Even if you disagree with them, Trotskyists are not tankies, simple Marxists aren’t tankies, leftists curious and exploring different theories aren’t tankies, and ffs anarchists like myself are not tankies.

I feel like “tankie” indicated a very specific worldview at one time, but it’s been used lately a lot to mean things like “doesn’t agree with nations supporting oppression and inequity up to and including genocide” – which is drastically at odds with how I’ve seen the term used in the past, no?

  • GarfGirl [she/her]@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    1 year ago

    I actually got banned from a comm on here just yesterday for pointing out that one of the people who was posting a load of things saying “FUCK TANKIES” had repeatedly admitted that they were a fascist and shouldn’t be trusted. Like I’m a trot, I have no love for stalinists obviously but I think it should be pretty obvious to people at this point that the people constantly yelling about tankies are just using it as an excuse to amputate the entire far left out of political discussions.

    receipts

    The image I posted: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/pictrs/image/d7110acb-ec24-4f8b-9454-955956eb2548.png

    The mod who removed it:

  • darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org
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    1 year ago

    There are almost certainly bad actors (paid trolls) infiltrating leftist spaces, both as extremists and “concerned centrists” attempting to divide, confuse, and disrupt any communities that are developing. I believe one of the big goals is to encourage violence and extremism. They had a lot of success with this among young men and teens, pushing fascist ideology. Now they are trying the same on the left. If not that, then division and confusion will also be satisfactory.

    As for “liberals”, give me a break. There is no liberal invasion. Again it’s trolls. Don’t fall for it.

    Don’t be paranoid, just be aware.

    • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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      1 year ago

      Hmmm I’ve looked at a lot of liberals’ comment histories in the fediverse, and they seem like they’re being genuine. This doesn’t sound right. I think it’s very dangerous to assume everyone is a troll.

      As much as I dislike the liberal shit, I’m not fond of dehumanizing people by assuming they’re all bots, shills, and trolls. I think it’s misconceptions like that which cause the really harmful division.

      • darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org
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        1 year ago

        Why would “liberals” even be here? Are there even any liberals left under the age of 40? What is with this liberal scare stuff? I’m just not seeing it.

        Edit: changed over to under.

        • SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          1 year ago

          Where is “here” in your comment? If it’s Lemmy in general, lemmy.world is packed with liberals thanks to the earlier Reddit diaspora. Now they’re interacting with actual leftists and some are losing their shit over it. I believe that’s what prompted the post.

          • darkphotonstudio@beehaw.org
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            1 year ago

            Ah ok, I use beehaw.org and even though I always switch to “all” posts, I’m probably not seeing all of the relevant discussions. That and lemmy.world is defederated, even so I do lurk on .world. Now I kinda want to see these freakout posts.

            • SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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              1 year ago

              Oh boy, then do I have something for you! One of the more prolific tankie decriers on .world goes by PugJesus. If you check their profile, you’ll be able to find a ton of it.

              • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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                1 year ago

                I wanted to avoid dropping names, but that one user is solely responsible for a big part of the problem on that instance. If you ask them, they’ll claim to be leftist, but they constantly lash out at the left, and every political opinion they espouse is very centrist/liberal

                They’ve straight up called me a fascist because I said I disagree with the incarceration and deportation of Latin-American immigrants, no matter how popular the idea is that we should persecute them. I don’t bother to comment much on .world anymore because every thread is a cesspit of toxicity.

                • archomrade [he/him]@midwest.social
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                  1 year ago

                  PJ is one of those liberals who’ll say they support leftist policy personally but it’s just not popular among ‘most people’ so we shouldn’t act on them.

  • Ranger@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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    I get what you’re saying but Lenin & Trotsky(and those who come after) didn’t exactly have ‘clean hands’ and if MLs/trotskyist acknowledge this it begs the question what reforms to their ideology do they think would prevent these horrors?

    • LinkOpensChest.wav@lemmy.blahaj.zoneOPM
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      On that note, as an anarchist I don’t have the answers to some of the potential pitfalls of abolishing states, and I think it’s a mistake to demand instant answers to these questions. An important lesson I’ve learned is it’s ok and good to admit we don’t have answers to everything, while still being able to recognize the harm and inequity inherent to market capitalism.

      There are Trotskyists in this community, and perhaps someday they’ll make a post, but I’m not going to demand it from them since this is sorta supposed to be a respite from such things.

      • flying_sheep@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        I always say that capitalism is treated as a default, and its failings as “facts of life”. Judging socialism or anarchism by their few short, sabotaged instances without giving people a few hundred years to refine i the systems isn’t a fair comparison.

  • Dogyote@slrpnk.net
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    Why is there a red-scare on Lemmy? I’m admittedly a bit of a suspicious person, but the concern about .ml and the suggestion to defederate seems manufactured. I struggle to believe a bunch of “liberals” on .world are so butthurt by the meanies on .ml that they need to censor them completely. It just seems astroturfed.

    • I’ve most recently seen a .ml praising the Taliban in an lgbtq+ community. They’re not good people (or their instance draws, tolerates, and encourages those kinds of people). I don’t really want that sort of crap spilling into other instances. Alas, programming.dev has not defederated from them. When instances do defederate from them, it’s not censorship, it’s just not pulling data from their communities or users. Users are welcome to make an account on .ml if they want to see the things on there. Do you understand the difference? If not, I can explain it a little more with some better examples if you let me know the sticking points.

      • SoleInvictus@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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        1 year ago

        I’ve seen the most trolls, fascists, and even some Nazis (although I think they were really just trolls) come out of .world. Should we defederate from them too? If not, what’s the difference?

        • If their moderation can’t keep up with it and they become a Nazi bar, then yeah. For me, I have consistent experiences with .ml users in that the vocal ones support oppression of minorities up to and including atrocities, deny historical atrocities in a manner similar to antivaxers/flat earthers/etc, and generally smell like a creepy cult. If those are the users getting noticed, those are the representatives. If their mods condone that, then I don’t think the problem is solvable on a per user level.

      • Dogyote@slrpnk.net
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        1 year ago

        Do you understand the difference?

        Yes, but you don’t. You’re promoting cutting off an entire group of viewpoints all on the flimsy justification that there are some shitty people and trolls on .ml (just block the bad users on your own ffs).

        Defederating will create echo chambers across the fediverse where dissenting voices aren’t heard by people who really need to consider a contrary opinion. That’s censorship. Sure technically each individual user could go make a new account wherever they please, but that’s an extra step and it’s easier to police any dissent that trickles in. Don’t tell me that’s not censorship, I’m not stupid.

        It’s nice the fediverse doesn’t have centralized control, (otherwise the tankies that built it would have banned everyone), but this place will ultimately produce nothing useful for society since it’s devolving into isolated echochambers where people go to get intellectually jerked off when they feel sorry for themselves.

        • First, the “some shitty people” thing comes off the same as “not all men” to me. It’s enough that it’s noticeable.

          Next, censorship:

          https://xkcd.com/1357/

          It’s not censorship. (And being wrong isn’t the same thing as being stupid.) You can shout all you want, but people don’t have to listen to you or amplify your message.

          Other people’s servers, communities, etc., aren’t automatically yours to do with whatever you want. You’re a guest of their hardware, knowledge, and labor. Their instance might serve a purpose that’s not providing you with a platform to give people an opinion “they really need to hear” or producing something of value to society, whatever that means. You don’t get to decide that. And that’s the beauty of federation.

          Anyway, I’m done with this so I’m going to block an individual user as you suggested, so take the time you would have used to write a response and really think about what I’ve said. Take some time to develop some empathy and be able to see things from viewpoints that aren’t your own (maybe you’re the one in an echo chamber that needs to consider new opinions). Or don’t, I’m not your mother.