I don’t usually have sufficient motivation to post much on any social media platform. This is rare for me. I am putting this out in the world in part hoping for some validation, in part hoping it sparks some kind of social action to save some semblance of privacy and dignity in this modern world.
Warning: this is long.
I just wrote an email to a recruiter withdrawing my interest in pursuing a job (it’s a recruiter hired by the hiring company). I am a software engineer with decades of experience who has been unemployed for almost a year with almost no interviews. I’m hungry for paying work. Yet. I did this. Below is the email I wrote, and it is hopefully self explanatory.
I think my career might be over - especially if the kind of process I experienced is now the standard for hiring. I want nothing to do with it.
I wrote this after multiple days of trying to set up my system for the “assessment”. I ended up having to install Windows 11 (I’m a Linux guy) because the assessment environment simply didn’t work. I tried FireFox, disabled plugins, tried two versions of Chrome - neither would work. It apparently had to be the Google version.
I upgraded an old version of Win 10 (because Microsoft pretty much forced it). Got it to work on Firefox for Windows.
Twice, mid-way through the assessment, it reset itself to square one. I didn’t try a third time. This assessment software monitored my face and would raise an alarm if I looked away. It controlled my microphone. It required full access to every aspect of the browser and had me do an alt-tab partway through this “test” in order to ensure I wasn’t using any other software. Insulting. Invasive. My equipment. My home.
---- the email ----8<----
First, I appreciate your understanding and that you gave me what information you have on how this software works. Now, the hard part. My disappointment will show in the text, and it is not directed at you or your company.
I’m inclined to cease pursuing this. I feel insulted by the process in the first place, but went through it understanding that we, as job seekers, have to accept compromises we would not otherwise accept because having a job is a fundamental requirement to literally survive and provide for our children.
However, the more I’m expected to change my personal, owned equipment and software in an invasive fashion just so some stranger can have 100% surveillance on my activities in my home in order to be considered for a job interview, the more insulted I become.
Granted, I’m unusual. I’ve dedicated myself to protecting my electronic privacy by installing malware and advertisement blockers on my phones, computers, tablets. I use VPN. I built my own home NAS because I am uncomfortable with placing all my personal, financial, and health records into “the cloud” (and being charged for the privilege). I am teaching myself how to use AI by downloading and running models in my home lab because I don’t want to give out my privacy and income to strangers.
I stopped using Windows at home years ago because I could not stand the way it was dictating to me how to run my computer and constantly seeking to part me from my money with distracting advertisements while siphoning everything about me back to their servers to better market to me. Worse, it was forcing me to buy new hardware in order to simply run the system after upgrades.
Here I am, faced with a stark choice. Debase my values for the sake of the possibility of a job with a company that apparently doesn’t consider applicants worthy of dignity, or remain unemployed - possibly forced to exit the career I love if everybody is doing this - and potentially fall into poverty.
If they’re doing this before they even talk to me, it tells me that as an employee I will have at minimum this same level of surveillance. Knowing this in the back of my mind will burn me out in under six months.
Unfortunately, I don’t think I could live with myself if I chose the first option, so I respectfully withdraw myself from this process. I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
As a dev with roughly 10 years (or more depending on how you count) of experience, I would have done the same. Beyond maintaining self respect, I feel like we have a duty to each other to ensure companies that treat candidates like this have the hardest time possible finding someone willing to put up with it. I don’t even entertain companies that won’t let me use my choice of distro - especially considering I’m web UI focused.
In the back of my mind, this was a factor. I felt I needed to be at least one person who would not debase myself just to get a job in which I’d constantly be told to debase myself.
I’m a professional. I expect to be treated like one. If there are companies who are serious about hiring a professional, I’m all in. Please engage me.
That’s really well said.
I remember being in the same situation a couple years ago in which I was accepted to an interview through a video chat web application hosted by the company.
To my horror, when I joined the meeting, it was not a video chat interview. It was a series of recorded clips of their HR person reading off questions, the clips pausing, and then a timer showing up on the screen noting “You have 15 seconds to answer”.
I was so put off by this that after the first question, I decided to spend the rest of the time I was being recorded explaining to them under no uncertainties that this was one of the most unprofessional interview processes I had ever engaged in, and that they had made it clear that they did not value my time whatsoever, so I had no reason to reciprocate.
“Speak your answer. You have 15 seconds to comply.”
Yeah. I half expect that if I went to the next step, I’d be in an AI Zoom interview next.
I went through the exact same thing with Dyson back in ~2018 worst interview process I’ve ever experienced.
Unfortunately I’m inclined to believe this is on purpose to filter out people with self-respect such as yourself.
It’s not just a cost-saving thing (though I’m sure that’s also a factor), it’s a way to make sure the only people who go through with such interviews are those who are very desperate. Because people who are desperate are more willing to subject themselves to poorer work conditions.
Companies will only stop doing this when it actually stops working, which is unlikely given the massive inequality in our world today.
Way too clever. It’s probably just to cut costs, as per usual.
Why would you feel bad, the interview is a 2 way process. They are evaluating you but YOU are also evaluating them. It’s actually VERY costly to you too if you start working for the wrong company. If you realize after a week or a month that truly the culture, the tooling, etc basically anything but the pay does not match YOUR needs, whatever they may be, they you HAVE to pull out.
You can be polite about removing your application, as you were, but you should not feel bad. It is precisely WHY there are interview. Candidate think about it as only them being evaluated and that’s very wrong. As your title says clearly it is about self respect but not just during the interview, the whole time. If you are not a match sure it does suck, for both, but that’s again better than a forced match that will bring both down over time.
Finally regarding your last part, I recommend you edit your post to put your precise skillset and experience there. Hopefully someone can refer you to the right place.
I think not pursuing a position (or doing a lot of other things) due to your own values is always the right choice assuming no one else’s health and well-being is on the line. In this case I distinctly support your decision (I mean if anyone would it’s the people on Lemmy). I cannot stand that in every situation where an individual has even the slightest amount of desperation, like needing income to feed you and your family, a company will always, without fail, take advantage of it to save themselves the slightest bit of money. I’m not even inherently against the idea of digital pre-screening type processes like this assessment, but because the job seeker is usually in need of income, they will jump through these ridiculous hoops to make it work and companies know it so they put no effort into making it an easy process.
These are real human beings who, if they ever need to find a job again, will have to go through these SAME things and no one (with the power to do so) ever stops and thinks… man this sucks… we should make this easier.
The more people who demand better out of their employers (and services, governments, etc.), the better we’ll get of those things in the long run. When you surrender your rights, you worsen not only your own situation, but that of everyone else, as you validate and contribute to the system that violates them. Capitulation is the single greatest reason we have these kinds of problems.
We need more people doing exactly as you did, simply saying no. Thank you for fighting, and thank you for sharing. Best wishes in your job hunt.
I’ve been in the industry for decades, and perform interviews for entry level up to and including principal level. This form of interviewing is absurd, invasive and useless. It will NOT tell you how good someone is… any monkey can write code, the real question I always try and get a handle on is:
Can they solve complex problems? How do they tear the problems apart? How do they apply technologies to do so?
In person (or video) is the ONLY way to tell how good they are.
Take home tests are useless.
Good on you for telling them no in a very professional way.
I hope you are able to find something soon, it’s a really tough market out there!!!
I’ve never seen any interview as invasive as this, but i think simple take home assignments are useful to weed out people who don’t have basic skills for the role, can’t read instructions clearly, and/or don’t care enough for the role. It avoids me spending 30 minutes to an hour interviewing them to just reject them.
The roles i interview for are mid level devops based, and we’ve found that the best way to do this is to provide the candidate a simple git repo with 2 branches, which can’t be merged due to a merge conflict of two text files; no coding required. Just asking the candidate to resolve the merge conflict and write a README with the steps taken is enough to have more than half of the candidates unable to complete the task. If we interviewed all those candidates first, and then had to reject them, it would probably be 1 full working day per month in aggregate that would be utterly wasted.
I’ve told recruiters that if they don’t allow remote work then they can fly me out for an interview if they want more than a phone call.
That’s the funny part - they have offices about 15 minutes from where I live and it’s a hybrid job.
Then could you not do this testing on a machine at their office? What the heck?
Probably because they moved there executive offices last year to someplace far away. Funny how we have to be creative and figure how to “git 'er done” but "they’ don’t, isn’t it?
You did the right thing. We in general have to willing to inconvenience ourselves to hang on to what privacy we still have. I’m sorry the situation is so difficult for you, but I applaud your determination. To thine own self be true.
Some job advice:
Look at industrial automation companies. DCSs, PLCs, historians, MESs, etc. Those are “old” technologies now. Their world was one of proprietary hardware, networks, and code. But it’s been converging with traditional software and IT for decades. There’s a huge need to connect those “behind the firewall, closed systems” with corporate data so it can be mined, reported on, used in ai applications, linked with corporate ERP systems, e-commerce, you get the idea. Old farts like me can engineer circles and build cool things with panels and power and ladder logic and fancy bus networks and pumps and valves - but we have zero skills to take our closed system data and put it in a webpage, or link it another application. People like you who come from “the outside”, learn a bit about industrial automation to be dangerous, and then help companies do the above tasks - well they are invaluable to me.
The reason I say this is two fold - 1) it’s an unmet talent need and 2) you would never find an insulting interview process like that. In fact, you’d find the opposite- they want to meet you in person and regularly take you to meet with customers.
It’s more traditional work and that’s not for all - but it sure doesn’t have all that intrusive interview bs.
+1 to this one. I cut my teeth writing boring in house business software, some 15 years of that. Time went on and the company started to automate, so as the in house software guy I ended up messing with various pieces of industrial automation. It has been interesting, I’ve learned a lot and coming from outside sometimes I can think non conventional approach to a problem.
Oh, and find a laptop with real RS-232 -port. Protect it with your life.
Word.
Real rs-232 ports are magic.
I almost pivoted that way years ago. I even took the company’s mandatory drug test. At the end of the day though, it wasn’t a good match.
But I found that industrial automation companies and the companies that use their systems have their own degrading steps to the hiring process. It just doesn’t tend to involve AI and digital privacy invasion.
DCSs
Digital Combat Simulators?
LOL nope ;)
Distributed control systems
Drunk Crane Services
Jesus. That’s brutal. I’m not in the software world and have never experienced an process like you just described.
I do remember feeling similarly disgusted years ago applying for a retail job where I had to do an insulting “phone” interview/test where a computer asked me a bunch (like 20-30) of dumb fucking questions like:
- “Have you ever stolen money from your job?”
- “Do you think it’s okay to come to work drunk?”
- “If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
That last question very specifically is one I’ll always remember because of how incredibly stupid and insulting it is.
I hope you find work at a company that respects you as a human being and as a professional.
The last one isn’t one that would generally disqualify you, more to catch you lying. There doesn’t exist people who would put more money in a vending machine because it’s a stupid idea and vending machines don’t work that way.
Ethical answers to that range from the utilitarian give it to someone hungry to the deontological leave it since it’s not yours. But putting more money into a malfunctioning vending machine is chaotic stupid on the ethical charts.
That’s a fair point.
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
I’ve done this twice in a row. First off, it is not my problem how the person stocking the vending machine puts two pieces of product together to make it happen. I’m not in their shoes, it’s not my job, therefore not my problem. Anybody who pays twice is a fool in that situation.
Also, if you put in money it’s going to either attempt to vend another item or return your funds. It’s pointless.
Besides, if the machine works correctly, you will get a third one. If you don’t choose, the next person gets a freebie.
Wtf – if you put more money in a glitchy vending machine, you’re gonna get yet more items.😑
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
That is wild.
The vending company factors this into the prices they charge for the items, the amount they spend on the machine to ensure accuracy, and the amount they pay the people who stock the machines to do it properly.
If you take it upon yourself to unilaterally re-balance the equation, you’re not being noble, you’re just a fool.
Exactly! That question was later in the “test”, and my eyes were already rolling so hard. When I got that question I was dumbfounded by how stupid it is
That’s not even how vending machines work. You would just be paying for a new third item not the free second one.
“If you put money in a vending machine and got two items instead of one, would you put additional money in for the second item?”
No, I fucking wouldn’t, and I wouldn’t like to work for anyone who wouldn’t hire me because of that fact.
I answered it “No”, because it’s so dumb. Back then I needed the job so I made the compromise, and I was so happy when I was able to leave that job.
How dare you not compensate the Coca Cola company for its loss, through its own actions, of a few pennies! You monster! Terrorist!
I had it happen to me occasionally in a work setting many years ago. I was calling it getting a crit from the vendor machine. Happy times.
No, I fucking wouldn’t, and I wouldn’t like to work for anyone who wouldn’t hire me because of that fact.
“no, i fucking wouldn’t” is the right answer. answering otherwise would not lead to you being hired (or at least not based on that answer), it would lead to you being considered extremely untrustworthy in your responses in the questionnaire.
I half convinced myself the test session blowouts were actually a personality test. Would I keep trying the same thing 5, 10, 15 times? Am I supposed to contact them calmly seeking support? Does the way I respond reveal something undesirable? These thoughts enraged me even more.
If they’re looking for integrity and honesty, their tests engender a different response. Anybody who expects those positive behaviors from me loses access to them the moment they deny me the same on their part.
I half convinced myself the test session blowouts were actually a personality test. Would I keep trying the same thing 5, 10, 15 times? Am I supposed to contact them calmly seeking support? Does the way I respond reveal something undesirable?
i don’ think so. it works similarly when kids do some online assessment tests as part of entrance exam in schools for example. all the interviewer, whoever they are, just try to offload all their expenses on the other side and they get away with it because people usually don’t have a choice 😔
Neither would I. They can deduct it from the running tab of money vending machines have stolen from me over the years, the pricks.
I’d probably give the extra item to someone, even if a stranger, but I certainly wouldn’t put more money in the machine. Especially considering most machines just give the money back if there’s no purchase made. What a dumb question.
100% supporting OP.
i would have done the same. i went through the interview process for an engineering position a few years ago where they required an iq, reading comprehension, and basic arithmetic test. i felt so insulted by their apparent lack of trust in their applicants that i went off in the feedback field, whereupon they cold-called me to ask why i was so frustrated despite apparently being in the 95th percentile of all applicants. not something you want to tell someone applying to an engineering firm…
whereupon they cold-called me to ask why i was so frustrated despite apparently being in the 95th percentile of all applicants
LOL, “despite.” You were frustrated because you were in the 95th percentile of applicants! Only the shittiest of the incompetents would put up with that nonsense.
the most frustrating thing was when they told me they made all their applicants go through the process, from janitors to sales to engineering to c-levels. apparently it made the company “statistically egalitarian”.
The fact you were in the 95th percentile and were so angry would have clued anyone above the 60th percentile into the thought that perhaps they should rethink their approach.
the annoying thing is that they are still market leaders in their field. it’s a big company.
To be fair, a surprising number of candidates make it to the live interview stage while lacking fundamental reading and arithmetic skills.
But if you’re applying for an engineering position it’s unnecessary. Most companies require an engineering degree from an ABET accredited university, which means they get access to your transcript to make sure you actually went through that program
I’ve interviewed people with Master’s degrees that couldn’t figure out how to put together a for loop.
Basic competencies need to be confirmed.
yeah i’ve been on the other end too. but being forced to take a standardised test should feel humiliating to anyone over thirty.
My employer has its own homebrewed interview segment to cover this. It’s more subjective than a standardized test, but it’s arguably more fun and less insulting (although that doesn’t stop some entitled candidates from getting all huffy about it).
as long as it’s actually an in-person evaluation rather than an online form.
Yeah, we flap our meat at each other for an hour or so. These days it’s usually over a video call rather than in the same room, but there’s little functional difference.
I remember receiving a call about a software dev position from a massive multinational corporation. But, I couldn’t have a proper conversation: I had a splitting headache and high fever due to cold. So, I told the guy to call me back in a couple of days, when I would be in a much better shape. He never called me back. And this perhaps not even that serious, all things considered.
But still, why do recruiters have to treat the potential candidates so inhumanely?
As a guy who just hit 40 and is switching careers into this field, this scares me. Sometimes I don’t know if the tech field is worth my time and effort. Maybe it was a mistake. Anyway, good luck to you, my friend.
Last year I was trying to get a new job and I wish I’d had your convictions to end the process when it was clear things weren’t going well. Instead I let them string me along for a total of 6 onsite interviews (on 6 different days) with around 20 different people. When I had an interview with the CIO I was certain that the job was mine… only to be told the next day they were going with someone else.
After the 3rd interview I was already thinking that it was excessive and when they asked me at the last minute to come in for the last interview a voice in my head told me that I need to tell them to either make me an offer or fuck off. Instead I showed just exactly how desperate I was, and ended up hating myself for it.
Pride doesn’t feed a family, but you should hold your head high for this decision.
Thank you, and I’m sorry you went through that. I had a similar experience some years back.
