- cross-posted to:
- antifascism@midwest.social
- cross-posted to:
- antifascism@midwest.social
Cross-posted from “Nina going off today” by @seahorse@midwest.social in !antifascism@midwest.social
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You guys first. Show us how it’s done.
Leftists have done many revolutions all around the world. Can’t say the same for liberals.
I see what you’re trying to say, but the French and American revolutions were both explicitly liberal.
So, events that didnt actually give us anything good, except the guillotine?
I’m just saying they were successful liberal revolutions.
Successful in what sense?
Displacing the previous government with a different one. What other sense is there?
So, coups are a category of revolution?
You’ve picked perhaps the worst outcome of the French revolution – save Napoleon. Burn the guillotine, like the Commune did.
Oh damn, i guess libs didnt give us anything worth having, then.
First of all, I’d like to recommend you this article: https://crimethinc.com/2019/04/08/against-the-logic-of-the-guillotine-why-the-paris-commune-burned-the-guillotine-and-we-should-too
Second of all: it’s hard to imagine the intellectual development that led to socialism and anarchism, without the French revolution. Of course, it’s a counterfactual scenario to imagine history without the French revolution – but still, things happened the way they did.
Edit: French revolutionaries liberated women and banned slavery – until the counter revolution.
Anarchism has always existed. It’s kind of the default for hunter gatherers. We would probably have different popular flavors.
That’s a very very simplified view of how they resolved slavery and gender issues in the french revolution. They wobbled, slipped forward, slipped back. And with the long communication times to colonies it got weird.
Im aware of the problems with the guillotine and the entire hot mess the first french revolution, where people with barely any concept of what freedom even is suddenly had the reins of power and fucked up basically everything, because how could they not, even if they did trust each other (they didn’t) but the thing they were pushing out was such a shit show the fuckups barely counted and they racked up an impressive string of wins.
Things did in fact happen the way they did.
Remember who slaughtered many thousands of civilians at the Paris Commune.
I didn’t know, so I had to look. That’s a bit of a rabbit hole, but it looks like the answer is Patrice de MacMahon, or maybe Adolphe Theirs.
If you’re talking more in abstractly in the sense of political ideology, it’s kinda tough to say. The government was less than a year old, fresh out of the imperial monarchy of Napoleon III, recovering from their losses to Prussia.
MacMahon was Napoleon III’s Marshal, it’s not a stretch to imagine he may have harbored imperialist sentiments.
Thiers was certainly more liberal, which only goes to reinforce my point that liberals aren’t inherently bad at revolutions. He was in the middle of his own revolution (again) and dissolved the Commune’s revolution in a month’s time.
You’d be right to take issue with the Bloody Week for other reasons, but you can’t say it supports the idea that liberals can’t do revolutions.
Lately people are starting to come around to ways social media makes people sick, and understanding consequences of the information age; from my experience the first casualty of this was not our attention spans, but our will to resist. Apparently just telling people your opinions on things anonymously gratifies your ego just enough without having to sign a petition, or stand outside in a line. “I’m so passionate about this subject I spend every waking moment talking about it online.; uh yeah I can’t make it to the protest sorry, It’s like a 30 minute drive and I have work in the morning.”
To be fair i do actually have work in the morning.
I hate being that cringe guy in the comments posting FD quotes, but this one is such a banger
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Find out just what any people will quietly submit to and you have found out the exact measure of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them, and these will continue till they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress
Does anyone think that Donnie is going to be sad if someone burns a truck? Or a Home Depot? Or an ICE officer?
Don’t follow the provocateurs in pointless vandalism. Protest, and save the rocks to throw at the people who are directly responsible for this blatant fascism.
Educate me. I mean this with no hostility, and I’ll be honest about the fact that I’m not an American and am seeing this from the outside. I’m not attacking anyone and I’m not defending any one stance, because I’d like to be educated and I’m not confident my news is giving me the whole picture.
Educate me.
Here’s what I hear.
- American troops (including marines) have been deployed without the governor’s consent (this sounds terrifying)
- This has been temporarily suspended because it was a hasty move and requires the governor’s consent
- If this turns violent then it can be considered an insurrection (or meet whatever terms required to be considered) and the insurrection act can be invoked (this sounds terrifying) (why would you encourage violence in this circumstance?)
- I get how pacifism can be the wrong move in some circumstances, but this post sounds like it came from people wanting to stir the pot. And that’s exactly what Trump would want, right?
Please spell it out for the rest of us. And how can I help?
Isn’t this exactly what Trump would want? I may be missing the point here, and as an ally I don’t mean to take anyone’s energy away from far more important efforts.
Please educate me (if you can). Please fight for your rights!
Not OP but for your second bullet, the idea is that we’re getting the insurrection act or martial law pretty much no matter what because trump wants it and is looking for any excuse.
So, if it’s going to happen anyway, why not do it on our terms?
That’s a pretty important point, I think, thank-you.
- If Trump can enact the insurrection act if there’s violence… then he will encourage violence
- I’m worried that outside actors would easily decide to do this, and this shouldn’t be a decision made by non-americans.
- I deeply hope that the united states maintains its presence (it is a beacon)
No it’s not a beacon, its cancer, a blight, spreading itself like a corruptuous disease on this world. It can’t die soon enough since for many millions it is already too late.
Death to Seppoland, the Occupation Regime of West Palestine and Genocidesmany
Sometimes a beacon is dim. A beacon doesn’t need to be perfect to do it’s job. I hear you
Please readsettlers.org
Im reading it now, thank you.
This is a very scary place to be in. Do whatever you can to keep everyone around you as safe as you can. I can’t offer anything but my hope that things will get better, I’m sorry, because that means next to nothing.
I’m watching, and the rest of the world is watching. What’s happening is not right.
When people are having members of their community kidnapped at graduation ceremonies, hearing stories of secret police trying to enter elementary schools to abduct 1st graders, that affects you. Masked agents of the state who hide their identities are routinely disappearing people, and when communities respond to protect each other from abduction, or protest these monstrous actions, the police show up to disperse them so the kidnappers can do what they came to do. They routinely attack people unprovoked.
If you have never been to a protest where the cops decided to escalate, you cannot know how crystal clear the barbarity becomes. These cops have been pelting peaceful people with pepper balls, tear gas, concussion grenades, and baton rounds. According to a study, those “less lethal” rubber rounds permanently injure ~15% of the people hit by them. 3% are killed, eventually dying to injuries sustained.
Here’s a video of someone being shot with one point blank for asking an officer to identify himself, who refuses to do so. Here’s a police horse being used to trample a man that is already subdued and surrounded.
The other thing to understand is that while the outrageously ghoulish shit ICE and other state bodies have been getting up to, this situation with the police has been the status quo for a very long time. The same forces have been doing this shit to virtually every form of protest for ages. These are the same people that are responsible for the highest incarceration rate in the world, with a for-profit prison industry, and contracts to exploit incarcerated labour.
The point I’m trying to make here is that the situation is already incredibly violent, that violence has just been normalized, and people are literally trying to protect their neighbors from being kidnapped by the state. Communities have been experiencing relentless institutional and systemic oppression for generations. Appealing to the conscience of people brutalizing and kidnapping targeted groups on behalf of the state is a fool’s errand, they clearly have none.
Asking people to remain completely peaceful is to ask them to sit back and watch their neighbors disappear. It’s to ask them to passively watch as more people get subjected to greater levels of violence, to show up and be beaten themselves for daring to resist the expansion of fascism. Burnt Waymos and shattered glass can be replaced, rebuilt. Objects are not people, and it’s overwhelmingly cops that have been damaging people.
I am not advocating for violence, but I think every person understands the innate urge to rebel against oppression. Whatever shape that takes, people that are not putting their bodies on the line do not get to tell those that are what to do.
There are also people who have no choice in the matter, their bodies are on the line either way because state agents have orders to take control of them in some way or other. Before you think to tell people what they should or should not do, take a moment to ask yourself how it would sound if it was you and yours in that position.
Beyond that, expecting that years of passivity will somehow pay off is absurd. If it worked, the situation would be getting better over time, not worse. This regime is going to escalate no matter what, it’s already deporting dissidents and shipping innocent people off to foreign concentration camps. They’re already actively trying to revoke citizenship from all sorts, unilaterally criminalizing completely law-abiding people overnight.
We know where this road leads. Whatever actions people take to shut it down, history will be on their side.
My concern is that someone could bait violence too easily. Maybe this is not a conversation I can can be helpful in. I hope you all are safe! I hope you all take action to help you and others around you remain safe or find safety.
- American troops (including marines) have been deployed without the governor’s consent (this sounds terrifying)
God I love Nina, happy to see others are aware of her style.
she just don’t miss.
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Peaceful protest or “sitting it out” is when you have hope to last longer than the current crisis.
The current crisis, at least in the US, is not going to vanish that quickly. The real crisis is the dropping wages, and that’s not gonna revert much. Socialism or barbarism!
The moment the inconvenience of jail or ending up dying during an insurrection is better than the actual situation, shit is gonna spiral. People will riot violently, government is gonna fuck with the lives of folks who didn’t, more will join, more will get fucked, and repeat until Donnie is no more.
The moment the inconvenience of jail or ending up dying during an insurrection is better than the actual situation, shit is gonna spiral.
That is a sentiment that i kinda hear many people say these days …
There’s a much better reason to not be violent: So that you can get more people onto the streets. Figures that most people don’t fancy dodging burning trash cans and you want everybody on the streets, not just your polycule. People need to feel like they’re safe at the protest, the only danger there is is coming from the state.
I know, right? These fuvking anachronistic world war mashup re-enacters, fucking tear gassing and shooting random people as they get so mean towards the cops!
That’s a nice argument when the cops are not yet shooting random passerbys with rubber bullets and teargas. People don’t stay home because they’re afraid of other protestors.
There’s a massive fucking vibe difference between a crowd taking cover behind whatever is at hand and one setting fire to shit and throwing back stones is all I’m saying. Be the former vibe. Stones aren’t going to stop them. Assault rifles and tanks wouldn’t stop them. Pining for escalation hands them excuses on a platter for no strategic gain whatsoever, it’s pissing in the wind. The only law you should be breaking is refusing to follow a dispersal order, or at least take your sweet time with it, everything else is fedposting.
The only law you should be breaking is refusing to follow a dispersal order
And that’s the one they point to as an excuse to start shooting, you shitlib.
They don’t need an excuse. They will escalate it long before anyone in the street does. It’s also wild to me that ‘throwing stones’ is somehow seen as more violent than literal fucking munitions and chemical weapons. “Just stand there and let them shoot at you” is quite a take from someone who has clearly never been shot at by fascists in riot gear.
If this were an ordinary liberal riot guard we might be able to count on deescalation, but as libs have so been eager to point out when votemaxxing online, this isn’t an ordinary liberal riot guard. Either bend over and spread for the next phase of american fascist policing or shut the fuck up about how people are choosing to resist it. Communities are fighting against unaccountable and un-identifiable gestapo pigs blackbagging innocent children - don’t concern troll us about deescalation.
They don’t need an excuse.
To shoot? No. To justify themselves in the media, in the public eye? Yes.
It’s also wild to me that ‘throwing stones’ is somehow seen as more violent than literal fucking munitions and chemical weapons.
It’s not. That’s as much a shitlib take as “police violence isn’t violence because it’s state violence”.
But it’s the perception that exists among the population, you’re not going to change it by throwing stones.
Communities are fighting against unaccountable and un-identifiable gestapo pigs blackbagging innocent children
You know what people did to protect Jews from the Gestapo? Hide them. You can’t protect them by throwing stones for the simple reason that police dgaf when they’re hit by stones, they’ll just blackbag you alongside.
Look there’s exactly one thing I’m saying here: Act strategically. I’m not arguing against violence because it’s evil – at most, violence is unaesthetic. I’m arguing against it because, unless you start an actual insurrection with plans to take on and take out the military, it’s ineffective. Just because your pigs are worse than what we’re dealing with over here doesn’t mean that lashing out at them suddenly becomes good praxis. You’re there to have an effect, not to blow off steam.
To justify themselves in the media, in the public eye? Yes.
No they don’t. Just look at how often they use footage from completely unrelated events in their coverage. Anyone with even a slight predilection against protestors or a law enforcement bias will accept any willful misrepresentation as ‘aesthetic’ and condemn the whole group regardless.
But it’s the perception that exists among the population, you’re not going to change it by throwing stones.
Nothing the protestors actually do will move the needle - it’s the extreme overreaction of the fed that will.
You know what people did to protect Jews from the Gestapo? Hide them.
Only after the Nazis had actually banned extra-party protests and clamped down on all opposition, and only after they had already carted away several million jews and political opponents off to concentration camps. You want to wait that long do something? Be my guest.
I’m arguing against it because, unless you start an actual insurrection with plans to take on and take out the military, it’s ineffective.
The goal of most rebellions isn’t to take control of the reigns of power - the goal is to make it so costly to suppress that the state is forced to cut their loss, or else risk the resistance spreading. There is no version of resisting a fascist movement in the US that involves armed militias overpowering federal forces. Liberals are desperate to maintain the illusion of democracy by simply resisting at the fringes - if they don’t piss Trump off too much, then maybe there will still be enough democracy left for them to vote him away without any real conflict! What a wonderful fantasy that is.
Liberals need to pick a lane - either trump is a dictator who must be removed before he solidifies his hold on power, or we need to conduct ourselves until the midterms so that we can vote our way out. It can’t be both.
You want to wait that long do something? Be my guest.
Who said anything about waiting? Stop posting and organise that shit. Don’t look at me I’m on the other side of the Atlantic.
Nothing the protestors actually do will move the needle - it’s the extreme overreaction of the fed that will.
Please look up opinion polling after the Kent State Massacre: It took years for public opinion to shift away from “the National Guard did nothing wrong”. For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious – like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that’s a good video. Things don’t become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.
Liberals need to pick a lane - either trump is a dictator who must be removed before he solidifies his hold on power, or we need to conduct ourselves until the midterms so that we can vote our way out.
I wouldn’t argue for either. Both are unrealistic for various reasons and the latter isn’t a good in itself. What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that’s best done on a level of state and lower administrations. California isn’t cooperating with ICE so make sure to have the state’s back. Yes, I, an anarchist is saying “have the state’s back”, fascism is too large a threat to risk over feelings of disgust regarding liberal democracy. Last thing you want is the Governor seeing himself in a situation where he has to ask the feds to intervene to keep (a semblance of) order instead of being able to say “fuck off feds we got this”.
Stop posting and organise that shit.
Most of us do both.
For what you say to occur the overreaction has to not just be extreme, it also has to be obvious – like the Aussie journalist which got shot, that’s a good video.
Yup, and with any luck Trump will continue with the lack of subtlety.
Things don’t become more obviously an overreaction when cars are burning and shopfronts are deglassed.
Those things happen every day in the US. Hell, some sports fans will flip cars after a moderately good football game. Corporatized media will find footage of those things regardless of what the actual protestors are doing, and implicate them with it. Even when counterprotestors are actually assaulting peaceful protestors, Fox news and their many subsidiary channels will find the one shot with an angry exchange that paints the picture and use it to implicate the entire movement. And when they do, liberals will be right there to wag their fingers.
The good news is that Trump is such a dipshit that he’ll send in fucking tanks for just about any goddamned reason, and those are really fucking hard to hide and even harder to justify with a few broken windows and lots of unarmed protestors.
What you want to do is obstruct the fuck out the feds so they fall on their face, that’s best done on a level of state and lower administrations
Yea, this is what i’m referring to by saying ‘middling around the fringes’. There is no amount of legalese that will slow down an actual authoritarian. You can’t run around screaming that he’s going to fucking end democracy and then strategize on how to bury him in legal threats. Either he’s a dictator or he can be obstructed by judicial paperwork. You can’t have a dictator that politely complies with the judiciary, that’s what makes them a dictator.
This is how liberals end up collaborating with fascists: they are so uncomfortable with extralegal resistance that they delude themselves into a belief that working within the structures that are actively being dismantled is the ‘only realistic way’ to resist against it. What happens when we get to the ‘outlawing of rival political parties’ part of fascism? We’ve already crossed over the ‘no due process for criminals’ line, how many more core democratic foundations do we have to lose before it’s game over?
Not everyone can or should be in black bloc sabotaging ICE vehicles, but pretending as if the usual checks and balances are still functioning is willful ignorance.
They’re already shooting.
I actually did. I’ve got an ex girlfriend i really don’t want to run into.
Edit: look, if i remind her i exist she might mention how bad i am in bed, and then id make it into some history books. No thank you.
I hope you’re not sincerely avoiding protests because of an ex. I can’t laugh about exes and bad sex when I live in fear every day that ICE might snatch my partner off the street.
It’s not a bad joke on its own, it’s just in poor taste considering the state of things. The fear of Trump’s dictatorship far outweighs the fear of running into even my most abusive ex.
in poor taste
So, whether or not this is a bit¹: the potential harm from edgy jokes is the same as the harm from dystopian fiction warning us about bad things that could happen. The potential for harm is that dipshits with zero self awareness and less media literacy will just blindly copy the thing. Like how siliconbvalley billionaires have tried to do almost literally every part of ‘snow crash’.
If my character in the bit is shitty and not someone you would want to be at any point, or I’m on a server defederated from beehaw and world; this danger is mitigated.
And for those who have actually been through shit, your criticism here comes off as privileged, colonizing, and completely misunderstanding what humor is, because you’ve never had a use for it. It comes off as ‘if i laugh at myself i am lesser, because the only way i know how to laugh is by sorting groups and affirming my group’s position at the top’. And thats a really bad fucking look. Im not saying shut up; im saying read up on the topic.
¹just for you; I’m never gonna tell now.
That’s what you take away here? That I’m some privileged, humorless bigot that’s never “been through shit”?
You gathered that from one comment. I guess all the 900-ish comments I’ve made here on Lemmy, many of which discuss my experiences with “shit” like disabilities, homelessness, and sexism just don’t factor in. I make no secret of my struggles, past and present, and I genuinely fear my partner getting kidnapped and tortured in El Salvador. I was born with some kinds of targets already on my back, but under this administration, my partner’s targets shine brighter than mine.
Of course, I didn’t expect you to know any of that, in the same way I wouldn’t expect you to know much of anything about a stranger after one interaction with them.
But it doesn’t matter, as I can see I’m onboard the Lemmy Downvote train. So choo-choo, motherfuckers.
People usually only remember part of Thomas Jefferson’s quote: “The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of tyrants.”
The full thing goes “The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of patriots and tyrants.”
This is class warfare. We all need to start getting used to the fact that many of us patriots are going to die fighting this fascist machine.
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Finally, an accurate use for the term “shitlib”
It has to get worse before it can get better. Violate.
Feel like they’re ignoring the fact that these massive protests are a sign of contention and the point is to not devolve into complete violence. We do need to make it harder for him to convince others that we are not unruly people, but people protesting actual grievances.
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No badjacketing
The Russian government is a fascist one. Putin is a fascist dictator. This poster is most probably a leftist. You are not a leftist.
4·7 个月前God forbid a woman kills a few fascists.
Fucking extremely this.
