- cross-posted to:
- mtf@lemmy.blahaj.zone
- cross-posted to:
- mtf@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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Jesus fucking Christ, sports shouldn’t be a political issue at all. It’s literally a fucking game, the government and politicians shouldn’t be involved in this shit at all in the first place. We should care about as much about Kamala’s opinion on the WNBA as we do about her opinion on Minecraft. The leagues are privately-owned companies, let them run their fucking company how they want (which up to this point, has been trans-inclusive).
Agreed, but people are sooooo into sports and their teams. Sometimes I think we’ve turned politics into sports teams, making bipartisan politics harder to achieve.
Why do you think GW Bush’s daddy bought him a baseball team, and why do you think Trump was involved in WWE? The same rube-manipulation techniques that are used in sports are used in fascist politics.
only sometimes?
Generally yes. But the government also enforces civil rights, including against sex and gender discrimination, especially at public (i.e. government-funded) universities.
And behold the thing that I said was going to happen, has happened. More democrats engaging in transphobia to try to pry votes away from the fascist party by being fascist-lite.
Can we stop pretending the democrats can be reformed now? Their leadership has time and time again proven they do not give one fuck about progressive politics.
This comment section could be a case study about how China and Russia have used wedge issues to divide America. This kneejerk bullshit is why we have an orange goomba in the white house.
Ding ding ding
Also, trump has been an enormous wedge in US and world society, arguably his worst crime of all
This is a tactic used by far right parties for much longer than China and Russia have had the chance to interfere with US and Europe politics.
Republicans picked these wedge issues all by themselves, following the manual of fascism to the T.
It’s not China and Russia, it’s both Republicans and Democrats being fascist Nazis, only one is slightly nicer and more convincing that they give a shit about human rights.
Did no one actually read the article past the vaguely misleading headline?
“I agree with the concerns expressed by parents and players that we have to take into account biological factors such as muscle mass and unfair student athletic advantage when we determine who plays on which teams, especially in contact sports,” Harris reportedly wrote. “With goodwill and common sense, I believe we can come up with ways to do this, without vilifying and demonizing children.”
“with goodwill and common sense, I believe we can…”
When the folks across the aisle you’re champing at the bit to reach demonstrate goodwill and common sense, maybe you might have a ghost of a chance. Until such time, you’re validating the position that trans women have no place in established sports.
So…until then, goodwill and common sense shouldn’t apply to your approach? What policy should you adopt, until the other side decides to get their shit together?
Should we advocate for exactly the kind of hyperbolic position that Republicans use as a strawman, to argue against inclusion?
My problem with the article is how much air Americans give to the topic of trans athletes in sports when Americans have more pressing problems. Healthcare, affordability of life, violence are real issues affecting Americans much more than sports games. I don’t think giving air to this conversation is helping Americans.
That’s the entire point of all these “culture war” issues. They’re used as distractions for more pressing matters, that the ruling class really doesn’t want to address, because they know conservatives will be outraged by them, and progressives won’t be able to just let people be victimized, for no reason. If the public tires itself out, fighting over topics like these, there’s a better chance we won’t have the energy to demand real action on more expensive things.
There’s no peer-reviewed, statistically sound evidence that trans people have unfair advantages in sports.
Not that sports should matter that much.
Oh, so they are going to mandate weight and height classes across the board for all sports and stop separating sport by gender?
Prior to Republicans passing laws to outright ban transgender athletes from participating altogether, they actually had standards in place for how long athletes had to be on HRT, before they were allowed to compete. By all physical accounts, this meant that those athletes had comparable muscle mass and bone densities to the gender they identified as.
What else would you expect? Even between biological girls of the same age, there are significant differences between individual athletes. Once you include training, diet and other normal genetic factors…the differences between a trans athlete on HRT and a cis athlete is actually well within those standard margins. Any advantage they might have, comes from skill and training alone.
It was more of a joke in how ridiculous it would be to implement such a system… the logistics would be crazy for team sports…
But like you said, it would be easier to just let them play…
If you want to be crazy you can add a new format for anyone, but men… and make the men’s category just open so that anyone can join…
You know, they used to not separate sports by gender, until the ladies started beating the men. Then all of a sudden, nah we gotta split em up. So, even if their argument had any kind of validity, it still doesn’t.
According to whom? The Heraean Games were held in conjunction with the ancient Greek Olympics. Are you saying that they were designed to spare men’s feelings, or are you saying that the tradition of sparing men’s feelings was already in place in the ancient world?
Right now, women are allowed to compete with men in the NBA, NFL, and MLB.
We never see them participating because they physically cannot compete with the males.
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds. There is no such thing as values on the liberal wing of politics, just as there are no values on the MAGA wing. As soon as capital is involved, they will drop anything they stood for.
Ah yes. BoTh sIdEs
I’m queer. I’m not falling for your bullshit. Libs will drop trans people as soon as they can if it means appeasing their corporate overlords. We’ve seen it all over the “civilized” world. They did it in the UK, they’re doing it right now in the US.
Possibly, but third party isn’t an option. You can and should criticize Democrats, but calling them fascists and the same as maga is pretty unproductive.
Neoliberal garbage. This is why she lost to literal fascists.
Can somebody explain to me why we shouldn’t have a trans league or allow them to play with the opposite gender? There’s a reason we have men’s and women’s leagues. Trans women can have a big advantage over many cis women. What am I missing here?
When trans women go on GAHT/HRT, our bodies change a lot. I’ve lost considerable muscle mass and strength versus just over a year ago (it was very noticeable in the garden this year, oof). The lack of testosterone also changes your mental state and tones down the stereotypical male competitive nature. You literally become softer.
My personal opinion is that if you’re on hormones for at least a few years, you’ve shown that you clearly want to play and shouldn’t be disqualified, and at the very least be given a chance to participate. As far as I’m concerned, this entire thing is politically-charged and is about as interesting as acetaminophen and vaccines causing autism.
What you don’t hear is trans men wanting to compete in men’s sports. They need to have a voice too, as rare as it might be.
The first is that trans women do not have a big advantage over cis women. They have, at best, a very slight advantage, depending on their time on HRT and age.
The second is that there isn’t a lot of trans people. Trans people make up around 2-3% of the population, so they would have around 1/30th of the number of teammates in their school. That would be difficult to make a full team around. And because they’re segregated out, they would need to find other teams to play against, as well.
The third thing you’re missing is that you really only care about trans women in this debate. Do you care if trans men compete against cis men? They compete at very similar levels, too, and if you think being born as a woman is a disadvantage, then why do they do just as well after transitioning?
And the last thing is that we have gendered leagues due to a sexist history behind sports. Women weren’t allowed to compete in a variety of sports for a long time. Women’s leagues were initially created for the same reason black leagues were created. We have kept them because they are a really lazy way to determine what category of play you are in, as though they act similar to weight classes in wrestling. But athletes within the same sex can compete at completely different abilities for different reasons. Taller players can have a much bigger advantage against shorter players in a ton of sports, so why don’t we use height as a determiner of which league you play in instead?
only considered trans women because generally in sports you’re trying to be stronger and larger. Trans men can do that and have the disadvantage.
I get what you’re saying about separate leagues but the strongest and tallest men would have an advantage over the strongest and tallest women, skill aside.
Maybe just make a mixed league that everybody is cool with playing in and keep separate leagues too.
No, I get it. But, you’re using what you feel is true versus what is true. The “advantage” you’re talking about isn’t significant among any study, ranging from a 7% advantage in some athletic categories to a 13% disadvantage in others.
Competitive sporting associations have rules and regulations for trans athletes competing in sex-segregated leagues, and they typically involve around two years on HRT and I’m not sure if you’re aware of the side effects of starting HRT, but athletes typically see substantial muscle loss. These competitive organizations do not see trans athletes excel when following these rules. And that is because trans athletes aren’t superior to cis athletes.
The strongest and tallest man probably has some advantages in some sports over the tallest and strongest woman, but you need to compare the strongest and tallest trans man to the man and trans woman to woman because those comparisons are surprisingly more in favor of the cis athlete than you would probably like for a whole host of reasons.
In sports every little bit matters. There’s not enough data among athletes to support what you’re saying. Some studies show that there is still an advantage. What you feel is true is true based on cherry-picking studies.
Unless you can point to all of the trans athletes dominating sports right now, my point is pretty easy to defend. If it is a competitive advantage, there would be multiple trans athletes at the top of women’s sports regardless of how uncommon being trans is, and there simply isn’t.
You’re saying there’s not enough data, but you’re also saying that it shouldn’t be allowed, therefore ensuring there will never be enough data using, again, the exact same excuses for making black leagues (competitive advantage). And to accuse me of cherry-picking while explicitly doing so is ironic, since I was using aggregated studies.
It would be simpler for you to claim that you will never accept trans people, instead of trying to use logic to defend your stance, because you’re wrong.
You’re assuming a lot. I’ll never accept trans people? That’s a big statement. Sorry to have offended you. Hope you have a nice day.
Wait, where are you going? You still haven’t shown this group of trans people that are the top of women’s sports.
Statistically, if there is an advantage, trans people would be the top of their sports, given that all other factors would be normalized. So, you simply have to show that there is a congregation of trans people at the top. That would inarguably prove that you are correct and there is a competitive advantage to being trans. If you leave, I will continue to be under the (correct) assumption that there is no advantage to being trans.
Taller players can have a much bigger advantage against shorter players in a ton of sports
Can you give some examples of these sports?
Not enough trans anthletes to warrant their own league. Who would even watch it?
Guess who else has an advantage over many other cis women? Cis women with “superior” genetics. We don’t bar them. In fact, finding them seems to be one of the main drives of sports.
Usain Bolt has such a massive genetic advantage over everyone else and no one is calling for him to be banned from running, or to be forced in to his own league. Same with Michael Phelps. Let’s not even get started on tall people in basket ball.
A person’s sex is just more genetics.
Well, there is Imane Khelif. There was a push to bar her from boxing. But that kind of thing happens very rarely.
The push to ban her was because of a conspiracy theory that she wasn’t actually born female, wasn’t it? I think that puts her in to the “ban because she’s trans” category, rather than the “ban her for superior genetics” category. Ie, without the current “trans sports panic” no one would have even considered banning her.
I think the reason they were accusing her of being trans was just because she’s naturally a good boxer.
The difference is HRT could be considered as gaming the system whilst being born that way is luck of the draw.
Michael Phelps has gentics made for swimming that allow him to perform multiple strokes to perfection. He’s considered a lucky man. If there was a pill one could take to attain such superhuman abilities. It would be considered doping, and rightfully so.
Being trans is being born that way.
How so? The classifications are based on sex and not gender
That’s irrelevant. Being trans isn’t “gaming the system” it’s just something you’re born being. No one is going to transition for an advantage in a ball game and it’s ridiculous to even suggest it.
Right! No one is doing so now, but there’s nothing stopping people from doing so if it becomes so normalized. It’s a reductio ad absurdum of your argument. You’re acting like this is the first time legislation can be passed in favour of a group of people such that it can’t be abused by others strictly for personal gain.
Furthermore, just because people’s intentions for transitioning now aren’t chiefly to obtain an advantage in a ball game doesn’t mean that they DON’T actually possess an advantage…
Also you need to provide a justification for why my initial distinction is “irrelevant”. The classifications into men’s and women’s sports are based on sex and not gender.
No one would ever do it and it’s ridiculous and transphobic to suggest it. Do you think a cis man would actually choose to live like this for a possibly minor advantage in women’s sports? It’s a joke.
I’m sure someone might try, but once the realities of gender dysphoria sink in and their boobs start growing they’d realize it isn’t worth transitioning to the wrong gender just to be able to dunk in the WNBA or whatever. I don’t think you realize how fucking horrible it is for your body to mutate into a (WRONG HORRIBLE NO NO NO) form that you hate. No one would choose to live like that for what might ultimately be a very minor advantage. Stop entertaining that as a legitimate concern.
Whether we should segregate sports by sex instead of other considerations is a separate conversation that other people in this thread want to have, but that’s besides the point I’m trying to make. I’m telling you, gender dysphoria isn’t something someone would choose.
Gender dysphoria is real. Stop trivializing it.
A few years ago, I played roller derby. It’s one of the most trans inclusive sports on the planet. Trans women are explicitly welcome to play in the womens leagues.
I live in Australia, in a city of a couple of million people. We had 4 or so different derby “clubs”, and each one of those could field anywhere between 1 and 3 derby teams of various levels. Once you looked outside of the city to include towns and smaller cities within a couple of hours drive, there were around 10 or so “teams”. I was one of 2 trans folk active in my city at the time (3 if you count someone who was playing on the mens team)
Now, every capitol city in Australia has a similar situation, though the bigger cities can field a few more teams than my city could.
At one tournament weekend, with a whole year of planning, folk decided to put together a trans team for a demonstration game. It took the whole country to fill that team, and they played the game, without having had any chance to practice together.
There wasn’t enough trans folk to make two teams, let alone a meaningful season, with playoffs and multiple rounds against different teams.
“Just make a trans league” has the same meaning as “trans people aren’t allowed to participate”.
You could make a trans and cis league, keep cis league and then eventually create a trans league.
Notably, this is so typical of the issues we face. It’s a type of (subtle) transphobia called “Just asking questions” or, more rudely “JAQing off”
You “just asked a question” about trans leagues.
I made a multi paragraph response, from a first hand, lived experience.
Your response in turn, did not connect or engage with a single thing I wrote, despite my entire post being a reply to your question, and was basically just another question, shifting the goal posts to the try and arrive at an answer that aligns with the perspective you clearly already hold.
A perspective clearly on display in your other engagements in this thread, where you haven’t once given ground, taken anything on board or shifted your position in response to someone giving you an answer to your questions. All you have done is push for exclusion, and then just shift the board around to push from a different direction.
You may not be actively transphobic, but you are doing the work of transphobes either way, because you phrase your questions as if you’re open to hearing the responses from folk, but keep pushing for exclusion, no matter what answer you get.
Sorry I didn’t remark on your experience playing roller derby. I absolutely responded to what you said by saying that they could create a separate league that combines people because there aren’t enough numbers. That was your whole point with your big long answer. Don’t need to respond to every piece it. You may not be a pretentious but you’re doing the work of pretentious people.
Trans leagues don’t work because there aren’t enough trans people. That’s not going to change. Trans people will always be a minority. We won’t suddenly get the numbers to support segregated teams.
Your solution is delay segregation, so that we can be segregated in the future. It so fundamentally misses the heart of the issue… Segregation is the problem… If cis folk would just “not” segregate trans folk, the problem would be gone. So your solution is to start with the point we want to end up at, where no one is excluded, until we get to a point where exclusion is possible, and then do it!
You may not be a pretentious but you’re doing the work of pretentious people.
Yeah, because my attitude is the real issue here, not the ongoing campaign of exclusion and hatred targeting trans folk…
There already is segregation in sports. This is not new and for some it’s not some targeted attack on trans people. It’s coming from the same reason we separate men and women’s sports. In fact, it’s quite inclusionary to try to segregate trans sports because that’s what we do already. One day trans people may no longer be the minority they are and you might be thinking, hey I’d like to have a trans exclusive league.
The whole idea is to have a league where people are cool with playing with trans people or even make it a league where anybody can play, but also keep leagues for just cis people. Then if you want have a trans league.
it’s not some targeted attack on trans people
It literally is. The transphobic organisations pushing this openly admit that it’s a wedge tactic, a first step to make future trans segregation easier.
One day trans people may no longer be the minority they are and you might be thinking, hey I’d like to have a trans exclusive league.
You can rest assured, we will not reach a day when I enjoy being segregated
The whole idea is to have a league where people are cool with playing with trans people or even make it a league where anybody can play, but also keep leagues for just cis people.
So, “open” leagues tend to just be mens leagues, with the odd adventurous cis woman, and the gender diverse people that have been pushed out of their other spaces.
And I don’t want to play with men for the same reason that most cis women don’t want to play with men. On average, they are stronger, faster and put me at a higher risk of injury.
And it doesn’t matter how “open” the league is, when the majority of people in it are cis men, it’s deeply uncomfortable to navigate that space as anyone who isn’t a cis man.
I’d assume there aren’t actually enough trans women trying to play sports to form a league. NCAA President Charlie Baker testified in December 2024 that he knows of fewer than ten transgender college student-athletes among 510,000 athletes total.
You could make a league that trans and cis people could play in, and keep a league for cis. Then eventually start trans league.
I’m also concerned for their safety and wellbeing. That’s why you’re concerned, right Mrs. Harris?
…That’s why you’re concerned, right?
Concerned about, not for.
And we all know, sports is the most important thing right now. Or ever.
Especially when no trans athletes are at the top of any sport they’re involved in.
It’s all about harassment of a small, vulnerable minority. It has nothing to do with fairness.
Why should I give a shit what a politician says about fucking sports, period?
Everything that comes put of Kamala’s mouth concerns culture war crap. I’m convinced she’s just a MAGA sock puppet, because not only does she have no chance of winning over republican voters, but also now alienated democrat voters with this crap. Unbelievable!
Ignore her, and newsom. Jon stewart 2028.
Liberals are toast bro 🤣
Sure she supports genocide, but she’ll protect those trans people you progressives care about for some stupid reason. Fuck, most of them aren’t even billionaires.
Later: on this subject she also agrees with charlie kirk, a good christian and family man who never said anything unpleasant don’t fire me.
This shit again? I can’t believe we’re still talking about this like it’s an issue that matters AT ALL.
