I seriously doubt that unless they ramp up their shit a lot
The US Empire is dying, when it finally caves the spotlight will be on the constant genocide, plunder, and warmongering this empire did.
British Empire is dead and buried but most wouldn’t consider them worse than Nazi Germany
It’s merely vassalized, not dead and buried. The UK is still imperialist.
I’m not sure what that matters for the topic at hand.
The British Empire is neither gone nor forgotten.
The whole point was if they’re going to be viewed worse than Nazi Germany. Do you feel like there’s a point where the empire is gone and people will switch to thinking of it worse than Nazi Germany?
It hasn’t happened yet and I don’t see it happening tbh.
Depends on who you ask.
Is it possible that you can’t see the opinion changing because it is a very slow process that you are only living through a portion of? I’ve noticed more people mentioning the Bengal famine when Churchill is lionized, for example.
I don’t consider them as worse than Nazi Germany, but I consider them as pretty bad.
The massacres and famines in India comes to mind.
The wars in China to keep selling them opium.
And the fact that Nazi Germany had to hide the genocide from the general population, but when a Britiah military officer massacred civilians, they were bailed and cheered on by the general population is a nuance to the idea that the British Empire was better in every regard.
Give me any nazi atrocity and I can provide an example of the US doing it, and probably far worse and on a larger scale.
Killing 6 million jewish people?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_genocide_in_the_United_States - 4+ million Native Americans killed in a time when overall populations where much lower. If that number were scaled to the 20th century population it would be an order of magnitude higher.
At once, in a assembly way or specifically targeting Jewish people?
Plus it’s not like they were cool with those trying to escape Germany. And chance would have sided with Germany if Britain had fallen.
Killed an entire continent of peoples and enslaved millions of people from another one to make agricultural commodities.
Also during ww2 the US refused a ship of jews fleeing nazi germany and made them return.
They also won’t make anti-semitism illegal cause freeze peach, so US cops often protect white supremacist groups during protests from righteously outraged ppl. US cops also often recruit directly from those groups, and use them to carry out illegal things actions they don’t want to be responsible for. There isn’t enough space here to even get into the US’s anti-semitic past.
The US has done many horrible things, but that’s an awful list to go by. It mixes US involvement in the Philippines and the nightmare that was with “Israel killed someone and it’s likely the US was aware”, NATO involvement in Bosnia, and the US usage of radio and press releases to influence world opinion in its favor.
Specific incidents in Bosnia? Certainly. But on the face of it, the US joining with other nations to intervene in an ethnically driven civil war isn’t an attrocity. The US being aware of an Israeli operation isn’t a US attrocity. Propaganda isn’t an attrocity.
Hell, one entry literally seemed to be “American soldiers reported a South Korean war crime through appropriate channels, and this didn’t change US foreign policy”Mixing actual attrocities in with the benign or unrelated things just dilutes the actual attrocities, particularly when the preamble says to play up to emotional outrage.
Removed by mod
Even if you take the most extreme interpretation of US responsibility possible (eg adding another 1-1.7 million people for “luring” the Soviet Union into attacking Afghanistan), you don’t get to 25 million
Bullshit. One single US (+EU) policy, economic sanctions, has murdered 38 million in the past 50 Years and keeps murdering 500k yearly. One single policy.
Removed by mod
According to you, is there Apartheid in Venezuela? Hell, the US and Israel tried to keep the regime in South Africa going for as long as they could, so it doesn’t even make much sense. Not only that, but sanctions STILL cause the deaths of over 500k people a year. People like you and me. Stop defending imperialism and mass death.
Removed by mod
Yeah nazi Germany was around for 13 years ish. I’m not saying there’s no comparison, I’m just saying there’s no comparison, yet.
A huge amount of deaths are directly caused by US sanctions in numerous countries.
You should count thoseSimply trying to compare kill counts like history is call of duty only serves to dehumanize the victims.
In my view, just one aspect of the U.S. makes it the worst country ever: its role in the ecological crisis. The us is like three corporations in a trench coat, and a us corporation knew about anthropogenic climate change and kept that internal, and that’s just one instance of fuckery where there are plenty more. That’s the international elephant in the room which nobody seems willing to talk about. We need to also consider all the future atrocities as well as those in the past.
Removed by mod
Broad estimates of US war victims range up to 12 million (a liberal estimate), whereas the Nazis killed over 13 million through mass killings alone (eg the Holocaust + exterminated minorities). The Soviet Union alone lost 20 to 27 million depending on who you ask.
In addition to the 500k-millions of native peoples and hundreds of tribes the US systematically nearly eradicated, lets take just a few more examples.
- Vietnam: 1.5M killed
- Laos: 300k
- Iraq: 1M
- Indonesia: 500k-1M
- Korea: 500k
- Japan: 200k-1M in civilian bombings
And I haven’t even started on operation condor and latin america yet.
The real tragedy is that of the victims who got stuck in the middle between two doctrines hell-bent on global domination.
The case of Imperial Japan is equivalent to that of Nazi Germany. A fascist regime that saw millions intentionally slaughtered and worked to death across Asia.
Here are some links for reading more about the killings related to:
This popped up in my feed today:
Removed by mod
I hope you take a moment and reflect on why you insist on approaching comparative history in this way.
Maybe it’s because this is a comment thread about comparative history being performed in the same manner?
The post does not go into kill counts as a direct comparison. It simply states that the us will be remembered as worse than nazi germany. So no, that is not the reason. I’m calling out your behavior specifically as problematic.
Removed by mod
Sounds like they are in good company, millions is millions, but I’d argue America has committed more genocides.
And US America is still going, the worst is yet to come
The US nearly completely wiped out the indigenous people who lived there
When European settlers arrived in the Americas, historians estimate there were over 10 million Native Americans living there. By 1900, their estimated population was under 300,000. Native Americans were subjected to many different forms of violence, all with the intention of destroying the community. In the late 1800s, blankets from smallpox patients were distributed to Native Americans in order to spread disease. There were several wars, and violence was encouraged; for example, European settlers were paid for each Penobscot person they killed. In the 19th century, 4,000 Cherokee people died on the Trail of Tears, a forced march from the southern U.S. to Oklahoma. In the 20th century, civil rights violations were common, and discrimination continues to this day.
Multiple millions of people were captured in Africa and sold as slaves as well
Removed by mod
The vast majority of these people died before the US even conceptually existed.
Disgusting take, acting as if genocide was not colonial policy. You desperately need to read Roxanne Dunbar-Ortiz - an indigenous people’s history of the US.
Thanks for the recommendation comrade, I’ll add it to my list
Removed by mod
The vast majority of these people died before the US even conceptually existed.
Germany didn’t write the holocaust out of their history like Americans did.
To mock the line I keep seeing in this thread full of apologists: Nazi Germany wasn’t quite there yet. They would have been as bad as the US if they had time.
Removed by mod
Nazi Germany literally modeled their society off of the United States from Jim Crow apartheid to the frontier genocide.
You’re wrong. It’s not a contest. If they had been allowed to ‘let things that happened a hundred years ago fade away’ like they were planning THEN it would be a contest because they would have succeeded in creating a European America.
The project of Nazi Germany is literally the same project as Israel is literally the same project as America
It is exactly one thing: Settler colonialism and the only difference is the conditions of when and where and who. But that only goes as far as the particulars.
Removed by mod
They also partook in widespread ecocide to starve the natives. They deliberately killed every buffalo they could and let them out to rot.
Gosh, I guess we should talk about the British then as well.
https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2022/12/2/how-british-colonial-policy-killed-100-million-indians
The US would be better off if it becomes a socialist/communist country during the Great Depression - if any of you wanted an idea on what that would be like, read the althistory story “Reds! A Revolutionary Timeline”.
More like the roman empire.
Why did the Romans fail? Lets see… Uh no, ohh no, wtf this has so much in common.
Nevermind, history doesn’t like copypasta, let’s keep the first one and forget about USA.
Why did the Romans fail?
I remember learning that the Romans fell because they were too gay and debauched and woke, so they lost their manly vigors.
Nevermind, history doesn’t like copypasta
I suppose its worth noting that the Roman Empire lasted centuries (millennia, if you see the Byzantine/Ottoman Empire as a continuation of Roman history). The UK is more comparable than the US, which flourished after WW1 and made it barely a century before fumbling.
But also, the book is hardly closed on the US as an empire. China, India, Persia, Rome, France… they all had their ups and downs.
I remember learning that the Romans fell because they were too gay and debauched and woke, so they lost their manly vigors.
manly vigors are the reason why being gay is so much fun. lol
Hitler invaded Poland to plunder the country to stave off another impending economic collapse of Germany, thanks to his runaway excessive government spending. In that sense, he was distracting the Germans from being revealed on how bad of an administrator he was. Trump invaded Venezuela and wants to annex Greenland to distract people from the fact that he is a pedophile. And that’s a helluva weirder reason to go to war for distraction…
The economy built just to wage war needed a war, that’s the reasoning you’re going with for why Hitler was expansionary???
Trump doesn’t care if people think he’s a pedophile he just wants power and people giving him attention. Or just to have a landmark for himself, see putting name on anything.
Most people don’t realise Nazi Germany was on a brink of another economic collapse before Poland was invaded.
But economics was not why they started wars it was just to grow and expand. The nazis only used we’ll improve the economy to gain power and build a war machine.
Which is also why it was a shit economy not because of the government spending
The Nazis remilitarized which spurred short term economic growth, which was then used to pay for the extremely generous social welfare benefits to the Germans, who were appreciative of this because they were deeply traumatised by hyperinflation of the Great Depression. But this excessive government spending is turning the German wallets inside out; and the plunder of conquered nations gave Nazi Germany some needed cash injection to keep their economy going. If you don’t believe me, look up Hjalmar Schacht, Hitler’s economic minister, who warned the fuhrer that the state’s finances were nearly out in the late 1930s. Schacht’s savvy financial acumen had kept the Nazi German economy running longer than it should have been. He was dubbed the “dark wizard of finance”, partly because his confiscation of Jewish assets, before the war, yielded the Nazis much needed finances.
Benefits to the citizens isn’t the issue is was them funneling it entirely to the war machine effort, like how they turned funds for cars for the people into tank and military vehicles instead of the actual cars.
It was always an economy built on playing cards but not because of spending to people but only investing in the military.
Don’t overthink it, US economy isn’t that great either.
Yeah pretty sure they dgaf about the files. And everyone knows what’s inbthem already.
Economists said that Kamala was a better choice but people thought otherwise.
Less obviously stupid, but she had a low bar to clear in Trump.
Meanwhile people in US:
Fascists gonna fascist i guess 💁♂️
Not a lot of people think it’s fine, but nobody a tually has a clue what to do/ doesn’t want to start it
The solution is to organize. PSL already organized protests across dozens of major cities, and is constantly recruiting.
i’ve learned the hard way that some nuero-divergent behaviors (like mine) sow distrust within neuro-typical people who won’t let you help organize w them out of instinctual fear.
the last times i tried with the greens; lgbtq center in san jose; and the gmhc in new york; they had me spending the overwhelming majority of my time picking up garbage in parking lots and roads by myself.
the last 2 times were galling because i was a software engineer at the time w 10+ years of experience in IT and offered my services as a response to their advertised needs for IT & web developers/admins; yet i was only picking up garbage alone 95% of the time.
That’s a terrible way to be treated. I hope you have a better experience if you ever choose to try again.
fortunately my neurodivergence makes me forget A LOT so it’s likely that i will try again. lol
Haha I relate to that. I recently started applying to something, got hung up on a question, and realized I had started the process already and gotten hung up on the same spot
story of my life lol.
that’s why i put myself into that volunteering situation again despite the bitter taste of the first one and also why i been trying to finish a book series by s.m. sterling for the last 25 years; every time i try, i run into hand written notes from me in the past telling me that i need to read the previous book to remember what’s going on.
I’m sorry to hear that, comrade. Lack of party discipline in how neurodivergent comrades are treated is a sign of serious problems witu the org itself.
We’re not there yet, and I hope we don’t go that far.
Europeans are overreacting, and Americans (particularly our Democrat representatives) are underreacting. That’s where we are at right now.
It’s a weird thing to see people who don’t know how the US works flip out, while also watching tons of elected representatives pretend nothing is going on. Then there’s the MAGA people… Holy shit are they delusional.
Honestly, with the lack of democratic party strength I’m honestly starting to wonder if everyone who is supporting change isn’t just put into the shit list social media algorithm so that they just can’t get any traction or coalition going. Like we are so sensitive to what we see on social media it honestly wouldn’t surprise me to learn that all the family support they would normally have is eroded by depressed family members who have just been destroyed by the algorithm. In 2011 Facebook was showing how they could alter people’s feed to change peoples moods based on what they are being shown and in what order. That was a long time ago and they stopped publishing their findings. Who knows how sophisticated they have been able to be now. Like why is Walz stepping down? He wasn’t involved in the fraud, why is he giving up the fight?
I wouldn’t say Europe are overreacting. This particular post, “worse than nazi Germany”, yes, but atm they are being a bit too complicit in things like the US bombing and kidnapping the head of a foreign nation…
However the US isn’t literally building camps with the explicit purpose of mass murder and genocide. Don’t get me wrong, they’re still doing a lot of nazi and atrocious shit, but distinguishing the nuance is important.
the US isn’t literally building camps with the explicit purpose of mass murder and genocide
This is a complete mischaracterization of how camps began and evolved in nazi germany while also downplaying the horror of ice detention centers and mass deportations to foreign concentration camps. I’m sure you’ve heard of CECOT. Ever heard this quote?
“We, as the Security Cabinet, will ensure that the penalties are high enough so that none of those who enter CECOT will ever leave walking; they will only be able to leave in a coffin”
But hey, that’s just coming from the Minister of Justice and Public Security of El Salvador. If tens of thousands of people are condemned to die there, is that not mass murder? Keep in mind, this, from the us government’s perspective, is a service they are paying for. Also, this is only one of many arrangements the us has for mass deportation. Please keep in mind, the nazi camps were certainly not all in Germany.
Basically, you’re blurring a whole lot of lines here with your comment.
Israel is way ahead
Israel is downstream of the US. That’s like saying Texas is worse.
deleted by creator
lol worse than Nazi Germany?
Kids got no perspective nowadays if you thinking this is anything like that
Yeah nazi germany is definitely worse, they killed a bunch of WHITE PEOPLE, there is no worse sin than that.
Nazi germany explicitly tried to copy the US project (lebensraum evicting eastern europe, rather than manifest destiny evicting native americans), and failed.
The only reason nazi germany is demonized more than the US, is because they lost. The US has committed far more atrocities, and on a larger scale.
Based on the reports of torture and abuse out of, “Alligator Alcatraz,” (God I fucking hate having to use that stupid fucking name), we are certainly heading there. They described torture techniques similar to CECOT, including denial of medical treatment. We don’t know what’s happening inside ICE detention facilities, but an alarming number of detainees are dying. We just kidnapped a sovereign head of state, and Trump is actively talking about doing the same to other nations.
Things don’t start at the end. There were six years between Hitler’s appointment as Chancellor and the invasion of Poland. It was five years between the opening of the first concentration camps and the mass interment of Jews, and another three years before they opened the gas chambers in Auschitz. If anything, 2025 has shown that this administration is moving faster than the Nazis, and the midterms will probably be our last chance to purge these people (including the Democrats who refuse to fight them) from our government before they kill what’s left of our democracy.
If the Democrats refuse to fight, then the midterms don’t mean shit. We also can’t ignore previous administrations that built the camps and deported in record numbers. The us has always been a democracy for the capitalists only. It’s a white supremacist settler colony, and we can’t scapegoat Trump just because he is like the living avatar of us cultural ideals in the worst way. Even if Democrats somehow have all three branches in '28 and somehow unfuck the supreme court, we cannot consider reform as an end in itself. They are still capitalists who will concede very little, if anything, to the people.
There’s a reckoning coming for Democrats as well. Their poll number are still rock bottom in their own base. Primaries are coming for Torres and Jefferies, and it’s basically assumed Schumer won’t have a Minority (or, dare to dream, Majority) position in the next Congress. Despite the entire Democratic establishment lining up against him, Mamdani won. I think, with a little luck, Democratic Socialism will be the norm by '28 (though they’ll probably call it, “Getting back to our New Deal roots,” or some shit).
Democratic Socialism will not be the norm because the Democratic party will not allow that to happen. What about recent party history gives you hope that this could occur? I find this hope to be naive.
Polling shows capitalism is on a downswing while socialism is on an upswing, especially within the Democratic party. Socialism is losing its status as a boogeyman. Beyond that, Mamdani’s Democratic Socialist platform is broadly popular across the country, and even as voters are voting heavily against Republicans in special elections, the democrats are still at historically low favorability levels.
Again, when I say Democratic Socialism will be the norm, I’m not saying that the majority of Democrats will identify as Democratic Socialists. I’m saying thst the majority of Democrats will adopt the policies of the Democratic Socialists or be primaried by candidates that do (and, again, they’ll probably frame it in the context of the New Deal rather than socialism). But the NYC mayoral election has made it clear that the corporate Democrats can no longer control the narrative, and I think it’s just the beginning.
Those polls select from us adults who are registered democrats. What makes you think the party elites give a shit what they think? I know it’s not past precedent. Democrats typically use polling to justify not changing things. The way they fought Mamdani clearly demonstrates this. One anomalous Mamdani cannot reasonably justify hope in electoral reform. Capital will do all it can to extinguish Socialism as it always does. This system was made by and for capitalists and cannot be used as the sole means of establishing a socialist system.
What makes you think the party elites give a shit what they think?
As I said, I think they’ll be out on their ass. Schumer will not get another term in leadership. Jefferies might, since he kept the House together on shutdowns, but his polling is still underwater and his days are numbered. The rank and file will go where the wind blows. We’ve already seen this when normie-centrists started dumping AIPAC money because of their base. I’m sure leadership will fight it until they’re ousted, and donor class will pivot to Republicans, but the average Dem politician would rather adopt a Democratic Socialist platform than lose their seat.
One anomalous Mamdani cannot reasonably justify hope in electoral reform.
Platner is also polling ahead or Mills despite the whole, “having a Nazi tattoo,” thing. Kat Abughazaleh is in a dead heat with Biss despite Biss having the establishment backing. Richie Torres is getting a DSA primary challenge after he had to drop his bid for governor against Hochul, and Hochul herself had to pivot to supporting Mamdani (she saw how the wind was blowing). There’s also Donavan McKinney primarying Shri Thanedar in Michigan, but I’m not following that one closely enough to say much about it. The point is, it’s not just Mamdani, there are several strong DSA or DSA-aligned challengers that are doing well.
Capital will do all it can to extinguish Socialism as it always does. This system was made by and for capitalists and cannot be used as the sole means of establishing a socialist system.
OK, well, the entire philosophy of Democratic Socialism is blending public ownership with heavily regulated private businesses using the current system of democratic institutions. If you think that Democratic Socialism is impossible, fair enough, you’re entitled your opinion and I’m not really interested in debating political theory. But even if you’re right, and Democratic Socialism will be a failure, I don’t think that means that the Democrats won’t adopt it.
I am not sure whether we need a peeing contest who did/is doing worse. The immense suffering endured by individuals are uncomparable imho.
That being said, I recommend everyone to read “The Banality of Evil” by Hannah Arendt and to review the social experiments that were conducted to understand how average Germans were able to commit genocide. The dark truth is: you are likely able, too.
We are all responsible to prevent this.
You have no fucking perspective. As I wrote below half of my family is from a country where US imperial troops are responsible for the deaths of over a million people, destroying one of the oldest centers of knowledge and education, and taking a country previously known for training first-class doctors and sending them around the world to train to a place where people are struggling to survive with a literacy crisis. We already think they’re as bad. If you don’t think they are close to Nazi Germany you sound like white supremacist who doesn’t view people outside US/EU as humans.
Sure. Just like how we all villainise Rome, the British empire, the Khanates, and other violent militaristic cultures of conquest… and, of course, no one would look back fondly on governments that enacted policies of hate and murdered their citizens and others… Oh, wait… /s
I mean, people look back fondly on the Nazis. It just makes them shitty people.
we absolutely do villainize the british empire wtf are you talking about. it’s only really second to the us fascist empire.
A certain subset of people do. There are still lots of Brits who not only don’t hate the idea of empire but think it should come back. There are even people in the former British colonies that romanticise that history. There are people now, and will continue to be, who look at the history of empires, conquerors, and tyrants, and cheer for the ‘great men of history.’ Maybe one day that might change, but it’s going to be a while, if ever.
that doesn’t make the us empire any less villainous
The point was not that empire is not villainous, simply that the ‘history will not be kind to’ sentiment is mostly pointless ressentiment. All it does is mollify the slave with the pretense they will get their reward after death and the oppressor will get their punishment. The empire does not care. The ones that care about history will write the history they want the world to remember after their death and live the life of the wealthy conqueror until they do.
i get what you mean now, you are right.
The rest of the uk think those people are knuckle dragging cunts.
They got away with Latin America coups, Vietnam, Cambodia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and many more, they will got away with Venezuela and Palestine. In the end who can make them stop? The world is a jungle and in the jungle the law of the strongest prevails.
I’ve never felt more helpless. What do I do?
Join a mass worker organization, like the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Having people dedicated to activism, trained in doing so, with organizational structure in place, is the most effective way for the working classes to unify and wield their collective strength.
Arm yourself first and foremost. Get to know your neighbors. Work in your communities for change. Watch what you post and where. They will come after people posting anti regime on social media.
Build communities with like minded people in real life. Join groups like unions and keep an eye out for local politics.
deleted by creator
We need socialism
Replacing a violent country with the system that historically always led to military dictatorships does not sound like a recipe for success.
You don’t need socialism, you need northern European style capitalism
Socialism has always led to working class control of the state. It’s a recipe for the uplifting of the working classes. European style capitalism relies on imperialism to fund their safety nets, and as imperialism is weakening so too are the safety nets, which is why austerity politics and the far-right are on the rise in Europe.
Please, do tell me more about… let’s say… the luxembourgish imperialism. Did they conquer any new nation recently?
Luxembourg’s role within western imperialism is as a tax haven. It’s a micronation that gets wealthy off of finance capital and being a glorified and legalized money laundering scheme.
So imperialism is… not taxing people? That’s a very fluid take on it
No? Imperialism is as I already laid out for you, a process by which the global north, dominated by monopoly finance capital, exports capital to the global south to super-exploit foreign labor for super-profits. Luxembourg’s role in that international system is as a foreign tax haven for the imperialists.
imperialism, state policy, practice, or advocacy of extending power and dominion, especially by direct territorial acquisition or by gaining political and economic control of other areas.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/imperialism
You know you can just look up these thing right?
Not taxing your citizens, is not imperialism. Luxembourg is not an imperialist country.
The process that you’re describing is called free trade. As soon as the global south doesn’t want to partake in this trade, they can stop. And Luxembourg wouldn’t have anything to say on that matter.
This guy doesn’t know what socialism is and is too scared of bogeymen to learn.
Removed by mod
I’ve been! Met some lovely people. Saw some beautiful places. You should try leaving your home city just once in your sheltered closeted little life.
The world is not what Fox News is telling you it is.
Lmao, I am European. Wtf would I need to watch Fox news for?
Sorry bud but painting a stereotype is not really defending your position. Did CNN tell you that that was OK?
Well I figured you were either some dipshit from the flyover counties or, far more likely, an employee of a troll farm. I figured I’d give you the benefit of the doubt.
Oh yeah, all very good points. Maybe you can also call me a sexist fascist bigoted incel, that’ll really show off your knowledge on the subject
Eastern Europe hasn’t been socialist for 3 decades. What you see is the devastation of capitalism and western imperialism plundering formerly functional states.
You could argue that they’ve never been socialist, because like every other attempt it just devolved into military dictatorships. The effects of that attempt are still present today. Take any political or social map of Germany and you can still see where the old borders were
No, you cannot make that argument, because it isn’t true. Socialist states have had the working classes in control of the state, and this is proven with hard evidence from the opening of the soviet archives confirming leftist documentation and reporting within the SU. As for the former GDR, the communists were purged in show trials by the west, which never genuinely de-Nazified. That’s why there’s a far-right reaction there.
Mate, even the majority of socialists disagree with this view, let alone someone who is critical of socialism.
The USSR was a dictatorship full of nepotism and corruption, where you could get jailed for the dumbest reasons, ranging from being gay to practicing karate. None of these rules were established by workers and all of them were created by the bureaucracy.
The workers were the people who ended the USSR
Removed by mod
The last anything anyone needs is European anything. European capitalism brought the world the USA, two world wars, and imperialism. They’re on a 80 year experiment of having a small amount of welfare but it has never been enough and that is about to end when they remilitarize
Colonialism was not capitalism, there’s nothing capitalist about taking prisoners and stealing land for government charted monopolies.
Meanwhile northern Europe has the highest standard of living, healthcare quality, accessibility and life expectancy. And all of it is being paid for with the spoils of capitalism
You’re seriously going to tell me that Victorian imperialism wasn’t capitalism? That the rape of India wasn’t capitalism? That the Belgian congo wasn’t operated by capitalist investors? You’re ahistorical and an idiot. You think the Algerian colonies weren’t operated by European capitalists? Nazi Germany is a great example of European capitalism as well.
Your highest standard of living is based on capitalist exploitation of the entire world and the working class. Your sick, violent, white supremacist countries are about to flush it’s social democracy directly down the toilet to go to war with Russia too. Guns or Butter.
You’re delusional.
Talk with some actual capitalists, and they’ll all tell you that their core values are pretty much the opposite of whatever you’re describing here.
Capitalism is simply the most successful system in the world, so it’s an easy target for edgy teens who want something to blame for their failures.
But please do tell me how I’m exploiting the world, or how I’m violent or racist. Maybe you can call me an fascist incel so the word salad has all the cool things kids say nowadays
Brazil follows the great northern European style of capitalism and this shit doesn’t work if you don’t exploit the global south.
Brazil? Their maximum tax bracket isn’t even half of what I’m currently paying in taxes, and I’m not even in the highest bracket
Dude’s on another planet xD
wtf 💀
I speak with liberals all the time, you’re again confusing the values espoused by liberalism to justify capitalism with the actual material system as it exists in the real world. As for imperialism, it functions as follows:
-The presence of monopolies which play a decisive role in economic life.
-The merging of bank capital with industrial capital into finance capital controlled by a financial oligarchy.
-The export of capital as distinguished from the simple export of commodities.
-The formation of international monopolist capitalist associations (cartels) and multinational corporations.
-The domination and exploitation of other countries by militaristic imperialist powers, now through neocolonialism.
-The territorial division of the whole world among the biggest capitalist powers.
The global north, Europe included, uses this export of capital to super-exploit foreign labor for super-profits. It also engages in unequal exchange, where the global south is prevented from moving up the value chain in production, allowing the global north to charge monopoly prices for commodities produced in the same labor hours.
Y’know, I was expecting a word salad of being called an incel, instead this is just a word salad of calling everything a monopoly. Half of the things you point to here are governmental actions, not capitalism. Capitalism is an economic system, not an ideology, it doesn’t control what the government should or shouldn’t do. And none of it even relates to the topic at hand, which was colonialism.
And financial oligarchies are 100% just a hallucination, prettied up in fancy words so it sounds like you’re making an argument. You do not need permission from an oligarchy to make financial transactions.
If the global north would stop trading with the global south, to “fix” this supposed exploitation, people like you would be the first to start crying about how an embargo on the south is preventing them from moving up the value chain in production. There is no logic here, just accusations. You have nothing to show but an attitude
The only word I have for you is dipshit. Fuck off.
Colonialism was absolutely an aspect of capitalism. You are correct that these high standards of living are paid for by capitalism, just that it’s stolen value from the labor of the global south through imperialism, not through European labor.
Private property and freedom of association are core aspects of capitalism, colonialism did none of those things. Capitalism didn’t arrive in the colonies until the colonists left.
Slaves were considered private property in the USAmerica, right?
Was USAmerica a colony during their civil war?The US Empire is still a settler-colony, to be clear.
Private property alone doesn’t make capitalism, by that logic the ancient civilzations of egypt and sumer would already be capitalist. Capitalism is a collection of ideas, from the right to own private property to freedom of association, none of which is compatible with slavery.
Which is a big reason why the capitalist countries were the first to outlaw slavery.
You’re confusing values espoused by liberalism with the consequences of economies dominated by private property. Colonialism was driven by capitalism, and justified by liberalism. Further, I am talking about ongoing imperialism, not just colonialism.
just what exactly is liberal about invading foreign countries and submitting them to production quota’s at the threat of death?
Removed by mod
Removed by mod
I don’t care what history has to say about us to high schoolers in 2060, I’m living in a country that will eventually hang me for posting this. The world needs to get it’s shit together and stop this train.
If you live in the US Empire, you can be a part of the movement to end it. Especially with the Empire’s recent aggression against Venezuela, now is a good time to get active! Join an org like the PSL! They’re already organizing anti-war protests, and even had one on Saturday.
I dont mean to detract from your point at all here… In fact, PSL is my favorite org in recent memory, but I have yet to join out of fear.
I hope this comment doesn’t come across as FUD because I certainly don’t want to steer people away from organizing, but… do you ever fear that getting your name on paperwork in one of these orgs could jeopardize your safety? Shit is happening so fast in America right now that I am straight up afraid of organizing. Im thinking of a scenario where PSL headquarters gets raided, and everyone who shows up on an active members list gets shipped to El Salvador.
Kind of a disjointed reply, but I guess all I really wanted to say is that shit is getting really scary right now, and I’m not even part of a vulnerable group. I’m afraid.
Maybe the answer is that, yes, joining a leftist organization during fascist descent does incur massive risks, but that is the necessary burden that American leftists must take for the sake of the people we are oppressing? Maybe now is the time to be brave?
Your fears are 100% valid. PSL has a strong public-facing presense as its own shield, it’s the honesty and integrity of PSL that keeps the public more on its side. However, there’s also the Action Network, an informal, secondary level of membership with minimal requirements that means you just volunteer when the opportunity arises, and aren’t a disciplined cadre. This is also a valid form of organizing, both the mass organization and the dedicated cadre are necessary!
there’s a STRONG trend of black and brown social media influencers warning people not to get involved if they have too much melanin for american standards and learning about the black panthers and the night of the long knives (coupled with my anecdotal experiences with white-passing family members) makes me think that they’re right.
some small part of me hopes that my contributions to the greens and psl are so long ago that that i’m no longer on their rosters.
I mean, the Black Panthers murdered by the state are heroes in my eyes, ya know? That seems like a strange argument. As bleak as it is to mention, I feel I must point out that having only the fear of future violence while others must face violence presently is a privilege. The good thing is that getting involved in organizing is also a privilege, the other side of the coin I guess you could say. Way I think about it, you’re gonna live with the fear of state violence already, so the fear from organizing is marginal, possibly negligible.
I’d rather be alive than be your hero. Black and brown people in the US already face violence without voluntarily painting targets on their backs. If people want to stick their necks out, good for them. But it’s kinda ballsy to try to shame black and brown people in the current USA for avoiding violence from some “place of privilege “
Alright. Privilege is still relative. Being defensive is not going to change that.
The fear of “sticking your neck out” is still very individualistic thinking. The goal is to learn and organize so WE can stick our necks out together. My lionizing of former martyrs is not an attempt to shame you. I still think that “don’t be like the people who actually induced change because they were martyred” is a terrible take.
I’m sorry you have experienced that, comrade. I can only say that the goal is such a society where this kind of bullshit will be a thing of the past.
thanks, but don’t be; i’m convinced that i would be yet another liberal doomscrolling my life away, embittering myself further by the day because of the deep ignorance from the western propaganda like it is for some of my siblings/cousins/nephews/neices who turn to alcohol, drugs and other self destructive coping mechanisms.
i’m convinced that my dark skin; my queerness; and my nuero-divergence have forced me to develop tools that have proven themselves useful in thwarting the asshattery that life in this late stage capitalist world throws at me.
That’s the indomitable human spirit at work, we develop the tools we need. We may not live in a just world, but we live in one where we can and will win.
If that day comes, do you really think that the absence of your name on a roster is going to stop them? Obedience in advance only teaches authority what it can get away with. The capabilities of authority generally are much less far-reaching than what they lead us to believe. Oppression breeds resistance and struggle, whereas the state would have us believe in the fantasy of unilateral control and suppression of dissent.
You owe it to yourself to study revolutionary history beyond just the most shocking events that scare you away from organizing. In the words of the late assata shakur; It is our duty to fight. It is our duty to win. We must love each other and support each other. We have nothing to lose but our chains.
This is the sole thing that keeps me down. My spouse is a first generation American with brown skin in a Republican state. If any attention is drawn to us, her, her parents, her autistic brother, the lady that cuts my hair, the grocery we visit down the road, half the parents in our neighborhood, I’m the only person in my community that isn’t currently represented in the ICE victim pool. If I rock the boat every single person I care about gets a plane trip to a foreign prison.
Every day it gets worse. Eventually, it won’t be plane rides, it will be ditches. Even if I don’t attract the attention of the government, it’s cultists yell racial slurs in as they drive lifted trucks past my community. They gnaw at the bit for a chance to cut loose and remove this stain from their white city.
I’ve seen the local protests, 10 people with signs on a busy intersection a mile from the courthouse. The police point and laugh as commuters throw drinks at them from their cars for thinking that human rights belong in a red state.
What the fuck do I do? What can I, standing here, actually do to change anything? There isn’t a single action that I can take that does not threaten to burn down my community and leave my child an orphan, and even still I’m here asking how I can solve this problem.
You’re represented even if you don’t look brown. I can’t find the story in the deluge of other similar stories, but they arrested a San Diego cop’s/sheriff’s British wife, and deported her. They were basically done getting her citizenship, and had been working on it for years at that point. Of course the idiot voted for Trump, not that it matters in CA.
I say I’m not represented because my family has been getting kicked about in these parts since the 1800s. As far as I’ve seen in the news they haven’t arrested the straight, white, male, American, partners of all the people they pick up.
Not to say I’m safe, they’ll make their way to traitors like me eventually, but right now I don’t get the luxury of getting black bagged with my wife in a traffic stop, I just get to sit at home while the life we built falls apart.
Organizing is the only way to protect them. If you do nothing, and it continues on this path, you will not be safe, regardless of your actions. If we can all join together and stop this NOW we can prevent that.
My wife is here on a green card. My employers are as well. Because they are fellow humans, I will die to defend them. I will fight tooth and nail. I will not be cowed by a fat orange blob who diddle kids. I will not be frightened by a mob of egomaniacal imbeciles. Their attempts to emulate fascists of the past is sloppy and will fail if put to any sort of test.
Help me to break them.
This is great, this is what I like to here, but where is the how? What do I actually do to make a difference? That’s the part everyone stops at and I’m beating every bush in this county to try to shake loose the one persone with a clue.
I am going to be volunteering and trying to network. Find like minded people. I really don’t have answers beyond burn down town hall.im sorry.
You bring up my first intuition on the matter. If the federal government wanted to destabilize counter movements, they most certainly would take three approaches: (1) propagandize the organizations leading those movements, (2) attack the organizations leading those movements, and (3) attack the members of the organizations leading those movements. Look no further than the history between the US and their workers unions.
However, this perspective is unfair. It doesn’t quite justify the alternative, because the alternative seems to be: “don’t join the organization, alleviate the risk from yourself.” That’s just inaccurate positing from the fears mentioned here. The truth is, doing nothing has risks that you can’t predict. Though, you can approximate your risks by asking yourself: “what if I was on a green card right now?” Doing that, at least, lets you view the problem as though it’s already at your doorstep — and this gives justice to the inherent risk we all face during a fascist takeover. Fascists only start with minorities, as they develop the infrastructure necessary to target anyone they please.
deleted by creator
I get your point and share your worries, but I ended up concluding that I will regret more aiding the descent to fascism than being a casualty of it.
Think of all the people that survived Nazi Germany while being a collaborator and seeing all the horrors their cowardice helped occur.
I don’t think those people would have happy lives after that, I know I wouldn’t.
Furthermore, I believe that if I don’t act now when is somewhat safe, I will act latter down the line and would definitely get killed.
It’s your choice.
If you live in the US Empire, you can be a part of the movement to end it
That’s objectively bad messaging. ‘End the US Empire’ is so trivial to paint as purely anti-American. Not only will fail to win over more than a tiny fraction of people, but anyone part of it will be easily discredited
How would ‘end the US Empire’ ever be a popular idea in America? Even assuming it is a moral platform, it can only ever be a fringe idea in America
It isn’t objectively bad messaging. The millitary budget is through the roof while social services are gutted. War in Venezuela and the genocide in Palestine are very unpopular. The faith in a system dominated by late-stage imperialism is declining, and correct identification of rising cost of living with stagnant wages makes sense when connected to the US Empire’s decay. Shifting from an imperialist economy to one where humanity is the master of capital, win-win cooperation is the basis of international diplomacy and trade, and a brighter future based on common humanity is deeply appealing to the average Statesian. Maybe not 40 years ago, but conditions are rapidly changing.
Any socialist organizing will be painted as anti american. Who gives a shit? The fascists call the neolibs radical, marxist, far left, anti american, you name it, despite the fact that they’re two sides of the same shitty capitalist coin.
Your comment rhymes with telling a child not to stand up to their bully because the bully will call them names. Even a child would answer with, “but they do that already!”
End the US Empire’ is so trivial to paint as purely anti-American
Being anti-american is good and people are gonna need to rip off that bandaid
I’m going to predict the future exactly as it will happen: either the US empire is ended and humanity survives it’s inevitable fall or the empire drags us all down with it in a nuclear fireball. Pick one.
I’m with your prediction if you are willing to include the nuclear fireball being a hail mary to stop climate change via nuclear winter (ik the concept is debated but I don’t know the physics)
The world needs to get its shit together and stop this train.
No. Americans need to get their shit together and stop this train. Fix your own fucking problems.
The same is true of the US Empire’s vassals, like Canada. The sooner the west transitions to socialism and away from late-stage imperialism, the sooner the world can heal.
If other countries stood up to his tariffs last year maybe our house and Congress would have stood up to him sooner before it was too late. The whole world bent a knee to him.
The whole world? LMAO
The whole WESTERN world bent their knee, a lot of countries refused that shit.
Ah so it’s everyone else’s fault that Americans are gutless? That makes a lot of sense to me that you would think that. Countries enacted counter tariffs, which is standing up to tariffs.
US: [taxes its own people]
ThePantser: “Why does the whole world allow this?”
America has it’s shit together, that’s why we’re able to build a concentration camp over night, why we have a pedophile in charge and why we can just casually kidnap a head of state without anyone batting an eye. This isn’t morons blundering around, this is winning a chess tournament by clubbing the rest of the competition to death. It won’t get better if no one tells us to stop.
Meanwhile, I get reminded every day that it’s my fault personally for letting a nation I had no choice in being part of turn into something so disgusting. As if I need only to get off my couch and blast my way through these blundering Nazis like an 80’s action film. I’m told to protest and participate as if my lack of presence was the sole thing that held back the marches and my congressman hadn’t blocked my phone number for calling to complain.
As mentioned below, my spouse is a first generation American with brown skin in a Republican state. If any attention is drawn to us, her, her parents, her autistic brother, the lady that cuts my hair, the grocery we visit down the road, half the parents in our neighborhood, I’m the only person in my community that isn’t currently represented in the ICE victim pool. If I rock the boat every single person I care about gets a plane trip to a foreign prison.
Every day it gets worse. Eventually, it won’t be plane rides, it will be ditches. Even if I don’t attract the attention of the government, it’s cultists yell racial slurs as they drive lifted trucks past my community. They gnaw at the bit for a chance to cut loose and remove this stain from their white city. They look at me with contempt in the stores for betraying the white race to love a brown woman.
I’ve seen the local protests, 10 people with signs on a busy intersection a mile from the courthouse. The police point and laugh as commuters throw drinks at them from their cars for thinking that human rights belong in a red state.
What the fuck do I do? What can I, standing here, actually do to change anything? There isn’t a single action that I can take that does not threaten to burn down my community and leave my child an orphan, and even still I’m here asking how I can solve this problem.
The only answer is that there is no action you can take that will assure you of that. If you do nothing, it is certain to happen should they succeed. If you do something it is possible that will happen and we succeed in stopping them. Or that we all die in the fires together.
Or we could stop them and you will all live. That’s is the best case, but not guaranteed. What do you want to work for? Your family is in danger now. Currently.
This is a beautiful sentiment that I’ve already passed. I want better, I want to be part of making better, but I do not know how to do that and apparently no one else does either because every time it comes up I get this this same answer. Where is our MLK, where is our Malcolm X, where is the map I need to be more than scared and alone?
Join an org like PSL and build the mass movement.
I reached out to see if there’s any active members in my area. I’m already another warm body on a stat list for so many things, I don’t have faith in that going far.
I don’t need a slogan to chant, I need a general to follow.
That’s the point of getting organized!
Nobody is coming to save you, you must save yourself. Nobody is ever going to be more interested in your liberation than you are.
And what you expect other people to do? What am I supposed to do from the other side of the world? Nothing I do will make any change to your paedophile regime. In fact, why should any other country help you? What if your warmongering country attack my country? Why the fuck should others clean your own country’s mess?
Should/could the US population do more to get their batshit crazy government in line? Abso-fucking-loutly!
Should the sane countries of the world do more to push back on us and check our power grabs? Also Abso-fucking-loutly!
Why is any consumer anywhere outside of the US purchasing any of our shit? I recently saw a graph on the global sales of US liquor and most countries had like a 10-20% drop in sales and only Canada went hard with a 60-80% drop (apologies, I’m pulling this from memory so it’s pretty vague).
You can’t solve the problem on your own and that’s the point. Instead of just driving past those protesters go join them. Invite others to go with you. Start a new organization of some kind in your community or volunteer with an existing one. Do whatever is in your power to do.
Victory over fascism is not something that can be bought from Amazon. It requires active participation. The action is less important than the participation. Just pick something and do that until you find something better.
That something better is what I’m begging for. I’ve stood and chanted, signed petitions, called representatives, stood in the rain to vote, taken every person I know to the polls, and the fascists still sit in office. I don’t need a prettier protest sign, I need someone to put a wrench in my hand and tell me the bolts that need tightened. I need someone with a plan that isn’t just “tell them we disaprove.”
I get that you also don’t have a better answer, that’s ok. This isn’t so much an argument about how as it is an extended scream into the void. I’m here, I’m willing, someone please fucking radicalize me already!
Not to lash out at you specifically but why are USians so stubbornly focused on the interacting with politics along the corporate party approved pathways? Even as others tell y’all it’s always back to voting, polling, petitions, campaign rallys.
Join an actual worker’s party or volunteer that time towards community outreach orgs rather than the popularity contests of millionaires funded by billionaires. Again, not to go off on you specifically but I’ve seen this aimless despair all over Lemmy, like everything you could possibly do is useless and, like, yeah, but only if you stay within that framework. That’s what the framework was built to do.
I can’t speak for all of us but in my area there aren’t any of those in my area. There are 4 community outreach groups in my area, two of them are churches and the other two are “non-denominational” shelters that are run out of churches. Try as I might, I’ve never found a worker’s party, I don’t think those are a thing here in the us. Outside of that, there’s a ton of volunteer options in my area if I want to help the homeless, stray cats, even the elderly. I love those, they’re great work, they don’t fix this.
I already do what I can for local politics, it isn’t making a difference, but maybe in 10 years we can get a mayor that isn’t going to raise tax on poor neighborhoods. I do wish I’d gotten into this 20 years ago, it’s on me and those like me for letting it get this bad, but guilt is about as useful as the few things I can volunteer for.
If you have given up on trying to fix where you live (which may be totally reasonable), then move to somewhere with likeminded people. Once you’re in a safer place, then you can speak out and fight for what you believe in.
Well as you’ve explained at length, there’s nothing that can be done and you (and those who think like you) are consumed with fear. To you, there is no hope so why bother. I don’t have anything else to say to say on this so have a good day.
