This is all bullshit.
Who fucking cares about these definitions? All y’all have the same damn enemy. Worry about the enemy first. Iron out disagreements over terminology once the fascists are gone.
It’s so weird that people spend so much time debating this pointless garbage.
Right? Do you want to get way more in terms of life quality? Then you are opposed to the hyper capitalist government. Do you want to get more money or do you want to give it to the oligarchs. It’s not polarized anywhere
Oh, the problem is much deeper than definitions. One group is socially progressive but economically right. Then, the other group is both progressive on social and economic issues. The economic policies is where the rift is.
Edit: wording
And the economic right have had all the power for the last god knows how many election cycles… They’ve been chasing the unicorn moderate that would somehow vote Democrat, which doesn’t exist, but in doing so they lose the “left” vote.
Those “centrists” and “moderates” are conservatives that are disgusted by the GOP, but would never vote for Democrats because they don’t agree with their policies. They have no party but the economic right liberals keep trying to attract them… Hopefully now with the change in DNC leadership they’ll stop this losing game and actually be what their voters want them to be.
The “unicorn moderate” used to exist, and they grew from post-war up to the early 2000s. They were called the middle class. Back then when the middle class was much more prominent and bigger, they could still afford both private healthcare and keep up with the cost of living. One of the key litmus test of being “moderate” is the survey on affordable healthcare. In early 00s, socialised healthcare was deeply unpopular. However, it was from during and after the Great Recession of 2008 that the middle class shrunk and recognised that people need more public assistance. Affordable healthcare became increasingly more popular as time went on.
Rent have also become almost unaffordable since the recession. Ever since then, many proposals and plans to create affordable housing were made but have been blocked not just by corporations, but also by individual homeowners who don’t want their house prices to go down. And one of the hard to swallow pills is that many of them are liberals. One could easily search online of affordable housing being voted down in California and New York, states that are liberal strongholds.
There is a reason why Zohran Mamdani’s New York mayoral campaign is more widely successful than other Democratic candidates. He is addressing the growing cost of living by wanting to cap rent prices and providing government run grocery stores, which made him popular among the poor. Because the middle class shrunk and people had been shoved into fringes of poverty. The “moderate” voters that the Democrats are chasing is no longer there. At this day and age, “moderate” for centrists and neoliberals means the wealthy, while pretending that the word means the middle class voters from 2000s.
Leftists feel powerless and most are too insecure to go out and actually debate in right-wing spaces, so all they have is bickering internally about other leftists and complaining about liberals to satisfy their need for intellectual debate and drama.
You simply can’t have an argument with a conservative, so I get how frustrating it is. But guys, there are other ways you can make progress, but I’m sorry to say it still involves leaving behind your discord polycule.
Debating in right wing spaces is futile. Those morons don’t know the first thing about sourcing material or the truth
The problem is we don’t have the same enemies, there are people who claim to be left but oppose Liberals, such as Tankies. Tankies aren’t the enemy of the GOP, they want the GOP to win over progressives like the DNC. They use words like “capitalism” to describe everything wrong with the USA because that way they can exclude the eastern dictatorships like Russia and China from the same criticisms.
Shit posts like the one above are the result of psyop campaigns.
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Is this what shitlibs tell themselves?
Any leftist will use words like capitalism to describe the issues because it’s fucking all pervasive. And China and Russia are also both capitalist despite whatever tankiefuck will tell you.
We don’t have the same enemies, because you ally with the ownership class and not your own.
Liberal means advocate of human rights, bare definition. If there is at all an ownership class then liberalism is not being administrated. And I assure you, the word “Capitalism” on Lemmy is used the vast majority of the time as a dogwhistle for “Western Nation”.
In what way does exchanging money for goods cause outlawing gay marriage or banning books? In what way does it cause not taxing the rich? Makes no goddamn sense. Authoritarianism and Conservatives cause those things.
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Liberal means advocate of human rights
Not unless you’re creating your own personal definition. At best, liberalism means advocating for individual rights, and where you or I might disagree with the application of that idea is where individual rights are in tension with communal or collective rights more broadly
In what way does exchanging money for goods cause outlawing gay marriage or banning books?
Markets are not the same as capitalism. It’s a description of a system that enshrines abstract ownership over systems of production. If you dont take issue with the coercive mechanisms within capital relations, then im not really sure where to put you ‘on the left’.
Mandated, unconditional individual rights ARE collective rights and also human rights.
You also appear to no know the definition of Capitalism because if Capitalism is not a regulated Market System then the USA is also not a capitalism. Not surprising since you people use it as a dog whistle to mean “western nation” that you lack understanding of what it actually means.
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Mandated, unconditional individual rights ARE collective rights and also human rights
Not when those rights are in conflict with another individual’s. The classic example is the individual right to private property, but there are many others. American liberals do recognize these limits and contradictions, but accept as granted the right to private property. It’s the center tenet of leftist critique, so it makes a lot of sense why there’s a lot of cynicism about liberals claiming to occupy the same space. Sure, they have some overlap, but the main contention is left unaddressed by American liberals and so leave themselves open to derision.
if Capitalism is not a regulated Market System then the USA is also not a capitalism
It’s a type of regulated market system, but it’s defined by its mode of production being capitalist in nature. Socialist and communist systems still employ regulated markets, but collectivize ownership over productive capital instead. Abolishing capitalism isn’t a way of saying we should abolish markets, but to remove capital as the mode of production
If rights to one person contradict the rights of another, resulting in loss and harm then guess what? Individual rights aren’t being mandated and upheld and that’s not Liberalism.
Socialist and communist systems still employ regulated markets, but collectivize ownership over productive capital instead.
No, they don’t, because that has never existed and will never if you keep bending over backwards to dictators.
Shit posts like the one above are the result of psyop campaigns.
It is a jab at Americans who can’t tell the difference between left and liberal and often conflate the two.
And sure look, if liberal Democrats really want to win again, they have to deal with “kitchen table issues” as Mamdani puts it. And as I mentioned to one of the commenters, who are the ones who keep voting down affordable rent and housing, even in liberal states, because it will bring their house prices down? Mamdani forwarded a solution to that by capping rent prices and he won over people for that. That alone says why American left and liberals are actually different though mainly on economic issues.
CaPitAlIST LIbrUhLS CoNFLaTe HuMAn riGHTs wiTh ProGRESS HUURRGGH DURRRR Yeah I know your whole spiel
Affordable housing, freedom from want and jobs are human rights.
Then why are you opposing them?
You should be asking yourself if you can read at all.
Man, how fucking right wing do you need to be to consider liberalism to be left wing?
American.
Nobody is left enough for anyone on the left, and no allies are wanted. No wonder the right are your guys lunch, they’re united while you all attack each other
thats why the right wins most of the time, they are unified by hate, while having too many different concessions is means the party is in disarray.
What does this even mean?
People here need reminding that every time the Dems lose, they go to the center to find voters. You can’t play Mexican standoff by protest-no-voting (or 3rd party) because they have an out: the center voter. And the center voter actually shows up.
I get confused because the right and left both call each other the libs and as far as I can tell, US liberals don’t really align to either liberalism or libertarianism, rather an acute section of them here and there for personal benefit.
The free market, for example, which both ideologies oppose as soon as it encroaches on other freedoms, becoming anti-liberal. But US libs will strip the liberties off anyone for a buck and an entirely unregulated free market will let them do that. Adam Smith covered so much of this stuff and I’m pretty sure US libs would say he’s a commie.
only tankies on lemmy call people here libs, and they are honestly no better than right wingers, both sides of the same coin.
Literally haven’t heard the term “tankie” since I blocked .ml like a year ago.
You’ve got a concept there I’ve thought about myself at times,—your coin faces—but no one’s going to take it seriously if the delivery sucks.
lemmy is the only place i heard it used extensively, on reddit its rarely mentioned, but mostly referring to cities/locations taken over by sketchy mods.
I wish these memes came with a political compass clarification of what these terms exactly mean for the author.
Americans sometimes use the two words to mean the same thing. So in that context it’s not as confusing but when they’re speaking with non-Americans it can cause issues and clearer terminology would be nice
It was kinda done intentionally to muddy the terms to prevent people from thinking of alternatives to the status quo.
That’s because the definition of the word means promoter of human rights, meaning anybody using it otherwise are the ones misusing the word.
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PSL exists belive it or not
Only party I support at this point.
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Our goal is not to change the system from within. Feel free to engage with DSA candidates and politics, I do too sometimes but I also understand that their influence is limited in scope and I should engage with revolutionary politics as well.
.ml user detected, opinion disregarded
Blinding yourself to the opinions of those who disagree with you is a great way to learn and grow 👍
Why don’t you go learn and grow on an infinite AI Slop feed. After all, no information can be detrimental, right?
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Only when it steps on the throats of the bourgeois ❤️
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Me, my comrades, and Neville Singham who I am relatively cool with. Class traitors of that variety are too uncommon
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Chinese funded militants? Hard fucking pass, China’s everything wrong with the USA and then some.
You don’t have to have a party for an ideology to exist.
It’s a good thing that that’s not what they said, then.
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an ideology doesn’t need to get elected to office to exist.
(Especially ideologies who see the state as illegitimate, say anarchism)
I would just like to state that most Americans have no idea what the difference between a liberal and leftist is. When you say you’re a liberal, they think you’re a leftist. When you say you’re a leftist, they think you’re a leftist. The conflation will always be there, given the history of the US and decades of the usage of the conflation in everyday American language.
Edit Addendum: it doesn’t help that liberals/democratic establishment are somewhat more “”“”“”“”““left””“”“”“”“” of the conservatives/Republicans, which is why liberals are grouped with the “left” in the US. It also doesn’t help that the “left”, who would be more accurately known as that grouping of socialists, communists, anarchists, and every other small or large anti-capitalist and or progressive political identity group, just call themselves “the left” or “leftist”, playing into the idea that one’s politics can be quickly understood by pointing to the linear spectrum of “right” and “left”, as if these broad and false dichotomies fit reality to a tee or some shit.
Left is Progressive. DNC create progress everytime we put them in, even without having more than 50 senate seats in over a decade. DNC are your dudes.
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Bernie lost because millions more people voted for the other candidates in 2016. The fact that he was even allowed to run on the DNC ticket despite his third party status is truly the opposite of fucking.
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If that were true they could be reaping the benefits of supporting the Trump Admin directly, like Walczak and Tim Cook have.
The fact of the matter is that the billionaires aren’t a united front, either, because some of them are smart enough to realize their fortunes mean jack fucking shit in the face of a dictator who can take whatever he wants.
If we had enough DNC to impeach then he would be impeached, if we had enough to remove then he would be removed. We’re in this situation to begin with because the GOP have all three chambers and the SCOTUS. None of this shit would be happening otherwise.
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And yet somehow none of this happened under the DNC? You make zero sense.
We already discussed this in another thread. The 2020 race was decided by Obama/DNC forcing multiple candidates to drop out. After Super Tuesday the chances were slim for Bernie to have any chance at winning and there was no point in voters coming out for the remaining primaries.
Stop spreading bullshit.
Can confirm. Only had the chance to vote for Bernie 5 months after it was “already decided”. Our primary system is so fucked. Most of the country does not get to participate and the same 5-10 states choose the candidate every time.
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Doesn’t matter. The guy made the same mistake for both elections.
I remember that thread, you owned yourself by linking to an article which disagreed with you.
Only it didn’t. Have you worked on your reading skills?
No,
I think we’ve decided this. The left (rightfully) hates the Democrats.
Yes, but I hate Trump more.
An inch of gained ground is better than a mile of lost ground.What gained ground?
Gay marriage rights, the railroad unions got their sick leave, the rich were being audited created serious revenue gains and if the DNC were in charge then the TCJA wouldn’t have been renewed meaning even more taxing of the rich.
The railroad unions thing is patently false (they wanted a lot more sick leave and a lot more than sick leave), but also: I’m asking what would’ve improved, not what would’ve not deteriorated or what improved in the past.
Okay I’m sorry that decades of evidence of improvements aren’t enough to convince you that things would have improved again, but then my statement about the TCJA expiring in 2026 and not becoming permanent still qualifies as an answer. We would be taxing the fucking rich. How can you even pretend that’s not what we should be doing?
Nothing Trump won. Decades of progress erased in 7 months. The genocide in Israel has accelerated. And our economy is crashing.
If Dems won and kept things as they were 7 months ago everything would be demonstrably better than they are now.
Would there still be issues? Of course there are always issues, but it would have been much better.
While this is all true, i can’t imagine that the left would have been celebrating a democratic win today if she won in the fall. If they truly wanted a democratic win (or to gain an inch) they would have pinched their noses and voted for Kamala
That’s true I guess. Way too superficial for my liking, but that’s outside the scope of this conversation. The person I replied to said there would be (small) gains from electing Harris, not just less losses, so I was asking for them yo elaborate.
To address small gains I could have seen at the very least Roe v. Wade being codified by a Harris White House.
Then why didn’t they do that in Biden’s term?
Republican controlled house and senate following midterms. Roe was overturned after mid-terms
Leftists hate democrats so much they helped vote in Trump instead of a very decent woman twice.
The only thing leftists hate more then democrats are other leftists.
Leftists aren’t numerous enough to have had much an effect on the election.
But I will confirm your second statement.
Two things:
Leftists did vote for Clinton. (You’ll recall she got more votes.) That is despite the fact that she was a piece-of-shit candidate that we didn’t want, and didn’t win the primary.
Harris was just plain stupidity. You can’t look poor people in the eye for three months and tell them you won’t change anything and still claim to be decent, much less a legitimate presidential candidate.
Respectfully, you’re being very unreasonable. You don’t get to punch the voters in the face and then whine that you broke your hand.
Kamala wasn’t a great candidate. But there were 2 options, and the other is deploying the military against civilians, ignoring due process.and court orders, and ordering states to imprison the homeless while ensuring an economic collapse that will create more homeless people.
Ignoring the problems with Bidens’ and then Harris’ campaign, which were disastrous and failed to earn the votes of many working class Americans, is precisely how the Democrats will continue to lose even in the face of unpopular fascist opposition.
Zohran Mamdani has been a microcosm of this paradigm shift. Progressive policies are incredibly popular because they address the material harms people face. Anti-israel policies are incredibly popular and only getting more so as Israel and the US continue to facilitate this genocide.
The corporate neoliberalism of the Democratic Party establishment is a critical part of the problem that got us to fascism. We need progressive candidates at all levels to dramatically reform the party and represent the working class constituency it’s supposed to represent.
Progressive policies that a majority of Americans support
Here Are 34 Polls That Show A Ceasefire & Weapons Embargo Help Kamala Win
Kamala Would Have Won With A Weapons Embargo
Democrats’ Working-Class Failures, Analysis Finds, Are ‘Why Trump Beat Harris’
2024 Post-Election Report: A retrospective and longitudinal data analysis on why Trump beat Harris
How Trump and Harris Voters See America’s Role in the World
Majority of Americans support progressive policies such as higher minimum wage, free college
Democrats should run on the popular progressive ideas, but not the unpopular ones
Here Are 7 ‘Left Wing’ Ideas (Almost) All Americans Can Get Behind
Finding common ground: 109 national policy proposals with bipartisan support
Progressive Policies Are Popular Policies
Tim Walz’s Progressive Policies Popular With Republicans in Swing States
Yeah, true progressives are great.
But that doesn’t mean you should hand power to treasonous, fascist rapists when your favorite candidate doesn’t get the nomination.
The Democratic Party did hand over power to treasonous fascist rapists, and they did so by running such a bad campaign, despite the consistent polling and public sentiment that showed exactly what needed to change. That’s precisely the issue I’m getting at. The Democratic Party establishment clearly prefers losing to fascists over representing everyday americans
I think you have definitely nailed the issues of most of the Democratic Party politicians in power. The Democratic Party Politicians don’t necessarily represent the interests of their leftist-liberal voters. They probably will continue to not do so if they are in safe seats and funded by corporations.
What needs to change at the local level, state level, and federal level is implementing an Alternative Voting system. As this is the key way we will be able to get progressive politicians, that support progressive policies, into power.
NYC had Ranked Choice Voting and it likely contributed in part to people feeling safe to vote their conscience and list Mamdani at the top of the ticket.
it has been shown that many counties voting places were rigged for trump, so she wouldve won anyways, if she hadnt actually conceded too quickly. Also dems dont fight election rigging by the gop at all.
Right…here we go with the purity tests again. If you don’t believe exactly what I believe, you dont deserve my vote. Its this attitude that got us a second Trump presidency, and how’s that working out for us?
Purity test = genocide good or bad.
If you fail this test, you deserve everything that happens to you.
If there is anything worthwhile for being a purity test, it’s being pro or anti genocide.
How can people expect any party who doesn’t care about genocide, to care about democracy?
Biden still got the most votes of any presidential candidates.
I’m rubbing the non-voter’s noses in the mess they made and hope they’ll do better in the midterms.
Without COVID Biden would have lost too.
Though, it was important to see Democrats demonstrate, publicly, that brain damage and genocide are not disqualifiers for the presidency in their view.
Biden’s ass cancer would have been a better president than the one we ended up with.
How’s the genocide working out, I think Trump is about to give away Ukraine and Israel is about to take over Gaza City, no?
Your profile is interesting. It’s almost like you believe a minority can do everything because you’re “right.” Are you in the burn it all down camp?
Artist, musical performer, and former derby skater from the Midwest.
I’m single, childless, and married to freedom and adventure.
ACAB, Anti-War, and I hate Democrats, Republicans, and billionaires.
harris was not voted for, purely out of sexisms, sorry but even people on the left can be a little sexist.
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It doesn’t matter who you vote for.
Democrats rig their primaries.
No it doesn’t.
If Ken Martin fixes primaries, one look at Minnesota tells you he’s so bad at keeping progressives out of office he might as well not be trying.
Either way, we have a solid chance of a decent dem candidate making it to the general. And if they do the general is a shoe in.
If Ken Martin fixes primaries, one look at Minnesota tells you he’s so bad at keeping progressives out of office he might as well not be trying.
I always say this, what happened to the Americans who stopped the Gilded Age and ushered in the two Roosevelts? Americans forgot how to mobilise.
No, the wealthy united against everyone else despite any differences during FDR.
This led to the Business Plot, which failed because the puppet general backed out and snitched on the wealthiest capitalists for trying to overthrow FDR …
And not a single person was punished.
They didn’t give up, they just decided buying both parties was easier than a coup, and maintained the illusion of choice.
We didn’t “forget” shit, we had our country stolen from us by the wealthiest citizens.
We didn’t “forget” shit, we had our country stolen from us by the wealthiest citizens.
I mean before FDR, during the Gilded Age. People successfully mobilised to curtail monopolists and other industry tycoons. I think Americans did forget to do that.
far right liberal capitalists or literally figurative nazis.
if you’re on the wrong side of us ‘foreign policy’ both of these groups will exterminate you all the same.
the bipartisan consensus between them is that capitalist exploitation continues
True, but maybe with small changes in the sociopolitical fabric of the US, eventually, in some decades, US foreign policy can change also. Western European powers are STILL up to no good in Africa and West Asia and they have been at it for hundreds of years… Small steps, right? 😔
Hey guys,
Remember when we found out Russia and China were manipulating us into fighting between left and right, and now they’re dividing the left into 2 camps that are supposed to hate each other?
Yeah.
Yeah.
.ml leading the charge on this.
I see a lot of other really suspicious shit around Lemmy. I have a suspicion it’s trying to be used like r/the_donald was.
If anything is being used to stir shit and divide and conquer it’s all the noxious anti-communist liberals running around crying about tankies
Yep. Just like that. Perfect example of the drivel they spread in an attempt to divide us.
You see the problem is if we don’t agree with everything liberals say then we are dividing the left somehow. When will you learn that we simply strongly disagree with your ideology? The left isn’t allied with liberals and never has been.
I disagree that there is a strong divide ideologically speaking. I think regarding the liberals in Congress this holds fairly true for their more conservative approach to progress, but I wouldn’t say it’s the same for what leftist-liberal voters want.
For instance, I’m in favor of Universal Basic Income, Universal Basic Services, union support/collective bargaining, Universal Healthcare, universal daycare, free college/trade school education, and support for nuclear power & renewable energy solutions.
I believe the capitalist system needs to be reigned in entirely where there should not be any billionaires. Tax loopholes need to be closed on corporations that allow for the billionaires to take loans on their stock. There should be no monopolies or big conglomerates as they prevent competition.
Furthermore, we should change the reward structure of our economy by highly subsidizing jobs like teaching, researching, and the arts as I believe these sectors are what help a society to flourish yet are underfunded/underpaid.
We differ in that I recognize this to be impossible under capitalism. Monopolies and imperialism are a feature not a bug
I disagree that they are impossible; hard to do yes, but not impossible. They require the political power to implement those things is the key thing, but that goes with everything. In the US for instance, if it was just the blue states voting for those things to be implemented in blue states and if the blue states funded it then I think would be possible to implement some of those things even in our current political climate.
There’s a few things you need to make it possible though:
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Ending Citizens United, as it is much harder to implement these changes when politicians can be bought by corporate interests.
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Alternative Voting systems in place at local, state, and federal levels. As progressive politicians sometimes have a higher barrier of getting off the ground verses incumbents due to vote splitting.
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Reimplementing and expanding the Fairness Doctrine to include all traditional media, social media, and apply to online influencers. As misinformation is currently allowed to be spread without audiences being presented a more well rounded picture.
I will add that the monopolies are inevitable if the system is unregulated. Same thing with cartels. Capitalism only works with regulations to keep the system working. As the entire benefit of capitalism, innovation, all but stops when competition is not allowed to happen with big companies. That is why we need regulators that are not able to be influenced or bought out by corporate lobbyists.
Imperialism is less a feature these days, more globalist multinational conglomeration. It’s cut from the same cloth though, with unscrupulous companies seeking to exploit locals in international markets. The answer to dealing with these entities is that we need a multinational trade deal with our allies.
Namely, we need to punish companies and countries that try to exploit locals in other counties for cheap/exploitative labor practices. Any country or company that doesn’t do business by the agreement should be met with steep tariffs, ideally with some of those funds set aside to go back to the workers who were robbed of the fruits of their labor. I believe the agreement should require that resources be collected in a way that is sustainable, implementing green practices, and non-exploitative.
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What have you agreed with them on?
Idk, stuff like racism is bad probably. They don’t actually need to follow through for me to agree
liberals will never stop insisting that they’re part of ‘the left’
The morons cheering on Putin’s invasion are not communists.
attacking a straw man on a two month old post
Good point, tankies isn’t a very well know term.
Telling new users they shouldn’t listen to the FooBars when they say “don’t vote for Genocide Joe, I’m your friendly neighborhood communist btw” doesn’t directly convey why the FooBars can’t be trusted. I think most people on Lemmy agree that communism isn’t the enemy.
Maybe instead of tankie, we should use a more known and direct descriptor: don’t trust the dictators.
I’m not sure what you’re trying to say here. We live in a dictatorship of capital, I’m opposed to that.
Yup. There’s stuff that pings my radar as well.
However, the technical barrier to actually getting on Lemmy forces a minimum level of intelligence. I. E. the pool of useful idiots is way smaller than reddit. Most tankie wank gets called out.
Doesn’t mean that we’re not being used for training data. I’m also still percolating on what can be done by just posting slanted articles and stifling disent.
Lemmy is better but still totally susceptible to manipulation.
Divide and conquer. If the left can’t see that then they doom us all. Liberals want freedom and justice and that is NOT being represented by most democrats
That’s a very one-sided take. Yes, leftists can easily fall for the divide and conquer purity tests. To pretend that liberals don’t fall for it as they have historically and are currently sabotaging popular & successful leftist candidates is ridiculous.
Show me a liberal sabotaging a leftist and I’ll show you a liar
Blackshirts and Reds - Michael Parenti - Ch 1
In Germany, a similar pattern of complicity between fascists and capitalists emerged. German workers and farm laborers had won the right to unionize, the eight-hour day, and unemployment insurance. But to revive profit levels, heavy industry and big finance wanted wage cuts for their workers and massive state subsidies and tax cuts for themselves.
During the 1920s, the Nazi Sturmabteilung or SA, the brown-shirted storm troopers, subsidized by business, were used mostly as an antilabor paramilitary force whose function was to terrorize workers and farm laborers. By 1930, most of the tycoons had concluded that the Weimar Republic no longer served their needs and was too accommodating to the working class. They greatly increased their subsidies to Hitler, propelling the Nazi party onto the national stage. Business tycoons supplied the Nazis with generous funds for fleets of motor cars and loudspeakers to saturate the cities and villages of Germany, along with funds for Nazi party organizations, youth groups, and paramilitary forces. In the July 1932 campaign, Hitler had sufficient funds to fly to fifty cities in the last two weeks alone.
In that same campaign the Nazis received 37.3 percent of the vote, the highest they ever won in a democratic national election. They never had a majority of the people on their side. To the extent that they had any kind of reliable base, it generally was among the more affluent members of society. In addition, elements of the petty bourgeoisie and many lumpenproletariats served as strong-arm party thugs, organized into the SA storm troopers. But the great majority of the organized working class supported the Communists or Social Democrats to the very end.
In the December 1932 election, three candidates ran for president: the conservative incumbent Field Marshal von Hindenburg, the Nazi candidate Adolph Hitler, and the Communist party candidate Ernst Thaelmann. In his campaign, Thaelmann argued that a vote for Hindenburg amounted to a vote for Hitler and that Hitler would lead Germany into war. The bourgeois press, including the Social Democrats, denounced this view as “Moscow inspired.” Hindenburg was re-elected while the Nazis dropped approximately two million votes in the Reichstag election as compared to their peak of over 13.7 million.
True to form, the Social Democrat leaders refused the Communist party’s proposal to form an eleventh-hour coalition against Nazism. As in many other countries past and present, so in Germany, the Social Democrats would sooner ally themselves with the reactionary Right than make common cause with the Reds.3 Meanwhile a number of right-wing parties coalesced behind the Nazis and in January 1933, just weeks after the election, Hindenburg invited Hitler to become chancellor.
Upon assuming state power, Hitler and his Nazis pursued a politico-economic agenda not unlike Mussolini’s. They crushed organized labor and eradicated all elections, opposition parties, and independent publications. Hundreds of thousands of opponents were imprisoned, tortured, or murdered. In Germany as in Italy, the communists endured the severest political repression of all groups.
Here were two peoples, the Italians and Germans, with different histories, cultures, and languages, and supposedly different temperaments, who ended up with the same repressive solutions because of the compelling similarities of economic power and class conflict that prevailed in their respective countries. In such diverse countries as Lithuania, Croatia, Rumania, Hungary, and Spain, a similar fascist pattern emerged to do its utmost to save big capital from the impositions of democracy.4
The Liberalism to Fascism Pipeline (Neoliberalism Explained)
True to form, the Social Democrat leaders refused the Communist party’s proposal to form an eleventh-hour coalition against Nazism. As in many other countries past and present, so in Germany, the Social Democrats would sooner ally themselves with the reactionary Right than make common cause with the Reds.
Well, the German SPD’s famous symbol was the three arrows, representing the opposition to conservatism, fascism and communism. Of course, SPD refused to form a coalition with the communists. And during the Great Depression, the SPD already lost their majority in the parliament and had to form a grand coalition with various parties. They were finally made insignificant when they lost more seats and influence in 1932 elections, being relegated in to minority and opposition. In spite of that, they are the only major party-- all 92 SPD MPs-- who voted down the Enabling Act, which gave absolute power to Hitler, while the rest of parliament either approved it or being communist MP they were prevented by SA to enter the parliament.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Democratic_National_Committee_email_leak
Maybe not the most solid rock to build an argument on, but for American values of leftist and liberal, you’ll find this to be a prime example.
If the left can’t see that then they doom us all.
Why is it the Left’s responsibility to toe the Liberal line in the name of unity, but never vice versa?
Mf I’m here right now talking about unity
Lol. Yeah im sure that it’s China and Russians who are causing leftist to not trust liberals. The last 300 years of human history in which liberals gleefully murdered leftists has nothing to do with it.
What’re you talking about, the whole system is working fine. The far right isn’t riding to popularity throughout Europe, and clearly hasn’t taken hold in the US.
Listen, if you can’t do everything I like, then you’re a fascist. And I mean everything. I’d pluck an example out of the air, but there’s no point, because someone else will. And yeah, it’s probably a good example, but I’m willing to bet the farm on it.
KGB handbook: play up the loudest voices on both sides of every social issue, make every tiny issue seem so overblown and saturated with lies and nonsense that average people stay out of it and stop trusting anyone involved.
This leaves people with no activism or outside opinion they can trust so they go along with whatever state media reports because what else is there.
This has worked wonders in other countries, it is working wonders in America. It is going to work in your country next, reader. What are you going to do about it?
The left has always been infighting. The two great memes of the left are walls of text and hating other leftists.
But liberals are not leftists. And we’ve disliked you for decades and globally.
I’m not saying that this isn’t happening, but at the same time it also seems to get heavily implied in threads like these that the solution is for leftists to just get onboard with two-party neoliberalist capitalism just for this next one election, just this once, we promise.
Calling on the Democratic Party to adopt left-wing policies keeps getting branded “divisive”, but calling on Leftists to adopt the center-right is treated like an attempt at unification.
The people calling for party unity don’t want any of the political aspects of a united Left, they just want to carry on the same policies they had before but with more people being scared into holding their noses and voting for them.
It’s just that lefties don’t seem to want to or know how to build power. It feels very performative. If they actually cared about any of the issues they are so vocal about, I don’t know, maybe they would do the groundwork to build a political framework. That’s why I applaud people like Zohran or AOC. They are there, doing the work day in and out. But online lefties are just pouting and crying about liberals non stop
Zohran
Thanks for picking an example that so beautifully supports my case. Literally the one time a guy comes up with some mildly left-of-center policies that might actually stand some chance of getting implemented, Establishment Democrats turned on him so strongly that the guy they actually wanted felt emboldened enough to run against him as an independent.
Yes. I didn’t think establishment democrats would just roll over without a fight. But they are boomers on their last ticket out. If we don’t at least try, then what’s the point? Is the sum total of all our efforts then intended to be online memes? That’s why I look up to Mamdani because he’s not punching the entire democratic apparatus. He’s punching the hardline centrist boomers that are holding the party back. After all, Zohran is running from within the democratic primary, and not as an independent. I have a lot of respect for him and will always support him. He’s doing the work to change the party and move it in the right direction. So is AOC. On the other hand, online lefties sum total action amounts to…memes? I don’t know. You tell me. What exactly are y’all doing?
You get it; I think there is an issue of conflating what the lazy, safe seat Democrats in office that are borderline Republicans want and what the Democratic voters want. Mamdani is closer to what liberal/left Democratic voters want for our party. A big issue is the politicians in power of our party are mostly corporate types that are not necessarily trying to rock the boat too much.
It’s a nuanced and multifaceted issue which mainly comes from Citizens United. Plus, it’s an issue of the First Past the Post voting system in much of the country making it harder for more progressive candidates to come out ahead.
I think there’s also a bit of a misconception that we can’t incorporate things like Universal Healthcare, Universal Basic Income, Universal Basic Services, or other progressive/leftist policies under our current economic system.
That’s not to say that we can’t change things down the line, but we can regulate capitalism and create income floors so no one is going without food, medicine, shelter, or support.
Yeah I’m done arguing with Russian trolls tonight. Good luck in your future endeavors.
The hilarious thing about this is that I’m not even the only person in this thread that you’ve accused of being a Russian troll.
It doesn’t even make sense on its own terms, like why would the Russians be trying to promote the case that the Democratic Party should make more concessions to the Left? Is “Russian troll” just what you call anyone who disagrees with your theories on political strategising?
The big irony is that I don’t think you even realize just how perfectly you proved my original point. “Leftists should toe the Liberal Line” = Not Troll, “Liberals should accommodate Left-wing policies” = Troll, apparently
The post is a jab about American folks who conflate the terms. I wasn’t expecting people to take this as seriously as others have!
Although now that you mentioned it, I kinda sense that there could be something going on sometimes, especially on comments looking down on the working class supporting the Republicans, while refusing to acknowledge that they used to vote Democrats. Plenty of people worth their salt would tell anyone that it is because the working class felt abandoned after the outsourcing of jobs without offering alternatives. Unfortunately, a lot on the left, but more so on liberals, don’t see this and keep calling the working class as dumb hicks. There are definitely folks who are too far gone and support fascists, but to caricaturise everyone in the demographic while a more plausible explanation is available seems tone deaf. It made me think that there could be an intentional wedge to create in-fighting for such deliberate nosing down.
Where are you from that somehow this isn’t affecting you. I just saw top posts on Lemmy about how Germany and France joined the UK in having far right parties reach the top of the polls. Please don’t let me demean whatever country you’re from if it’s not those, but a world where Germany, France, the UK, join the already gone US in far right ideology is no bueno (to use a language that might suffer in the future). But go ahead and take your jabs, because time is running out.
Why do you think housing crisis and wealth inequality is happening across the world? Why did the working class is turning to the right when they used to vote liberal? These issues doesn’t just stop in the US as you pointed out. It is almost as if valuing private property and individualism is not the Achilles heel of liberals. And precisely private property and individualism is what liberalism was founded on.
I am going to be blunt. The difference between non-US liberals and US liberals is that the former know exactly who they are and what they want-- they are NIMBYs who don’t want their property value to go down, and homeless families and children and tenants paying half their monthly salary in rent be damned. Meanwhile, US liberals shy away from admitting they are NIMBYs, but instead caricaturise the working class as racist hicks, rather than recognising they are mostly decent folks who just want roof over their heads and not living paycheck to paycheck. There are plenty of news of neighbourhoods in liberal California and New York blocking affordable housing.
A lot of people commenting here and seemingly annoyed that liberal and left are different because of said issues, is precisely what this post is about. Knowing they are different is a start.
The left and liberals are one and the same in America.
Now I’m sure you’re going to go on some stupid fucking diatribe about how “aCkShuAllY they AREN’T”.
That’s just Russian fucking propaganda. You’re trying to bisect the left to create infighting in order to prop up fascist interests.
Begone, troll.
I read comments from a lot of Europeans (and maybe those in Oceania, I’ll be honest, I don’t think much about that region because I’m from America) who seem to think they’re immune from what happened in the US over the last decade plus, but it’s clearly spreading, and yet it’s this onslaught of shit talking, Americans are dumb, there is only one liberalism, if you’re not with us you’re against us.
Well, they divided the left, people lost interest, and now what was unarguably the strongest nation in the world has gone awry, but let’s go ahead and wax poetic about this unrealistic perfect world that people want. The right, as much as I disagree with them, is pretty grounded in reality, and they use that to their advantage, and the left lives in Idealand, and that’s a vague concept. And it’s a great place, but it’s not possible when you shit on people who don’t match your exact idea.
I’m farting into the wind here, I’ve got a less than zero confidence many of these accounts exist solely to create strife, the same way they did on Reddit. This isn’t a leftist Utopia, it’s a fucking blender.
However you define liberal, there is the big question mark. Why did the working class used to vote liberal and Democrats but now turned to the right?
The left and liberals are one and the same in America.
Just ask the opinion on economic issues and there is stark difference.
That’s just Russian fucking propaganda.
Is it really Russian propaganda? Or American oligarch propaganda to conflate the two terms?
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I hate liberals more than conservatives because at least with conservatives they don’t go around pretending to be on my side while doing heinous shit. Conservatives just do the heinous shit without the pretense.
I dont get it
