Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.
“Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war.”
It’s an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book “On Killing” by Dave Grossman. It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Sure, but couldn’t the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.
At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.
We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn’t matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn’t matter how you were raised. It doesn’t matter if you were “just following orders.” It doesn’t even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.
The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.
It absolutely could, and should. I’m not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it’s uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.
They have a choice. They could either kill innocent people or sit in a jail cell. Picking the first one makes you a sociopath.
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail, especially since he is a trained soldier.
Stop making excuses, “complexity” doesn’t justify genocide. Do you also think that our soldiers who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are just victims? Do you think the surviving family members would agree with that sentiment? That their families murderer is a victim?
It’s all the same shit. They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail
glances at the state of Israeli prisons, complete with guards who have the designated job of raping prisoners
Maybe not a lot less.
They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
Given the degree to which the NATO states consult with IDF security officials when training their own police and military, it might be them passing their brutal and fascist policies onto us.
It’s not a justification for genocide, it’s a call for empathy. Give what I wrote another read with that in mind.
As for your questions… I think our soldiers are victims. I was there, so I think I’ve got at least a somewhat informed perspective on things. It’s not something you can prepare for. In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time, but it will never be the majority.
Empathy isn’t just about feeling sad for other people. It is about relating to them emotionally. In this case, we’re dealing with people who are professional physical, psychological, and sexual abusers. Empathizing them should mean recognizing these sociopathic traits and recoiling in horror.
If you’re feeling pity for a chronic abuser, you’re not feeling empathy. You’re being exploited. The first response to dealing with a chronic abuser is to separate yourself from them. If you’re opening yourself up to their manipulation, you’re feeding into the abuse cycle.
In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time
How can you even begin to talk about forgiveness as this act of abuse is still playing out before our eyes?
And if the glass house you call your home exists in the united states, then your taxes financed filling the soldiers heads with the propaganda, financed sending them out on the field, made sure they had rations and ammo, and paid to put their finger on that trigger. What’s your culpability, compadre? You know when you point your finger at someone, you’ve got three more aimed straight at yourself, right?
Oh, no. You misunderstood. I absolutely acknowledge that. It’s a pretty spicy issue in my area. It would pretty rad to choose where my taxes go, though. I’d much rather fund schools and national parks. I think that’s dragging things a bit off-topic, though.
Israeli conscription is becoming as fierce and draconian as Russian conscription. A big reason why the Israeli economy is tanking stems from the mass mobilization of working age adults to do war crimes.
Dave Grossman is full of shit. This is independent to the potential trauma from killing people (there’s a wide range of reactions to that experience). Dave Grossman is full of shit.
Posted this in another thread, gonna post it here, too.
“Looking another human being in the eye, making an independent decision to kill him, and watching as he dies due to your action combine to form one of the most basic, important, primal, and potentially traumatic occurrences of war.”
It’s an unpopular take, but I recommend everyone read the book “On Killing” by Dave Grossman. It’s obvious that what Israel is doing is very much a genocide, but I stand firm in my opinion that their boots-on-the-ground infantryman are also victims of the Israeli political machine.
Sure, but couldn’t the same be said for many of the literal guards at Auschwitz? A lot of those people were just kids who were drafted and were simply following orders. Even many of those who were there willingly only did such things after being subject to years of ruthless Nazi propaganda.
At some point, regardless of what circumstances led you to that moment, you become responsible for your own actions. There is no set of circumstances that can make murdering innocent civilians justified. And if you do that anyway, you bear full moral culpability, regardless of what may have happened in your life before that point.
We literally hashed this out during the Nuremberg trials. It doesn’t matter what propaganda you were subject to. It doesn’t matter how you were raised. It doesn’t matter if you were “just following orders.” It doesn’t even matter if you yourself would face execution for refusing to kill innocent civilians. It is never OK to kill innocent civilians, to perform genocide, or commit ethnic cleansing. If you do that, you deserve to hang for it. Full stop. No excuses.
The Nuremberg Trials are a great example of how you don’t hang if you provide enough value to the military-industrial complex, and a terrible example of full stop no excuses. Seems ill suited to be a foundation for a moral philosophy.
It absolutely could, and should. I’m not saying that the crimes should be forgiven, but it is not a purely black and white area. It is very grey. To ignore the fact that they were ordinary people in extraordinary circumstances, just because it’s uncomfortable to think about, would be a disservice towards efforts to prevent things like this in the future. People are complex.
They have a choice. They could either kill innocent people or sit in a jail cell. Picking the first one makes you a sociopath.
I guarantee he would face a lot less trauma in jail, especially since he is a trained soldier.
Stop making excuses, “complexity” doesn’t justify genocide. Do you also think that our soldiers who slaughtered hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis are just victims? Do you think the surviving family members would agree with that sentiment? That their families murderer is a victim?
It’s all the same shit. They are copying us creating more terrorists for the future wars
glances at the state of Israeli prisons, complete with guards who have the designated job of raping prisoners
Maybe not a lot less.
Given the degree to which the NATO states consult with IDF security officials when training their own police and military, it might be them passing their brutal and fascist policies onto us.
Would you rather be raped or slaughter children?
I’d rather neither. But I accomplish that by not being an Israeli Settler forced to choose.
It’s not a justification for genocide, it’s a call for empathy. Give what I wrote another read with that in mind.
As for your questions… I think our soldiers are victims. I was there, so I think I’ve got at least a somewhat informed perspective on things. It’s not something you can prepare for. In my experience, forgiveness and understanding come with time, but it will never be the majority.
Empathy isn’t just about feeling sad for other people. It is about relating to them emotionally. In this case, we’re dealing with people who are professional physical, psychological, and sexual abusers. Empathizing them should mean recognizing these sociopathic traits and recoiling in horror.
If you’re feeling pity for a chronic abuser, you’re not feeling empathy. You’re being exploited. The first response to dealing with a chronic abuser is to separate yourself from them. If you’re opening yourself up to their manipulation, you’re feeding into the abuse cycle.
How can you even begin to talk about forgiveness as this act of abuse is still playing out before our eyes?
And if the glass house you call your home exists in the united states, then your taxes financed filling the soldiers heads with the propaganda, financed sending them out on the field, made sure they had rations and ammo, and paid to put their finger on that trigger. What’s your culpability, compadre? You know when you point your finger at someone, you’ve got three more aimed straight at yourself, right?
Oh, no. You misunderstood. I absolutely acknowledge that. It’s a pretty spicy issue in my area. It would pretty rad to choose where my taxes go, though. I’d much rather fund schools and national parks. I think that’s dragging things a bit off-topic, though.
Settlers enlisted in an occupying force that seeks to claim more territory over the bodies of the native occupants are not victims.
They have mandatory service, though I’m sure very few people serving their mandatory term are a part of the invading force.
Israeli conscription is becoming as fierce and draconian as Russian conscription. A big reason why the Israeli economy is tanking stems from the mass mobilization of working age adults to do war crimes.
Dave Grossman is full of shit. This is independent to the potential trauma from killing people (there’s a wide range of reactions to that experience). Dave Grossman is full of shit.
What a fitting name. Because he is quite gross
Caramel Marks, I mean Karl Marx, would probably agree with you.
Imperial war.