Trying to argue with conservatives.
All that they’re great at is detouring, distancing, playing down, doubling-tripling down, disassociating, strawmen and more illogical fallacies. They can’t take up an honest debate unless there are rules in place that gives them any outs from being pressed when confronted with questions they can’t give truthful answers to.
Arguing in general is pointless.
Thats not to say that having a discussion about how to do something isn’t useful, of course it is. But beliefs, ideals? People dont get those from arguments. Refine them, maybe, but its extremely rare that someone changes their mind after defending their POV.
It is useful for the group of people that think. It can be helpful to really listen to a differing view, if coming from a thoughtful individual.
But arguing the existence of angels, shape of the earth, if blacks are whole people, or if women should be treated like individuals with volition, etc… not worth it.
It’s useful rarely. The person you’re arguing with has to have critical thinking skills and be open to new information and viewpoints though. I have changed views before.
Arguing in general is pointless.
To borrow a scene from “Thank You For Smoking”, it isn’t pointless but it is performative. The reason to argue is to get in front of a neutral or uninformed audience and state your case better than your opponent. Your goal is not to change your opponent’s mind. Your goal is to change your audience’s mind.
The DebateBro gambit is to raise personal exposure. The more you can get on TV and reiterate your views convincingly, the more people hear them and are swayed in your favor. You’re a salesman and the Debate is your opportunity to gather a crowd and entertain a public through conflict. But the goal is to sell your ideas to the crowd, not the target of your conversation.
Thats fair
Especially with cats, i found out.
Wait wait, are you saying it’s impossible to change people’s minds about cats, or impossible to change cats” minds?
I mean, maybe both lol
“Never try to outstubborn a cat “
Robert A. Heinlein, The Notebooks of Lazarus Long
Trying to keep my house clean. I have a three year old and a 2 year old. The only time it’s ever truly clean is late at night after they go to bed and I’m exhausted. The minute they get up it’s like a tornado goes through here.
Going to those places with all the claw machines and trying to come out ahead
There’s a spot in Houston’s Chinatown with a big gallery of claw machines. I think my success rate was better than 50%. Even got two at once on one try. But when its $2 to play and you’re winning toys that are worth less than $1…
Incidentally, they have a desk at the front where you can trade back your winning toys in bulk for bigger prizes. But they’re all random dodads you could get on Temu for a few bucks each. Like, you can turn in twenty stuffed animals for a cheapo touch pad. Basically a fancy kind of Chuck’e’Cheese ticket, when considered in bulk.
But if you’re looking for a dog’s chew toy or a way to bloat your 2-year-old’s stuffed animal war chest? Hard to beat the value in bulk.
Yeah the price to play and value of prizes makes it impossible to really come out a winner. But it’s fun!
If you really want to win, count the number of plays between wins of a particular machine. That used to work, anyway.
Figuring out that you can’t change anyone’s mind by arguing online
The only thing you achieve is a dopamine hit for being right
i’ve changed plenty of people’s minds online… but truth me told it was like 10 years ago before social media rotted their brains and everyone was living in hug boxes. and it was generally among my peer group of 20/early 30 somethings. it wasn’t teenagers or people in their 50s.
i used to be a part of tons of communities on reddit where people actually argued productively. but again, this was a decade ago. world was different, people were different. today people dismiss you based on the slightest disagreement.
hell on this site i have been told i’m a fascist for linking to government data and wikipedia. apparently facts are fascist now.
Talking with .ml users, turns out you really can’t fix stupid
their brains are so big that anyone who doesn’t agree with them about anything ever is a fascist.
Including other .ml users
the only good revolutionary a traitor to the revolution
Your mistake is letting it be framed as an argument at all. When trying to change the minds of the hard-headed, it’s much more in your favor to begin not with “this is what I think”, but “what do you think about…?” because the moment they feel like their values or ideas are being threatened is the moment they dig their heels in and start defending the same.
It’s a skill that takes a lot of time and effort to get right, but guiding them through challenging their own ideas on their own terms is just a lot easier to sell than telling them they’re wrong and explaining why. It doesn’t matter how well you know the subject you’re explaining or how effectively you present your information; if the person on the other end has identified you and your ideas as threats, then you have already almost certainly failed at challenging their beliefs.
Every job has a tool or tools that best get it done. I’m sure it depends on the where and when, but we don’t generally tend to bring weapons along while we’re building bridges because they’re simply not the tools needed for the job. Picking fights where you could otherwise have conversations is a rough and disappointing path if your intended destination is changing minds.
It’s a case to case thing but, at times, trying to convince people to act right and be moral simply because it’s our duty (and don’t get me started on trying to do the same but approaching it from a monotheistic angle, lol). Some people just simply don’t care and will always prioritise their whims over everyone else’s wellbeing, and knowing when to stop trying is necessary not to get too frustrated. 🤷😔
Making the people see that there is a lot of media out there, not just the same series that netflix shows to you or the 10 same bands that spotify recommends when you open the app, books, comics, videogames, movies, etc
Uhh you talking about yourself? And its pretty hilarious that you are mad about having rules for a debate? You need rules in debated so that no one will try to pull some bs. “Whataboutisms” logical fallacies (like ad hominem or false dichotomies), maintaining relevance to the topic, requiring evidence for claims, ensuring clarity and consistency in definitions and arguments…
I mean were there other specific rules they wanted that would “give them an out”?
Trying to argue with liberals.
They have some good ideas but have no realistic plan to implement them into society.
Tax billionaires.
Done.
Trying to clarify someone who misunderstood words, especially ones that are clear and concise. Either they have poor reading comprehension are responding to ‘what I really meant’ and in either case they will continue to do it over and over. I still try because of holding out hope that someone will realize they misread something as simple as ‘I like dogs’ to mean ‘I hate cats’ but I don’t think it has ever been successful.
I’ve found that arguing with conservatives isn’t about arguing with an individual. My father-in-law is a staunch libertarian, we go back and forth all the time. His positions change. My positions change. Yadda yadda.
But then the conversation ends, he gets back in his car, he turns on the Talk Radio, and he gets an earful of information and ideology that I never hear. And I throw on my leftie podcasts, getting a perspective he doesn’t hear. When we meet up again, we’ve had our brains saturated in information and ideas totally alien to one another. So the brief conversation we had a week ago doesn’t move our political alignment in any meaningful way.
you could both… not listen to partisan sources of info… they exist.
they however, wont’ be as easy to digest. because they won’t be telling you what you want to hear.
This, ESPECIALLY trying to convince someone like that to see another person as a human being. People like that, old people especially, do NOT care about other people
I mean, it comes back to Dunbar’s Number. We care much more for individuals in our immediate circle than for “people” in the abstract.
Trying to find honest/open people for friends, partners, employers. Or so it seems, 40 years in.
Then I think its time for you to look inwards
What if I did that, big time, and it made it worse, because nobody else looks inwards? Context: I very much live in the southern U.S., so maybe check yoself.
“If everywhere you go smells like shit, check your shoe.”
There are plenty of people who are open and honest and kind, even in the southern US.
Ahh, i see now why it seems to you like its impossible to find any good people to form any kind of relationships with :)
Hint: it’s not about where you live
Trying to argue in written English. Speaking is no problem but written stuff is just frustrating.
If the boss doesn’t like you for whatever reason you’re done.
Just get out of there, fighting their bullshit never works.
I feel this so hard.
