Way to downplay the self determination of smaller countries! Ukraine allies with the US for the same reason Vietnam often sides with the US over China: the empire next door is a bigger problem than the empire on the other side of the planet. The US is the lesser evil in those situations, especially in Ukraine’s case.
The alternative is being an actual puppet to an empire that sees you as nothing but a buffer and a breadbasket. Being under the thumb of a reformed empire that inflicted famine and genocide on you and other neighbors. The ethnic Russian makeup of post Soviet countries isn’t a mistake, but an example of deliberate imperialism by that Russian empire.
In terms of this disrespect, Ukraine got of easy compared to countries like Kazakhstan. I don’t care how much you complain about landowners in Ukraine, I dare you to defend the population control and environmental destruction there as anything less than imperialist cruelty.
The Soviet Union was a red-washed Russian empire, not some model system that was much different than the liberty-clad American empire. It was not made of equal states, but a dominant power squeezing the rest. Nationalistic bullshit is what the selfish turn to when capitalism runs its course, and that’s what this tankie bullshit is: counter-revolutionary garbage where nothing fundamentally changes. The answers will never be that easy.
Duped by the west into wanting protection from their imperialist neighbor? I wonder why they’d want that? 🤔
America being an evil empire doesn’t make Russia justified in throwing half a million lives down the drain like it’s nothing. Ukraine was never expected by anybody to join NATO until Crimea, and even then, most of the West would’ve preferred neutrality for Ukraine. It was a redline for most of NATO as well, because they knew it was more trouble than it was worth. Wannabe imperial powers like Turkey play their own game, even within NATO.
US bad ≠ Russia good. Russia is very, very bad actually.
How utterly vile of you to call a country cowardly because they don’t toe your ideological line. Have you considered that maybe China is just that much more of a threat right now? That the world isn’t as simple or easy as you want it to be? No, because you’re a pathetic coward who can’t handle the truth.
Don’t worry! The pesticides have already enacted similar horrors on Mexican farm workers for decades. Add that to the effects of pollution on people who live near freeways, my family is intimately aware about such things. They’ve blamed my autism on it, but I only think my mother’s asthma can be definitively linked…
No hug. Not until you promise to stop calling countries cowards for playing empires off one another. Not until you stop simping for empires like it’s team sports. Opening your eyes is the only act of kindness I request of you.
Can you provide a link to a page which shows the text of these agreements? Or maybe the Wikipedia pages of some of the specific agreements you are referring to?
So you’ve done the playing dumb part of your script, and legitimizing Wikipedia as a credible source. Now you’ll move onto the part of, ‘actually I know all about those, and here’s why they don’t count.’
Nice job trying to pre-empt any criticism of your position because you know by your own admission that the role of the Minsk Agreements has been debunked repeatedly. That’s also why you didn’t mention them by name to begin with.
But no, I was not going to say that, because that would be engaging in a “did not” “did too” slap fight which will ultimately end up going nowhere. I prefer to take at face value whatever you guys claim, and then ask questions about the details of your position until we get somewhere where you’d have to admit that your position is inconsistent with itself, that you claim two or more contradictory things to be true at the same time. Usually at that point there is either no more reply or some crazy deflection.
So answer me this, if you can: Why did the violation of the Minsk Agreements make Putin decide to do a full-scale invasion of Ukraine instead of more negotiations to stop the fighting? Is peace not the ultimate and most important goal?
There it is. Seriously, you NAFO bots need a new script. The playing dumb part of it makes you stand out like a sore thumb.
You’re still doing it, too. Pretending you’re not aware of any of the facts or historical context outside of your comment. Which if I then bring up, then you’ll suddenly be aware of those too so that you can argue against it. I’ve done this back and forth with you turds too many times to be caught off guard. And you haven’t changed your methodology in a couple of years.
Is the intention that you don’t want to reveal too much incriminating info for Ukraine and the west? Like only acknowledge them to argue against them, and hope they’re not brought up at all?
The historical context is clear enough that there is no need to talk about any of it: the current events are a continuation of centuries of Russian expansionist imperialist aggression. Their excuses may change but the fact of Russian imperialism does not.
Russia invade inspite of not just agreements, actual treaties, which guarantee Ukraine the liberty to conduct their own foreign policy as they pleased in exchange for their nuclear arsenal.
Except those treaties and agreements were broken by Ukraine and NATO years before the Russian invasion. And every foreign policy expert advised against it at the time. Even Henry Kissinger warned the west was intentionally trying to provoke an invasion from Russia, and not honoring the agreements.
Those bombs are blowing up people in Ukraine, statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is.
Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine? Has that been true one single time since WWII?
There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.
Its only choice is how many of it’s kids they want to send into a meatgrinder trying to hold onto the Russian-speaking territories whose people it didn’t seem to like very much before the invasion, and it seems to like even less now.
There’s no realistic way for Ukraine to push Russia out, let alone deal with the resulting insurgency. Same applies if Russia tried to hold the Ukrainian-majority territories. Actually they’re probably in for an insurgency either way given their conduct.
Also if an asshole came up to you, shot you in the leg and demanded your house, how would you react when people around you said “just give him the garden and cellar as compromise”
Mate, the only thing you have to say is that Ukraine is getting fucked over left and right. Instead you find the strangest ways to twist that into apologizing for Russian imperialist interests.
statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is
Surely you understand the very different nature of America’s recent conflicts (air strikes on small numbers of militants living among civilians) to the war in Ukraine (frontlines where civilians have been evacuated and every building has been destroyed). Or taking your numbers of 10 to 140 civilians for every enemy combatant, are you suggesting that Ukrainian soldiers have killed on the order of a million to ten million civilians as “collateral damage”?
Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine?
I believe that is irrelevant to the Ukrainians. They are happy to get any support they can to help fight off their would-be oppressors. Whether or not America is interested in improving the conditions for the people of Ukraine, it only takes one look at Russia and then at the EU to see where the common people have a better standard of living.
There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.
Of those three, only Russia can end the war unilaterally with no downsides to any party. Ukraine can only end the war unilaterally if they want to be subjugated under Russian oppression. I fail to see how America could end the war unilaterally. Even if they cut all military support to Ukraine, Ukrainians will keep fighting because they do not want to be ruled by Russia.
I am under no impression that Putin wants to save Ukraine. I am observing that what is happening is far worse than if they had agreed to the peace deal they had in 2022, and far far worse than if they simply enforced the minsk II agreement.
It would have been better if Russia had abided by the Minsk II agreement. Better yet, if the Budapest memorandum had been enforced and Russia not invaded its sovereign neighbor to begin with. But power is the only language Russia speaks.
Ukraine desperately wants those bombs. They remember what it was like living under Russian imperialist rule. They remember that Russia genocided 10% of their population the last time they were conquered.
The government of Ukraine wants those bombs to take control over a territory filled with people they are openly hostile to. The people, like all people, want to live in peace.
Do you really think that this particular bourgeoisie democracy, unlike all the others, represents the people? One that has suspended elections and throws people in prison for “questioning Ukraine’s territorial integrity”?
Every single military action the US has taken since WWII, the US has been acting directly contrary to the interests of the people it claimed to be helping, and every single time the US population gets duped into thinking this time they’re there to help. Why do you think this one is different?
What they’re defending against is being raped, murdered, starved and having their children stolen by Russia. All you Tankies always try to distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses left in Russia’s wake. You don’t get to ignore the 300 thousand children stolen by Russia or the 5 million killed in the Holodomor.
distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses
You are the one advocating for more human lives to be sacrificed over some nationalist horseshit. Every bomb we send adds more corpses to the pile. I want peace as quickly as possible.
The Holodomor happened years after Russia achieved their so-called “peace”. The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation. The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose and preferably Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity.
The holodomor happened to the USSR during wide-spread crop failure, it’s kinda irrelevent to modern Russia.
The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation
There will be similar amounts of suffering and death under the other bourgeoisie democracy run by a literal billionaire. Either would be far, far better for the people than what they are experiencing now.
Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity
Yup, same with Zelensky, Biden, Trump, and most every other leader who could stop this and doesn’t.
The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose
“America should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting Russia.
Way to downplay the self determination of smaller countries! Ukraine allies with the US for the same reason Vietnam often sides with the US over China: the empire next door is a bigger problem than the empire on the other side of the planet. The US is the lesser evil in those situations, especially in Ukraine’s case.
The alternative is being an actual puppet to an empire that sees you as nothing but a buffer and a breadbasket. Being under the thumb of a reformed empire that inflicted famine and genocide on you and other neighbors. The ethnic Russian makeup of post Soviet countries isn’t a mistake, but an example of deliberate imperialism by that Russian empire.
In terms of this disrespect, Ukraine got of easy compared to countries like Kazakhstan. I don’t care how much you complain about landowners in Ukraine, I dare you to defend the population control and environmental destruction there as anything less than imperialist cruelty.
The Soviet Union was a red-washed Russian empire, not some model system that was much different than the liberty-clad American empire. It was not made of equal states, but a dominant power squeezing the rest. Nationalistic bullshit is what the selfish turn to when capitalism runs its course, and that’s what this tankie bullshit is: counter-revolutionary garbage where nothing fundamentally changes. The answers will never be that easy.
Indeed. it’s the result of genocide. A genocide still ongoing in Ukraine as we speak. Which is something we should be mentioning a lot more
But… But… Nazis or some shit, its perfectly fine since they are all Nazis for sure. We will save Ukraine with this 3 day operation.
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Duped by the west into wanting protection from their imperialist neighbor? I wonder why they’d want that? 🤔
America being an evil empire doesn’t make Russia justified in throwing half a million lives down the drain like it’s nothing. Ukraine was never expected by anybody to join NATO until Crimea, and even then, most of the West would’ve preferred neutrality for Ukraine. It was a redline for most of NATO as well, because they knew it was more trouble than it was worth. Wannabe imperial powers like Turkey play their own game, even within NATO.
US bad ≠ Russia good. Russia is very, very bad actually.
While true, just makes a war only for Ukraine’s NATO aspiration that much stupider, or more likely dishonest.
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How utterly vile of you to call a country cowardly because they don’t toe your ideological line. Have you considered that maybe China is just that much more of a threat right now? That the world isn’t as simple or easy as you want it to be? No, because you’re a pathetic coward who can’t handle the truth.
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Don’t worry! The pesticides have already enacted similar horrors on Mexican farm workers for decades. Add that to the effects of pollution on people who live near freeways, my family is intimately aware about such things. They’ve blamed my autism on it, but I only think my mother’s asthma can be definitively linked…
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No hug. Not until you promise to stop calling countries cowards for playing empires off one another. Not until you stop simping for empires like it’s team sports. Opening your eyes is the only act of kindness I request of you.
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Easy to say from the comfort of your armchair.
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“Russia should stop sending bombs to its puppet” is not supporting the US.
I concur. Sadly I do not live in Russia and can’t call up Putin and tell him to knock it off.
You know very well that Putin will knock you off the window if you said that.
Give me his number and I’ll call him. I hear he’s doing things in Georgia, lets see if he comes up to SC to throw me out a window.
That makes it evem more wild that you seem to support him.
It is when those bombs are actively helping to stop Russian imperialism.
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Can you provide a link to a page which shows the text of these agreements? Or maybe the Wikipedia pages of some of the specific agreements you are referring to?
The Minsk Agreements.
So you’ve done the playing dumb part of your script, and legitimizing Wikipedia as a credible source. Now you’ll move onto the part of, ‘actually I know all about those, and here’s why they don’t count.’
You guys need a new script.
Nice job trying to pre-empt any criticism of your position because you know by your own admission that the role of the Minsk Agreements has been debunked repeatedly. That’s also why you didn’t mention them by name to begin with.
But no, I was not going to say that, because that would be engaging in a “did not” “did too” slap fight which will ultimately end up going nowhere. I prefer to take at face value whatever you guys claim, and then ask questions about the details of your position until we get somewhere where you’d have to admit that your position is inconsistent with itself, that you claim two or more contradictory things to be true at the same time. Usually at that point there is either no more reply or some crazy deflection.
So answer me this, if you can: Why did the violation of the Minsk Agreements make Putin decide to do a full-scale invasion of Ukraine instead of more negotiations to stop the fighting? Is peace not the ultimate and most important goal?
There it is. Seriously, you NAFO bots need a new script. The playing dumb part of it makes you stand out like a sore thumb.
You’re still doing it, too. Pretending you’re not aware of any of the facts or historical context outside of your comment. Which if I then bring up, then you’ll suddenly be aware of those too so that you can argue against it. I’ve done this back and forth with you turds too many times to be caught off guard. And you haven’t changed your methodology in a couple of years.
Is the intention that you don’t want to reveal too much incriminating info for Ukraine and the west? Like only acknowledge them to argue against them, and hope they’re not brought up at all?
The historical context is clear enough that there is no need to talk about any of it: the current events are a continuation of centuries of Russian expansionist imperialist aggression. Their excuses may change but the fact of Russian imperialism does not.
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Russia invade inspite of not just agreements, actual treaties, which guarantee Ukraine the liberty to conduct their own foreign policy as they pleased in exchange for their nuclear arsenal.
Except those treaties and agreements were broken by Ukraine and NATO years before the Russian invasion. And every foreign policy expert advised against it at the time. Even Henry Kissinger warned the west was intentionally trying to provoke an invasion from Russia, and not honoring the agreements.
And how where they broken by Ukraine?
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You guys really removed that?
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Those bombs are blowing up people in Ukraine, statistically in America’s conflicts, it’s like 10 civilians to 140 for every “enemy combatant”, and I doubt the Ukrainian conscripts are more disciplined and trained than America is.
Do you genuinely believe America has any interest at all in improving conditions for the people of Ukraine? Has that been true one single time since WWII?
There’s 3 parties here who can unilaterally end the war that has killed or wounded over a million and displaced millions more, America, Russia, and Ukraine.
Oh, how can Ukraine end the war without essentially giving up and letting Russia win territories through this imperialistic war?
Its only choice is how many of it’s kids they want to send into a meatgrinder trying to hold onto the Russian-speaking territories whose people it didn’t seem to like very much before the invasion, and it seems to like even less now.
There’s no realistic way for Ukraine to push Russia out, let alone deal with the resulting insurgency. Same applies if Russia tried to hold the Ukrainian-majority territories. Actually they’re probably in for an insurgency either way given their conduct.
Lots of words for saying “they can’t”
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Also if an asshole came up to you, shot you in the leg and demanded your house, how would you react when people around you said “just give him the garden and cellar as compromise”
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Mate, the only thing you have to say is that Ukraine is getting fucked over left and right. Instead you find the strangest ways to twist that into apologizing for Russian imperialist interests.
because capitulation always works … i forget, didn’t we try that before? oh yeah in the 40s… that worked out great
you can’t let the bully get what they want otherwise they won’t stop
Surely you understand the very different nature of America’s recent conflicts (air strikes on small numbers of militants living among civilians) to the war in Ukraine (frontlines where civilians have been evacuated and every building has been destroyed). Or taking your numbers of 10 to 140 civilians for every enemy combatant, are you suggesting that Ukrainian soldiers have killed on the order of a million to ten million civilians as “collateral damage”?
I believe that is irrelevant to the Ukrainians. They are happy to get any support they can to help fight off their would-be oppressors. Whether or not America is interested in improving the conditions for the people of Ukraine, it only takes one look at Russia and then at the EU to see where the common people have a better standard of living.
Of those three, only Russia can end the war unilaterally with no downsides to any party. Ukraine can only end the war unilaterally if they want to be subjugated under Russian oppression. I fail to see how America could end the war unilaterally. Even if they cut all military support to Ukraine, Ukrainians will keep fighting because they do not want to be ruled by Russia.
“Trump just wants to save America”. That’s what you sound like.
I am under no impression that Putin wants to save Ukraine. I am observing that what is happening is far worse than if they had agreed to the peace deal they had in 2022, and far far worse than if they simply enforced the minsk II agreement.
It would have been better if Russia had abided by the Minsk II agreement. Better yet, if the Budapest memorandum had been enforced and Russia not invaded its sovereign neighbor to begin with. But power is the only language Russia speaks.
Not clear how Russia didn’t abide by Minsk. Ukraine/west are the ones who didn’t abide. You’re saying running out of patience is “not abiding”?
None of which is the primary reason people criticize ml instances, and you know it.
Ukraine desperately wants those bombs. They remember what it was like living under Russian imperialist rule. They remember that Russia genocided 10% of their population the last time they were conquered.
The government of Ukraine wants those bombs to take control over a territory filled with people they are openly hostile to. The people, like all people, want to live in peace.
Do you really think that this particular bourgeoisie democracy, unlike all the others, represents the people? One that has suspended elections and throws people in prison for “questioning Ukraine’s territorial integrity”?
Every single military action the US has taken since WWII, the US has been acting directly contrary to the interests of the people it claimed to be helping, and every single time the US population gets duped into thinking this time they’re there to help. Why do you think this one is different?
What they’re defending against is being raped, murdered, starved and having their children stolen by Russia. All you Tankies always try to distract from and ignore the suffering and mountain of corpses left in Russia’s wake. You don’t get to ignore the 300 thousand children stolen by Russia or the 5 million killed in the Holodomor.
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You are the one advocating for more human lives to be sacrificed over some nationalist horseshit. Every bomb we send adds more corpses to the pile. I want peace as quickly as possible.
The Holodomor happened years after Russia achieved their so-called “peace”. The suffering and death in Ukraine will only increase under Russian subjugation. The only way to put an end to it is for Russia to lose and preferably Putin be brought in front of the Hague and publicly hanged for his crimes against humanity.
The holodomor happened to the USSR during wide-spread crop failure, it’s kinda irrelevent to modern Russia.
There will be similar amounts of suffering and death under the other bourgeoisie democracy run by a literal billionaire. Either would be far, far better for the people than what they are experiencing now.
Yup, same with Zelensky, Biden, Trump, and most every other leader who could stop this and doesn’t.
No, the only way to put an end to it is peace.
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It’s like saying lobbying to continue the usage of fossil fuel is not supporting oil company.
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Hmm i wonder who started and prolonging the war…
Must be those merican.