well to do a more critical analysis of wartime propaganda by countries involved in wars. I’ve had this conversation before with several people, revisited the sources available, and there is no independent journalistic work proving tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted.
The ICC has an arrest warrant on Putin for these abductions.
Putin has used a ukaz/presidential decree to streamline the process of Ukrainian children being made Russian.
Here’s your Independent Journalistic Report:
“It happens, for example, that they go with their parents from the occupied territories through Russia to some third countries. Russians can detain parents, arrest, put them in prison, just take their child to their boarding school. Like, go where you wanted, but your child will stay with us. There are cases when Russians enter a house somewhere in the occupied territory, the child tells them that he lives with his mother, who just went to the store or for water, but they take this child, actually kidnap him, and he finds himself in Russia. I am not talking about the so-called evacuation of children’s boarding institutions from the occupied territories to Russia - this is a separate pain, "says Daria Kasyanova.
But sure, keep telling the world it’s only Ukrainian propaganda. I’m ending this conversation here to log off, I’ve got better things to do than deal with a debatebro hexbear user trying to excuse genocide.
“The source for the crime is, unsurprisingly, the victim, the criminal is denying any wrongdoing” hmmm
Do you really think States under war have no reason to do atrocity propaganda? And you’re mischaracterizing what I said, I denied similar accusations made by Russia
Nice try but the USSR sided with the Nazis remember. They dont get any credit.
I’m gonna paste a comment that I wrote some time ago responding to the whole “Soviets sided with the Nazis” lie that is often propagated on Lemmy. Feel free to respond to it, I’d love to engage with you in its contents:
The only country who offered to start a collective offensive against the Nazis and to uphold the defense agreement with Czechoslovakia as an alternative to the Munich Betrayal was the USSR. From that Wikipedia article: “The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia’s assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.” Poland could have literally been saved from Nazi invasion if France and itself had agreed to start a war together against Nazi Germany, but they didn’t want to. By the logic of “invading Poland” being akin to Nazi collaboration, Poland was as imperialist as the Nazis.
As a Spaniard leftist it’s so infuriating when the Soviet Union, the ONLY country in 1936 which actively fought fascism in Europe by sending weapons, tanks and aviation to my homeland in the other side of the continent in the Spanish civil war against fascism, is accused of appeasing the fascists. The Soviets weren’t dumb, they knew the danger and threat of Nazism and worked for the entire decade of the 1930s under the Litvinov Doctrine of Collective Security to enter mutual defense agreements with England, France and Poland, which all refused because they were convinced that the Nazis would honor their own stated purpose of invading the communists in the East. The Soviets went as far as to offer ONE MILLION troops to France (Archive link against paywall) together with tanks, artillery and aviation in 1939 in exchange for a mutual defense agreement, which the French didn’t agree to because of the stated reason. Just from THIS evidence, the Soviets were by far the most antifascist country in Europe throughout the 1930s, you literally won’t find any other country doing any remotely similar efforts to fight Nazism. If you do, please provide evidence.
The invasion of “Poland” is also severely misconstrued. The Soviets didn’t invade what we think of nowadays when we say Poland. They invaded overwhelmingly Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian lands that Poland had previously invaded in 1919. Poland in 1938, a year before the invasion:
“Polish” territories invaded by the USSR in 1939:
The Soviets invaded famously Polish cities such as Lviv (sixth most populous city in modern Ukraine), Pinsk (important city in western Belarus) and Vilnius (capital of freaking modern Lithuania). They only invaded a small chunk of what you’d consider Poland nowadays, and the rest of lands were actually liberated from Polish occupation and returned to the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian socialist republics. Hopefully you understand the importance of giving Ukrainians back their lands and sovereignty?
Additionally, the Soviets didn’t invade Poland together with the Nazis, they invaded a bit more than two weeks after the Nazi invasion, at a time when the Polish government had already exiled itself and there was no Polish administration. The meaning of this, is that all lands not occupied by Soviet troops, would have been occupied by Nazis. There was no alternative. Polish troops did not resist Soviet occupation but they did resist Nazi invasion. The Soviet occupation effectively protected millions of Slavic peoples like Poles, Ukrainians and Belarusians from the stated aim of Nazis of genociding the Slavic peoples all the way to the Urals.
All in all, my conclusion is: the Soviets were fully aware of the dangers of Nazism and fought against it earlier than anyone (Spanish civil war), spent the entire 30s pushing for an anti-Nazi mutual defence agreement which was refused by France, England and Poland, tried to honour the existing mutual defense agreement with Czechoslovakia which France rejected and Poland didn’t allow (Romania neither but they were fascists so that’s a given), and offered to send a million troops to France’s border with Germany to destroy Nazism but weren’t allowed to do so. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a tool of postponing the war in a period in which the USSR, a very young country with only 10 years of industrialization behind it since the first 5-year plan in 1929, was growing at a 10% GDP per year rate and needed every moment it could get. I can and do criticise decisions such as the invasion of Finland, but ultimately even the western leaders at the time seem to generally agree with my interpretation:
“In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)
“It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.
"One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course” Neville Chamberlain House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact’s signing)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this
It’s sad to see dbzer0 slowly creeping towards authoritarianism. This is exactly the kind of reason I couoldn’t entertain making it my primary instance unfortunately.
It’s kind of a weird argument considering lemmy.world has also blocked other instances, and (correct me if I’m wrong) without a vote on it.
Yet another example of why the abstract concept of “authoritarianism” is useless. In this case, the people of dbzer0 decided democratically to wield their authority to defederate from an instance with an explicit Zionist problem. It isn’t the defederation that’s the problem in the abstract, or the authority, it’s the fact that this authority was used against Zionists.
Nah, it was decided with a vote. The majority in that server wanted Feddit blocked and that’s what came.
Ah yes because nothing authoritarian was ever implemented through a vote…
Personally, I voted against on my db0 account, the top voted comments explain pretty thoroughly why.
Voting to block a domain and having that domain blocked isn’t comparable to electing an authoritarian leader. Dbzer0 can choose who to and not to federate with. Users who don’t like that move to another instance easily.
Voting to block a domain and having that domain blocked isn’t comparable to electing an authoritarian leader.
Nobody has said that? What it does is remove the choice from each individual, which is authoritarian, even if done via majority vote. There was nothing stopping those who wanted the domain blocked to do that themselves.
Nobody removed your choice to change servers
It’s literally part of the point of the fediverse that you can pick hosts who agree with you, who can apply moderation and bans you agree with on your behalf, and if you disagree you move and bring people with you if you can convince them
Nobody removed your choice to change servers
Further evidenced by the fact they’re posting from their non-db0 account after saying they voted on the topic with their db0 account.
This will probably be unpopular but the leftist - liberal infighting is my least favorite part of the fediverse and why I usually end up having to give people a warning before telling them to get on the fediverse.
This drama is kind of the epitome of that
Leftist vs liberal infighting has been going on since the late 1700s.
Of course what you really have to ask yourself is, if they’ve been infighting since basically the beginning and if their ideals are diametrically opposed then is it even in fighting?
I can’t think of any “leftist organisations” that support Zionism ? Maybe you’re confusing fascist with leftist ?
I mean “leftist organization” is a weird term and I would more speak of currents. And there is definitely the Antideutsche or Anti-Germans.
The German left, at least the loud one, is publically dividing between this topic. On demonstration you see a lot of people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy, as there is often only “anti genocide and pro genocide” in online discussions. But the world is very complex and there is a large continuum between Islamic and Jewish ethno state philosophy.
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
“Opposing Hamas makes you a Zionist”, can you confirm that statement?
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
[…] people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism. That makes you a “Zionist” on Lemmy […]
You
It does not make you a Zionist on Lemmy. You are a Zionist in real life.
Again you
You said supporting Hamas is antisemitic. Why are you crawling back to the word Zionism now?
Me
???people openly supporting Hamas, wearing the red triangle etc. For me it is only natural to fight this form of anti semitism
This is a Zionist defense of Israel by conflating antisemitism with anti-Zionism.
Before Lemmy, I didn’t know it was possible to go so left that you hated liberals.
Corporate media didn’t want you to be exposed to any ideas outside of the Overton window.
Liberalism is supportive of capitalism, leftism begins at anti-capitalism. What did you think the left was before Lemmy?
Dang and I just made this account too. Time to find a new instance… Any recommendations? How is lemmy.today?
This whole process has looked sus to me. And on top of that, I don’t think voting by up/downvoting the post itself is a good way to call votes — it means a minority can pass a rule without it being even seen by the majority (not sure that matters in this case). Voting should be done in a top-level comment.
I don’t see a reason why you should. It’s not like the vote didn’t happen for good reason. There’s no good reason to speak to genocide apologists.
Uh oh, if .ml is defending them db0 really is a lost cause.
Edit: Holy tankie brigade, Batman! They’ve really crawled out of the woodwork for this one!
.world user here, I am defending them. Are they a lost cause because they don’t support mass murder or are they are lost cause because they support international justice?
“I was just obeying the German laws” was not a credible defense in the Nürnberg trials, why are you repeating the same logic as the Nazis?
You know that “Anschuldigungen” aka. allegations can turn out to be true, right?? 🤯🤯
Also they seem like good little Germans for enthusiastically following orders pre-emptively and overinterpreting them 🫡🫡🫡
