The biggest reason to knock off working on vacation or after hours is that it creates a false expectation on the the workload. If you can’t get it done during regular office hours, than that means your company needs more people or a process improvement.
If you are working these extra untracked hours, you are the problem. If you get rewarded for doing so, your company is toxic and will only expect more as you move up the ladder.
I told a manager that, if you work 60h a week, you don’t know how to do you job. I slipped in that hourly payment isn’t terrible either if you do so.
He never bothered to try to make me work “for free” ever again.
No one on there deathbed will say they wish they worked harder. They will regret all the other moments they missed because they were working too much.
Time is more than just money, it’s your life.
I read somewhere on a study of male americans on their deathbed, that they were 100% who regretted being in the office to much.
Can’t find the source though.
I’ll put my hand up and say that I will wish I worked harder. My job is simple and i work remote. If I was willing to work harder, I could either move up in the company or move to a competitor. That would get me more money. More money would help me to pay rent on a nicer place to live. And then with the new nice place, I could get the rest of my head in order. So I will absolutely go to my doom wishing I worked harder, put in more hours, and showed a high degree of dedication.
That’s what everybody thinks before they are on their deathbed, not so much when they’re actually there… The peace you’re looking for will most likely always be 2 steps ahead of you
Plus working hard is not necessarily correlated with being paid more, or being promoted.
The company could easily refuse you promotion if you’re considered irreplaceable.
I’ve worked at plenty of places which have made it fairly clear that the only way you can progress up in the company is to work out of hours. Extremely illegal business practice but they did it anyway.
One of the places was a law firm, because lawyers always think that they know how to break the law.
The biggest reason is because it’s not work time. End of.
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That does not magically appears in Europe, but the victories thanks to strong unionism and revolutionary unionism. The same that was directly attacked by the US government in the 1920’s
Fun fact: October Revolution haappened in Europe
Like can you gave examples
In France, the left government of the “Front Populaire” was forced by the unions to pass social laws that was not on their program, including 40h works per week, the 8h/day and the first paid holidays. The struggle of this unionize include general strike, demonstration and riot, and was sometimes repressed by the State.
The 40h weeks where already done in Italy (until the rise of the fascism), thanks to the red week. Following the death of 3 people during a demonstration against war and colonization, an expropriator general strike was made in nothern Italy by local unions. Those strike do not stop every production, but focus on the needs of the workers. For example, foods was still collectid and dispatch, including by trains, but without trade; Malatesta try to warm workers to not accept the bourgeoisie gift, but to achieve the socialization of the society. Central unions accept, and betray the revolution. That may explain why the Operaism came from Italy. And why we -anarcho syndicalist- do not trust unions with hierarchy
There is some other exemple, of cours in Spain with the CNT (20 millions people living in aracho syndicalist situation), in Ukraine with the joining force of mutualized farmers and industrial unions, and the IWW
I’m just one of countless victims of the launch of the cell phone in North American IT. This shit kills. Figurative and literally.
24 hour reachability is 24 hour work. Shit accumulates and all of a sudden you haven’t actually relaxed in 20 years and you get phantom phone vibrations.
Funny enough I wear a pager for 1/4 of my life now. But it’s totally fine because there’s on then off. Work days and not work days. Day and night. Work and life.
European cell phone adoption was about on par with the US. I don’t think the technology is completely to blame here.
Cell phones and wall street yuppies became a thing at relatively the same time, yuppy culture really threw work life balance out the window and changed US working culture. There was no European equivalent to the wall street yuppy.
Oh yeah we’ve got them. They’re called “young managers”.
I went on a business trip a couple weeks ago with 3 of them. Those mfers were working on the planes and in the airports, went straight to the remote office when we landed, worked until 7pm, and started their next day at 7:30am. The grind is real.
I’m a senior software developer. If I can’t fit everything I need to do in a regular work day, I either suck at my job or the job is managed by idiots.
Oh we’ve had grind culture for a long time. It just didn’t apply to finance yet.
Yeah, but I’m browsing Lemmy, not checking if I have received an email from work.
I was on call 24/7 for years. It’s been a long time since I had to deal with that (with a slide into a related career rather than changing careers) but I will never forget how terrible it was. I wasted what should have been my best years on that shit.
Now there’s only one person at work who has my number. He doesn’t call except for the one time I forgot to put my day off on the calendar. My work apps are paused at 5pm and all weekend. I only get alerts on my computer. However, I still twitch sometimes when my phone goes off after hours because it was a learned and deeply reinforced response for so many years.
I work as an electrician on a construction site, and one of the greatest perks of the job is that you leave it there. It’s not like you can work from home in the first place, and we don’t really have shifts. Everybody comes in at the same time and leaves at the same time, so you don’t have to bother with covering extra shifts.
That isn’t to say it’s a dream job of course, the perks are great, but the work itself will probably bite me in the ass later with health issues…
PPE buddy - personally protect yourself
Yup, worked enterprise IT for a global call center, and I was expected to answer my phone at a moments notice. Even if I was in bed with my wife, I was expected to stop and answer. All while being paid 50% below market. Since the overseas IT teams were worthless, getting called at 2am was common.
Were you paid properly for overtime?
Zero. It was salaried.
I’m salaried, but get paid per hour every time I’m on call.
In every country it’s a salary except america. And I guess you wasn’t.
When you can’t afford to move but you live on the Florida coast
You can’t tell, but that’s her living room…
Actualy we can tell because it’s wet
Sell their houses to whom, Ben? Fucking Aquamen?
She is paying rent for that.
I work for a company with both European and American employees. Even the European employees didn’t know how bad it was, and we work for the same employer. I hope I can live till retirement and not get diagnosed with cancer the day after like my Dad. Would be nice to do something those last years if there’s a planet left, I have some money and my body isn’t broken.
I’m getting closer to retirement age and still have no money. I am trying to pull off the miracle of having a paid off house by then though.
Andorra is based somehow
Because all European firms are situated around the globe and follow their vacations.
Not at all. We just have better working conditions. I get 28 days because it’s the law in my country.
I stopped going to dinner with my wife and her father when he’s in town. We will go to a restaurant and he’ll pull out his laptop and phone and start working, while vaguely listening to what we’re saying
I hope he was paying
Got to get gold in league somehow
Did you tell him that directly? I think you should.
My wife always brings it up. He’s one of those people who just does his own thing and doesn’t really care about anyone else’s plans or preferences, so that’s another reason I stopped going out with them. It could be a group of 10 and he wants Indian food but everyone else wants Mexican, so he compromises by having us all go to the Indian place… Where he can order his food in an Indian accent to the Indian waiter
Labour laws my dude! When the government protect people and not corporations. I can just ignore them for 60 days a year and it’s cheaper to accept than fire me
It’s not that simple when most people actively choose the cruelty.
It is that simple but it’s not that easy. Lots of problems have simple fixes that are extraordinarily difficult to implement for a whole host of reasons.
That doesn’t really change what you’re getting at though. I guess I was feeling pedantic. Feel free to ignore me 😊
Gonna go take a bath with my work laptop if anyone needs me.
Remember to plug it in, you don’t want to have to go scrambling for a charger in the middle of the meeting.
Was that the bad thing?
Shockingly yeah
But it does make your hair nice and frizzy.
Bad as in German?
Well I’ve just been paid to start drinking at 3:00 p.m. because apparently I haven’t taken enough holiday this year.
Sucks to be free I guess.
Trying to bring that European holiday energy to my American workplace 😤
You think I wait for holidays to be unavailable? :,D
For the last few years, I’ve been trying to get them to assign me at least someone part-time to learn my tribal knowledge. I’ve been writing documents and leaving copious notes in Slack canvasses to stakeholders. If something happens to me, they’ll be struggle-bussing it.
When I go on vacation, I’m still stuck for end-game support for p0 stuff. If production is down, I’ll stop what I’m doing, If they can’t make money, they can’t pay my salary. I’ll answer P1 questions off hours to an extent.
I don’t absolutely hate it. I’m paid well for the inconvenience but they’re playing with fire. I only go places that have some form of internet somewhere (doesn’t need to be everywhere) and I’m always within 15 minutes of grabbing my laptop.
That’s that me. But the company I work for is big enough that if they’re fucked, it looks worse on my bosses for only having one of me and no plan. So fuck that, off I go. I told them how badly things could go if someone grabbed my laptop, so that stays very safely behind too.
I really wish that Americans didn’t lump an entire continent with their own laws, cultures, and customs together.
Yes, the American attitude towards work sucks, but comparing Germany and the UK is like comparing New York with Kingston…
is like comparing New York with Kingston
Haha, the second I wrote it I thought “I bet there’s a Kingston in NY”, right after I was looking at places to rent in NY…
EU has delegated (?) acts mandating that every EU country transfers to local laws the “right to disconnect” with which every company needs to have a policy that prohibits them contacting their employees outside of work time (which ofc includes vacations) … except “in emergencies” (along with communication channel sequence) … which arent super defined but should be along the lines of preventing/avoiding damages in extraordinary situations.
And that employees can’t be punished for ignoring any communication outside of work hours in any case.
There is a delegated act on the way that may find its way into law, but it’s likely that it won’t get that far (like many EU laws) because they move a lot slower than local laws, and because not all countries agree (or agree to a larger extent). It’s also worth noting that the EU != Europe, so there will be several counties in and out that will have their own vested interests in passing/not passing this as law. Ireland is a big one, as they heavily rely on tech investment, whereas France will likely go above and beyond anything the EU will cook up. I believe Belgium in particular beat everyone to this.
I believe Belgium in particular beat everyone to this.
They have certain history.
No, delegated acts are law for all EU members directly, directives have to be implemented via local laws.
But EU bureaucracy works, it’s a process but it does the job, they work via public consolations with member states & private sectors (companies) on legislations, and it really shows (in amendments too - especially once in force practices show which areas need more considerations & which simplifications).
And the right to disconnect is what most countries had as some base legacy laws, but now it’s setup up in a common way.
via iuslaboris.com/laws-on-the-right-to-disconnect … seems updated, tho iirc Canada also has at least some form of this … eastern Europe is just way behind in lawmaking generally (it’s still work even if they don’t have opposition), not sure what’s with Germany.They do not have to be implemented. Each country in the EU is open to interpret a directive as they wish, as long as they reach a desired outcome that doesn’t fly against the directive. As such, directives are often referred to as “soft laws” because they’re loose enough that direct opposition is challenging. An EU regulation, on the other hand, needs to be added to national law.
I agree that EU bureaucracy works really well, mostly because it’s loose enough to avoid countries directly challenging it. Ireland being considered a low tax haven is a good example of this, in that a directive allowed them to meet tax requirements while also ensuring that they can house many F500 companies in a relatively small area of Dublin.
Afaik (but Im no legal expert) only EU ‘delegated acts’ are laws regardless of local law, so I assume right to disconnect isn’t this.
And no, directives as delegated acts can be very exact, with calculations/methodologies, public or non-public reporting systems, exact customer disclosures, etc.
I’m gonna guess the meme was made by a European, to make fun of us Murrikans.
I highly doubt it, since any European with sense will know that some countries have far different attitudes towards work than others, and complicated relationships between eastern and western Europe in regards to skilled trade work and immigration…
Funny
