• TranquilTurbulence@lemmy.zip
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            1
            ·
            edit-2
            5 days ago

            They are essentially saying that they would be happy in a place that does not exist. Doesn’t exclude the possibility that happiness could still be found in a place that does.

        • sho@ani.social
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          4
          ·
          5 days ago

          This the etymology yes.

          “But it now usually describes an ideal society that is considered better than contemporary society.”

          So, as you can see we’re not in ancient greece, are we? “Buzz lightyear smug squint”

    • brygphilomena@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      3
      arrow-down
      1
      ·
      4 days ago

      Utopias are inherently dystopian in they only work when everyone wants the same things and everyone is bound by strict rules. There is no such thing as a utopia.

    • scarabic@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      English
      arrow-up
      2
      ·
      4 days ago

      Interesting concept. Kind of like “is it really heaven if people you didn’t like while you were alive are also there?”

      Utopia can never be utopia for everyone because some people will want hierarchy and superiority over others. So with this requirement, utopia cannot exist. Maybe that’s why it doesn’t :D

      • FooBarrington@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        ·
        4 days ago

        “Utopia” doesn’t mean everyone gets what they want. People can want things to be worse while still living in a Utopia.

        • scarabic@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          2
          ·
          4 days ago

          I agree with your more sensible definition but it is a slippery concept.

          It’s a bit ambiguous what it means to say:

          unless it’s Utopia for everyone

          Is it Utopia “for” someone if it isn’t their idea of Utopia? Seems like you are saying yes.

          But if yes, then as long as current conditions meet anyone’s definition of utopia, then we’re all living in one.

          Which brings us back to the OP.

          • FooBarrington@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            ·
            4 days ago

            But if yes, then as long as current conditions meet anyone’s definition of utopia, then we’re all living in one.

            No, Utopia has a defined set of meanings. If current conditions meet someone’s definition of Utopia, but doesn’t meet the defined set of meanings, it doesn’t mean current conditions are Utopia.

            • scarabic@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              2
              ·
              edit-2
              4 days ago

              Where exactly is this defined meaning?

              utopia (noun) an imagined place or state of things in which everything is perfect.

              According to Oxford Languages it is very much in the eye of the beholder and not objectively defined.

              • FooBarrington@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                1
                ·
                4 days ago

                Let’s go with the Cambridge definition:

                a perfect society in which people work well with each other and are happy

                The Oxford Languages definition is incomplete enough to not be a valid counter argument - “perfect” doesn’t mean everyone 100% gets what they want. The only sensible interpretation is “perfect” from a societal perspective.

                • scarabic@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  English
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  ·
                  4 days ago

                  Well we may just have to disagree. Even your definition requires that everyone be happy, and cooperating. I think that goes against your earlier contention that regardless of what people want, utopia has an objective definition.

                  It is what people want it to be, and people want different things.