The analogy makes a lot of sense to me. Once you have an “easy button”, it’s hard to not use it. It’s sort of like when you’re at work and see the “quick workaround” effectively become the standard process.
I remember burning out on games because the cheats made them really fun in the short term, but afterward playing normally felt like agony.
I’ve recently been obsessed with a streamer called AboutOliver. He played Minecraft for the first time about a year and a half ago, played his entire first season with no wiki or external knowledge, got a little tour of the community server (which he 99% forgot at the time Season 2 rolled around) and is now on Episode 75-ish of season 2. Still no wiki, no guides. He has figured out some crazy things about the game (which I won’t spoil), but is also completely clueless about some super basic features.
It’s been incredibly inspiring to just watch him figure things out, because he is exceptionally inquisitive and methodical by default (I think he’s a phd candidate in Astrophysics irl?). Made me realize the point of a game shouldn’t be to produce the optimal output, but that struggling and finding things out is exactly the point. Incidentally, that mindset also noticeably boosted my performance at work because I’m now one of the few people who will happily continue to tackle a programming problem over and over again, even if there are no helpful guides on it.
Long story short, here’s a link to watch the supercut of Olivers Season 1 Playthrough: https://youtu.be/ljemxyWvg8E
The total season 1 supercut is about 6 hours iircOR, if you are insane, here’s the link to the full-episode playlist: https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL68V5Cxs_CvTpTY9o7KJ75nLPqlCRxze0
It’s 50 Episodes á 3-5h, great as background noise when doing something else.Well…
But considering in modern Minecraft you already have a crafting book that says how to craft any item it’s not as needed anymore as before.
In the early times I believe it was to either know the recipe or to look iz up on the web.
Im playing a bunch of soulslikes for the first time now. You gotta exhaust everything you can think of, then check a walkthrough just for the hint youre missing.
The process is the fun part. Looking it up is just a way to minimize frustration because you can’t find the goddamn ladder.
In other words im with you
I dunno, I feel like I wouldn’t use a walkthrough on souls like games until the second play through. Part of the fun is the discovery, and its fine if you miss shit the first time.
I just mean when youre banging your head against the wall and need a hint where to go. I do this less and less now though, I’ve still only beaten one of them.
I agree and don’t typically worry so much about getting 100% in games, if i miss something that’s on me and fine.
I think souls likes are just not for me. I just want a cool story told in a relatively linear fashion. I’d take a linear 15 hour game over an open world 150+ hour game any day.
Most of em are pretty linear, really. Elden Ring is the exception. But like Bloodborne for instance, youre gonna go pretty much in the same order till you have to return to earlier areas to finish stuff. You’ve gotta explore a lot though.
Not trying to be like “LOVE THE THING THAT I LOVE DAMN YOU”, theyre totally not for everyone.
I also don’t wanna grind/retry a boss 500 times just to hear ‘git gud scrub’
Just cheese them tbh.
What’s the fun in that?
Fun is subjective. Cheese is coded, cheese is allowed to be fun.
I guess I just enjoy the difficulty of the boss fights in those games, so cheesing them feels like I’m robbing myself.
My personal integrity wouldnt allow that.
It would have to be very frustrating for me to resort that.Things I’d cheese for example in pokemon: Event locked pokemon.
Only the most braindead of gamers has a chance of bouncing off a single Souls fight more than maybe a dozen times. Two dozen if you’re especially thickheaded.
The thing about Soulslikes - and Fromsoft games in particular - is that they teach you new things primarily by killing you with them. Once you know whatever the thing is that this encounter is trying to teach you, you can blow through the entire thing at level 1 and people do it all the time. And I do mean “people” and not just professional streamers. SL1 is a popular challenge run for souls fans, specifically because once you know all the rules of the game it becomes very easy.
But there is no easing-in to learning new things in Dark Souls. You will get flattened into paste by some bullshit without warning, and it is up to the player to figure out a) why they died, and b) how to prevent that. Throwing yourself at the same brick wall 200 times with no change in strategy is a losing prospect no matter what game you’re playing, souls or otherwise.
The essence of “gitting gud” is literally just stopping for 10 seconds to think about why you failed last time. If you’re capable of that - and 99% of gamers definitely are, it’s a core component of game design - you’re capable of not only completing but excelling in Soulslikes.
People have been jerking off how difficult Souls games are for a decade and a half now and it’s never been true. Souls games are just rhythm games that don’t give you the rhythm onscreen. Find that rhythm (through observing patterns, and especially through listening to the boss fight music) and you’ll first-clear every single fight.
I’ve bounced off some fights way more than that. It’s not even about not getting what to do, my concentration just dies and I also get greedy (or in the case of margit in elden ring was insanely underleveled on top of that). Playing claire obscure on the highest difficulty while ignoring defense isn’t very different in terms of dodging difficulty, but since I couldn’t really get greedy and my brain can go off on a journey on my own turn it was pretty smooth and much less frustrating for me.
I do agree souls games aren’t super difficult, but they are unforgiving and if concentration isn’t your strong suit that will fuck you relentlessly. I still enjoy them personally though I’ve never completed one, there’s always some area that just annoys me too much to bother after a bit.
Oh yeah that boss music tip made a world of difference with Bloodborne. Once someone pointed it out on a flame-themed hunter boss that was giving me pause, i was amazed. Like, how the hell does that work so well??
I made it all the way through Dark Souls 1 and 2 and about half of 3 before I even knew that was a thing. I was getting curbstomped by Dancer of the Boreal Valley and went online looking for discussions about her. Lo and behold:
this video is a re-upload because it looks like the original was removed
Tl;dw - Dancer’s song is in 3/4 time instead of 4/4 and she dances with her music. This gives her a crazy pattern that people always get got by because what feels like an opening actually isn’t. In order to defeat her you have to listen to her song and learn to dance with her.
Once I learned that it opened up an entire new world of understanding across every soulslike game I played and immediately halved my average number of boss attempts. No joke. Not every boss can be beaten blindfolded by just listening to their OST but it’ll give you good timing cues for the fight more often than it doesn’t.
That was a fun watch, thanks!
Yeah this is absolutely true start to finish. Once you slow down and stop spamming buttons, and think, it becomes really surprisingly easy. Mostly. Some bosses are just gonna ruin your day for a bit. Till you figure out what youre doing wrong and adjust. Sometimes easier said than done.
Then, by the time you’ve finished like a single run of any game, youre totally ready to crush the entire genre catalog. You’ve got months of dungeons to explore if you want.
Sigh. Im so grateful for these games lol. Theres so much love and creativity in their DNA.
Interesting take.
Thing is I do enough of problem solving already so this just isnt my jam.
And if you like that genre/game series I wish you the best to getting more :)I was like you until I played Sekiro. That’s the one that made it “click” for me. Also very linear.
However, the combat and traversal are much different (better imo) than other From Software games.
How playable is it on controller (steam deck)?
That’s fair.
I’m sorry, I just can’t stop myself from launching into this spiel every time I hear a comment like your first one. There’s a huge swath of gamers that I feel like would actually love my favorite game if they weren’t scared away from it by gamer circlejerk. It’s not my mission in life to defend Dark Souls to people who don’t care about it, but I often assume that mantle despite myself.
At the end of the day though it’s just a game about self reflection and personal growth, and I like that.
I unironically think that The Witcher 2 is the best game in the trilogy for this exact reason.
Soulslikes are great if you’re looking to scratch an itch for mechanical mastery, discovery, exploration, etc., but stories are not their strong suit. I’m not saying the stories are bad, just the delivery of them, unless you’re the type of player who wants to play detective.
First few games were delightful to me precisely because they didn’t beat you over the head with a story. It’s up to you the player to make your own meaning of the understated story.
That’s not just Souls-likes though. And only Elden Ring is really open world in that way (I think, haven’t played much of any of them). What you’re meaning is that open world games aren’t for you, which is a lot more games than just Souls-likes.
I generally love open-world games, but really don’t like any of the Souls or Souls-like games. The whole thing of always being so focused on the enemy, having to time dodges and parries just isn’t how my brain works, and I lose interest and/or give up very quickly. I have no issue with hard games, but I feel a lot of people who love those kinds of games have some kind of masochistic trait that makes them keep exposing themselves to the shit those games drag you through. I don’t get super happy or feel like I’ve overcome something big with these kinds of challenges, it’s just “fucking fuck, it’s finally dead, I feel like shit and have used up all my consumables, that was not fun in any way. I need to go do something else because I almost had a panic attack from all this crap”. The story just ends up not mattering because there’s always this burden of forcing yourself to get past every millimetre of the game. I love really hard puzzles though, and stuff like platforming and so on, almost anything except that very Souls-specific soul crushing style.
Something something sense of pride and accomplishment
We were so bored back in the day we spent hours, days, months finding out how to get by stupid things in point&click games, it was better than not playing them but it was also not like the best time ever either.
I don’t know if we “got smarter” by it really.
As a horny teen, Leisure Suit Larry was the closest thing to smut in a game that I could get. There was no internet walkthroughs. You wanted pixelated boobs and innuendo? You had to try every item in your arsenal and every dialogue choice to get it. But damn was it fun!
Later, going back to the games and using walkthroughs, some of the solutions seemed rather silly.
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It makes sense for me too, and i like your cheat code version of it. I think it’s also akin to the tutorial hell for devs and artists.
Me and Dk 64 but that game had so many little secrets that I got annoyed with trying to find them all. 😒
I hereby retroactively grant you a permission for committing the following action:
- Searching for secrets in a video game with an exceptionally large heaplet of secrets and then, after having shown general skill and interest in committing to said action, seeking appropriate help for completing your task, including in the form of perusing a walkthrough.
I commend you for your engangement in achieving the best possible result in the process of donkeying the kong.
To be fair, I needed some serious help in RCT. The under the hood mechanics were NOT intuitive to me.
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I haven’t played rtc in 20 yrs, but I remember completing every park task except for dinky Park. I got really close one time, but was just short when the time ran out. Just a few months ago I randomly came across a video on how to beat it, and now I want to play it again but can’t find it.
Mods. Mod the games you want to beat. Then you get a smooth experience without looking shit up.
Console is a Google search, though.
At first I was going to disagree and say “hey at least they are still looking up information, unlike most people” but then I did a 540° on that idea when I realized that I myself was a great example of how the OP is right.
I have been building things in my back yard like crazy this summer. I am currently working on a purpose-built little lego/craft tray for my wife to use in the house. I have gotten to plan out every detail in my head and sketching on paper, including convenient geometry knowledge like multiplying by the square root of 2 to find lengths for 45° supports or the good old 3-4-5 triangle for getting a right angle in a pinch. I have been able to discuss the table’s use with my wife to figure out the perfect features. It will be a little wooden table that’s ~2’/60cm wide like a TV tray but it will be held up by cantilever legs that are long enough and tall enough to hover the table over her lap with the footrest up. And it will have other features like little segmented bins for pieces/parts, and an instruction holder.
It’s a great activity for numerous reasons. It gets me outside, it gets me physical, it gets me interacting with my wife and excited to give her the finished product, it gives me opportunities to practice new skills/tools, and it engages the senses as well as the mind while I spend hours in a calm almost meditative state and not seeing anything that’s happening on my phone (though it will read texts to me through my earbuds).
It’s a pretty funny look. I’m wearing a big round brimmed sun/fishing hat that looks almost like Gandalf’s but without the pointy top. From the outside the sound of the scene is 95% the sound of falling water and birds chirping, interrupted by the 5% of the time spent actively cutting or planing some wood. But if my earbuds are in my ears, they are blasting my playlist of various high-tempo Thrash and Industrial Metal songs! (at 45-50% volume. I’m responsible here, lol)
So if I take all that and compare it to some schmuck who pulls up ChatGPT and types something like “design me a sturdy two foot wide table, create a list of the pieces I need and the cuts to make them, and generate detailed assembly instructions with pictures.” Yeah you might still get a functional table but your life has missed out on the vast majority of the potential benefit of the activity!
This is the way I started looking at these tasks once I really internalized the whole “life is about the journey, not the destination” thing.
I need chat gpt to summarise this post
I read the whole thing, it’s basically “sometimes the journey is the reward.”
A bit long winded but correct.
This summary is approved by the completely normal human author.
I’d love to see a picture of the tray once you’re done with it!
sure thing!
busy weekend for us but there’s no way I don’t finish it tomorrow. (right?)
The stuff I’m making right now is all just pine, with flat surfaces and 90 degree corners like you might get from ikea. But with visible wood grain and built so that you can dance on it or use it to hold the biggest aquarium you can find.
Weird, I love problem solving. Its why im so upset with people complaining about computers when all they have to do is tinker with them or google about it. Walkthroughs are for when you need it, if you have an urge to use the walkthrough only instead of actually playing the game, then thats a you problem.
I mean, I guess, it was their realization that the walkthrough skips the fun problem-solving part. That it shouldn’t be a tool you use during the problem-solving.
I had a rule where I wasnt allowed to use a gameshark until I had already beaten the story mode.
So I guess the analogy there would be learn how to do the thing the old fashioned way and then only use AI as a tool to do it better.
I’ve had a similar train of thought. I work with a lot of people that have been doing their jobs for many years and know what they’re doing. They might benefit from an LLM since they already have the expertise to tell what to take or leave. A novice would benefit more long term from learning the hard way.
Continuing with that train of thought though, if someone has been learning and growing for years, is there really a point where it’s okay to stop, say “I don’t need to learn more,” and start relying on the easy method while their skills stagnate?
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Yeah… I’ve made comments before online about how walkthroughs/guides etc tend to ruin games. The response from left leaning folks was a ton of downvotes, largely with comments about how I was an asshole who wasn’t thinking about people with this or that disability that need that sort of guide.
I’m amazed you seem to be getting support for the sentiment. Just shows how much some groups hate AI I guess.
BRO this is literally normal life now. No one wants to figure anything out. Its why I hate llms. Breeds laziness like never before
Man, I was recently working with another senior. The guy has been in this job like ten years longer than me. And to be fair, we were working with a language that he isn’t familiar with, but I had a problem which wasn’t language-specific (basically, I had a user-provided timestamp and needed to guesstimate whether that’s winter or summer time).
And yeah, his first thought was to ask ChatGPT. On some level, it is a wrapper around Bing and I did a web search, too, so sure, let’s do another web search in case I missed anything.
But ol’ Chappity G spat out the same solution attempt, which I had also found initially, which wasn’t actually applicable there. So, we told it what the problem with that was, and it generated another attempt, which didn’t cover edge cases. The next time around, it generated a solution which used an entirely different time library. And so on.
The guy was absorbed for ten minutes trying to explain to the Magic 8 Ball what our problem was precisely and why its solution attempts were bad.
I’m not saying ChatGPT should’ve been able to solve this problem. Date/time handling is one of the hardest computer science problems.
It was more just that he was constantly pulling the slot machine, hoping it would suddenly spit out the perfect solution, when even just five seconds of independent thinking should’ve made him realize that there is no easily web-searchable solution and the spicy autocomplete cannot do the reasoning to come up with a solution of its own.
Beneath A Steel Sky has a help system now you can refer to, and I ended up using it a fair bit. The solutions often just pissed me off though, as they rely on you remembering a one-off bit of dialogue you saw (or skipped) days ago in real time. or were just nonsense.
When I walk around the floor at work now I often see other devs on their phones while they wait for the AI to do stuff. People are getting disengaged are forgetting skills already - this is unsustainable.
This is exactly it. I definitely used a lot of walkthroughs as a kid. I also feel like games in the 90s and early 00s were just plain harder, or sometimes poorly designed.
These days I only look something up when I have got to a point of near rage over how much of my limited gaming time has been wasted, and I need to know if I am just a moron, or if it’s a bug, or bad game design. Of course, then I get mad that I can’t find it written out, and have to skim around in some fucking YouTube video to figure it out.
For me it’s the opposite. I remember getting stuck in a game for days or weeks in the 90s. I would get to a point where I would just try to click everything on the screen, use every item with everything else, try all possible item combinations, etc.
These days, if I’m stuck for more than an hour or two I’ll just Google it. I’d rather move on faster and get to play more games in the limited time I have for such things.
Oh I had that same experience too. Especially with Mist. I never got far in it. I’m convinced the game was broken.
I played with cheats almost all the time when I was a kid, but I was rarely doing it for difficulty reasons. I just got used to the idea early on of game engines just being digital sandboxes and loved seeing how far I could push things.
I don’t really understand using cheats as a difficulty bypass unless you’re there just to get the story/explore.
I use ChatGPT similarly. If I want to explore an idea without consequence, I can use it to brainstorm, but it’s not going to be how I lay out an entire project.
