• TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca
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    2 days ago

    Tankie takeover? I always thought that the whole point of the anarchy instance was to try to pick up all people Russian-Chinese propaganda disguised under communist rhetoric couldn’t. It’s basically a charismatic facewash that falls back to the last wildcard of just trying to generically shit on governments because “they work against the people - but also, let’s create all the systems governments represent while just applying the stroke of its for the people somewhere”. In other words, it’s the communist mantra except rather than identifying itself as communism it just focuses on identifying governments bad while trying to promote governance but with some mental gymnastic spin.

    Not sure the whole lemmy-derived fediverse hasn’t been irrevocably tainted by these cult-forming/alt-bot factory communities. You can find instances that defederate from these, the problem is you immediately get a dissected part of the community because they are the baseline founding communities and the resulting conversations have discourse hidden from you that they don’t and can freely attempt to manipulate.

    • cloudskater@piefed.blahaj.zone
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      1 day ago

      Jesus is that what’s happening? I’m not strictly a communist or anarchist (tho I consider them my allies) but maybe that’s because the ones I’ve encountered are upfront and honest about who they are and what they believe instead of trying to obfuscate it lol Aside from outright trolling, what is even the point of acting this way? I genuinely don’t get it from any perspective.

    • Blaze@lazysoci.al
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      2 days ago

      because they are the baseline founding communities and the resulting conversations have discourse hidden from you that they don’t and can freely attempt to manipulate.

      .ml doesn’t have the most active communities since a few years

      !asklemmy@lemmy.world is much more active than !asklemmy@lemmy.ml , !fediverse@lemmy.world is much more active than !fediverse@lemmy.ml

      For the few remaining, there are usually alternatives, e.g. !privacy@lemmy.ml , but !privacy@programming.dev is a valid alternative

      • cloudskater@piefed.blahaj.zone
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        1 day ago

        Problem is, I’ve heard, that .ml and .world share funding and isn’t .dev tankie ridden too? Either that or it’s full of AI bros, I could be wrong.

        • Blaze@lazysoci.al
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          23 hours ago

          Ml and world definitely don’t share funding, and .dev isn’t tankie ridden as far as I know

      • TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca
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        1 day ago

        The current system is flawed. This system will always carry its foundational weaknesses. Your counterexamples are examples of the dissection you have to force, never mind that it does not address the problem at the user level.

    • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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      2 days ago

      Yeah, lemmy is well and truly dead. you need diversity for a platform to grow and Lemmy doesn’t have that since all the “bad diversity” has been removed.

      • cloudskater@piefed.blahaj.zone
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        1 day ago

        I mean it seems pretty alive to me on a community level, it’s just that the devs make it’s failure inevitable, which is why I jumped ship over here to PieFed within two months.

      • TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca
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        I don’t see it that way, but I do see users coming into it and having to face lower quality arguments without nuance along with trolling or having to face low interaction rates, or ridiculous beehive charades of argument chains too surreal to seem real, and just choosing to go back to the mainstream platforms instead.

        • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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          having to face lower quality arguments without nuance along with trolling or having to face low interaction rates, or ridiculous beehive charades of argument chains too surreal to seem real,

          Yep. And at times, that and worse from mods.

          As per the

          all the “bad diversity” has been removed

          effect.

          Gate-keeping. Groupthink of the mods.

          Though, lets remember, this is still the fediverse. It’s not a monolith where the mods are the mods. Mods some communities are worse, some are better, and we can always start our own communities and host our own instances.

          Robust enough against lemmy being “dead”, like @goat@sh.itjust.works said.

          • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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            21 hours ago

            Can you find me one conservative community on lemmy?

            I’m of the belief that if you want to grow a forum, you need to cater most groups. Otherwise you’ll stagnate and die.

          • TheObviousSolution@lemmy.ca
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            1 day ago

            You have (some of) the functionality, but the defaults suck and the way to fix it might mean a lot less people and expertise involved in the discourse

    • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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      2 days ago

      Anarchist are just tankies who don’t like the term. Kinda like conservatives who say they’re libertarians. They’re just magas with hammer and sickles.

      • PugJesus@piefed.social
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        1 day ago

        Most anarchists who are serious are far from tankies. In fact, in my experience, I clash with anarchists because I feel they’re too idealistic and unwilling to use repression on any negative element of society.

        There are anarchists who converge with tankies, but generally those are the terminally online sorts who are lonely and seeking a sense of community, rather than committed ideologues.

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          1 day ago

          That may be the case outside of the web, but pretty much every anarchist I have run into has been just a tankie that didn’t like the title.

      • roundduckkira@sh.itjust.works
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        2 days ago

        Or democratic socialists that like to pretend they’re anti-electoral, while still saying pro-Western crap without some modicum of criticism (also though the tankies need their criticism too since often tankies devolves into fascist-adjacent or fascist governments, like China with their genocides and capitalism).

        The first world left doesn’t exist, it’s so overly splintered with people threatening each other in knife fights over silly differences, with the spectre of western and eastern propaganda spitroasting first worlders’ minds. We need someone influential in some form to lead everyone that isn’t going to be Napoleon/Stalin 2.0, but that sounds like it’s against conventional Marxist thought, but I don’t have any better ideas.

      • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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        2 days ago

        AI generated hammer and sickles

        nothing screams anarchist like using GenAI and enabling enshittification.

  • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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    2 days ago

    Afterthought [from both our experience] : maybe they’re just prejudiced and ableist against autistics.

    :3

    … and/or our blunt honesty, and our critiques of systems and logic.

      • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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        2 days ago

        Or plausibly even autistic themselves, with CPTSD, and the resultant black&white overly reductive reflexive “thinking”, contrary to the “a place for undogmatic”.

      • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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        2 days ago

        Not to the point of post/reply removal nor banning, yet. But I get that vibe. At least enough to offer the plausibility. As may fit your example experience.

    • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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      The wildest thing is that db0 often argues with Tankies about unity as they repeatedly tell him that they’ll kill anarchists if given the chance.

      Yet for whatever reason, the few anarchists left on dbzer0 and db0 himself insist on aligning with them. https://hexbear.net/post/7507322/6879735

        • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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          14 hours ago

          Actually Existing Socialism

          It’s copetalk for Tankies to decide what is actual socialism and what is not. They believe China, Cuba, and Vietnam are all actually socialist. You can give them Cuba and Vietnam, but China? Hardly

      • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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        1 day ago

        Literally reads like:

        “In every case in history, authoritarian communists have purged the anarchists after the success of the revolution. So you should accept our blanket leadership because otherwise we will be forced to purge you after the success of the revolution. And even if you do submit to us, you will be forever at our mercy because if we ever deem you as a threat then we will eliminate you.”

        Authoritarians in every form just can’t seem to see through their own narcissism…

      • cloudskater@piefed.blahaj.zone
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        1 day ago

        I would, and did in another community, but my post got taken down by a Blahaj mod because they didn’t want to further the harassment even potentially, which I understand to be fair.

      • YappyMonotheist@lemmy.world
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        A now popular word used by “liberals” for anyone that doesn’t just regurgitate Western narratives, from what I’ve seen.

          • roundduckkira@sh.itjust.works
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            Communism never worked at all (crushing of communist revolutions and calling Cuba and pre-Maduro Venezuela bad, as much as the latter was anti LGBT which is a major problem), Israel has a right to defend itself, ignore the rapists alongside Epstein, Democrats and Republicans are different in their goals, regime change in other Latin American countries, communism killed more than capitalism (which is more debatable when you consider economic death in capitalism, but then again the holodomor was really really bad and targeted Ukraine, and don’t get me started on the Muslim genocide in China), Islam is violent, so on so on.

            • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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              Lol it’s a “western narrative” that Nazis and a mix of people with some bad aren’t indistinguishable.

              Black, white, gray? They all look the same to me!! /s

              • roundduckkira@sh.itjust.works
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                What what do you mean? I’m kinda a bit dumb, like you mean Nazis alongside anyone that tolerated them means everyone is a Nazi, or what do you mean?

                • TrickDacy@lemmy.world
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                  I mean that Democrats are clearly extremely different from Republicans and it doesn’t need any “narrative” to convince anyone watching their actions.

                • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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                  21 hours ago

                  I don’t think communism or capitalism are inherently violent or have killed more. You can have communism and capitalism without killing people. Fascism, though, requires death to operate.

                  Communism has worked.

                  I don’t think Europe or Commonwealth nations are ignoring the Epstein rapists. Only the US seems to be doing it.

                  The rest I don’t know enough about to really have an opinion if it’s a Western narrative or not, especially since you’re using US-defaultism.

    • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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      Naa you’re just maga with a hammer and sickle icon. You’re still pro-authoritarian

      • YappyMonotheist@lemmy.world
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        Maybe other people (although it feels a bit too intellectually “dissonant” for it to be viable), but certainly not me.

        • SupraMario@lemmy.world
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          Naa you as well. You literally post russian propaganda, and act like Ukraine/NATO is the reason russia invaded… you’re a tankie, you just don’t seem to want to admit it.

          • roundduckkira@sh.itjust.works
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            I will never understand why a tankie wants to support a capitalist nation (yes formerly ML but like that’s long ago smh, even if you think being a tankie is good) invading a sovereign nation that doesn’t deserve invasion. Ukraine, Cuba, Palestine, Taiwan, it doesn’t matter their ideologies, these countries are sovereign nations (or supposed to be in the case of Palestine) that didn’t need a fucking invasion.

  • Stern@lemmy.world
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    One would think in a community that says no ML they would just ban on sight

    • roundduckkira@sh.itjust.works
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      I think part of this is the losing of hope within the left in systems that aren’t more forceful like ML, due to the failures of the progressive capitalist/socdem/demsocs in going against fascist and imperialist policy. Also because literally Cuba good (hot take!!!), as much as any other examples of ML end up in corrupt leaders and violence (Laos being anti-LGBT at least, and don’t get me started on how China isn’t even really ML anymore but rather a capitalist fascist country in the skin of a socialist country).

      • Tiresia@slrpnk.net
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        Another part is probably how Lemmy moderators are structurally cops, and All Cops Are Bastards.

        Mods have a monopoly on the digital equivalent of violence (banning and deletion) and are expected and required to unilaterally use that monopoly to police the community. They have nearly unilateral discretion over how incidents are handled, and complaints are primarily taken care of through mods discussing internally.

        Communities may elect their mods, but given communities are defined by those who are not banned by mods, mods can use their discretion to ban dissenters whenever they can get away with it while only banning supporters when they have to. Thus communities evolve into ones that (vocally or passively) support their mods as long as those mods aren’t much more egregious than they have been so far. The vocal support then reinforces the mods’ beliefs in their righteousness, justifying their strictness, until they are a police state.

        Good mods get disgusted by this pipeline at some point during the process and stop being mods. Crappy mods speedrun the pipeline and become sad little kings of sad little hills. But insidious mods go through the pipeline slowly, creating an oasis of liberal stability where those that fit themselves within the mods’ Overton Window can have a flourishing community (hi goat!).

        And it’s hard to organize servers any other way because by default with our current capitalism digital infrastructure, the admin is the owner and users are producer-consumers who have no tools to project political power beyond what the admin deigns to bestow on them. Because the users are given no way to organize politically they devolve into chaos, so the admin makes use of the tools they have and polices the users or imports the position of moderator so approved users can police the other users.

        So over time, communities on the internet either collapse or have mods who grow from being willing to exist as liberal authorities to sympathizing with authoritarianism. So what anti-authoritarian doctrines there were that helped sustain the liberal oasis as long as they did start to feel naive or restrictive, while there is long precedent for silencing the complainers who rail against the edges of that increasingly less liberal oasis. And so authoritarianism arrives without fanfare, and those embarrassing rules that used to define the community are buried without ceremony.

        At the start there were thousands of frogs in the pot. As it became warm, frogs started jumping out, but I did not jump because I was not that kind of frog. As it became hot, more frogs jumped out, but I did not jump because I was not that kind of frog. And now it’s boiling, and my brain is too fried for me to ever want to jump anymore.

    • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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      I gave db0 just a smidge of evidence that tankies are coordinating a takeover of Dbzer0, including dbzer0 admins aiding the takeover. Naturally, this is Db0’s reply He’s kinda given up, sad. He’d rather own the libs than admit he’s being treated like every single anarchist in history. Bizarre how they keep falling for betrayal. Perhaps this time the Authoritarians won’t eat me! Literal insanity.

      • Tollana1234567@lemmy.today
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        they also are infiltrating the more"neutral" political memes sub too, i noticed it has very tankie postings. after thier tankie instances have mostly been blocked by most fed users, i assume they arnt getting much engagement.

      • PugJesus@piefed.social
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        He’d rather own the libs than admit he’s being treated like every single anarchist in history.

        Nah, with terminally online cosplayers, the result is almost always “Mask off, actually was aligned with tankies all along” rather than “Principled opposition getting betrayed after alliance of convenience”. That’s more of a real-world anarchist pitfall.

        Tankies give them asspats and don’t demand anything of them, while evil liberals and demsocs actually demand some small baseline of action. If one’s interest in anarchism is more the sense of community than ideology, they pitch towards tankies hard. The reverse is rarer, despite tankies also being largely of the same mentality, because anarchism is less inherently tribalistic than ML insanity about orthodoxy and revisionism, making it less appealing to a tribalist mindset already immersed in such concepts.

        On the other hand, I’ve known a number of tankies through the years who pitched hard-right once they found community with online right-wingers.

        • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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          On the other hand, I’ve known a number of tankies through the years who pitched hard-right once they found community with online right-wingers.

          That doesn’t surprise me at all. Authoritarian-minded narcissists don’t care about ideological consistency, ethical reasoning, or contextual realism. They just care about the authoritarian grift that feeds their insatiable egos.

          They call the “horseshoe politics” argument “both-sides-ism” when it’s actually the opposite. “Both sides are bad” is an attempt to equate left-wing with right-wing politics to justify doomerism, complacency, and cynical accelerationism while claiming some sort of moral exceptionism (my ends justify my means because both sides are bad).

          “Horseshoe politics” on the other hand calls out ideological and methodological extremism on both sides. Its main claim is that authoritarianism is bad, regardless of which side of the political spectrum it falls on.

          It also comes as no surprise that these same types of “leftists” never call out trump, maga, and the actual fascists. No, they focus all their ire on corporate dems (who are deserving of critique within their own contexts, of course, but not to the exclusion of far-right conservatism), calling them “liberal fascists,” whatever the fuck that is, and watering down the term “fascist” so that we all sound like loonies whenever we call out actual fascism (such as maga/trumpism).

          • Stamau123@lemmy.world
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            Yeah, I had to block so many ‘anarchist’ meme communities that were nothing but hating dems

            • tomenzgg@midwest.social
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              15 hours ago

              For real; I posted a picture (not even a meme but a screenshot of a post I thought made a good point) in an ongoing thread regarding certain viabilities of anarchism and was the only one who got my comment deleted with just a line about bringing up strawmen and fallacies, apparently (it was more in depth with particular examples, compared to the other comments, so maybe it struck a nerve). Not even the tankie comms have deleted my comments over just simply countering me or just down voting.

              Felt more like trying to maintain a social club, than anything.

      • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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        2 days ago

        we’re not going to ban tankies on sight

        But the start of the blurb on leftymemes says

        An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of “ML” (read: Dengist) influence.

        … ???

        Who are “turbolibs” and why are they trying to keep them happy? ???

        ???

        Bizarre how they keep falling for betrayal.

        Yeah. Mind-blowing.

          • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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            That’s the old blurb, they changed it a little while ago.

            How little a while ago?

            *refreshes page again*

            Still says

            An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of “ML” (read: Dengist) influence.

            looking at it from here.

            • Loco_Mex@sh.itjust.works
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              11 hours ago

              Oh sorry, I misread it.

              The old blurb was

              An international (English speaking) socialist Lemmy community free of the “ML” influence of instances like lemmy.ml and lemmygrad. This is a place for undogmatic shitposting and memes from a progressive, anti-capitalist and truly anti-imperialist perspective, regardless of specific ideology.

      • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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        Okay, but do you expect them not to know who you are when you’re doing this?

        If pointing at the name Diva is self explanatory enough, so is pointing to the name goat. It’s just known users beefing with known users, regardless of content.

        Like, he surely knows he is talking to you on an account you made to evade your ban off his instance?

        • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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          And who am I to you? Since most of the shit said about me is blatantly false.

          • ZombiFrancis@sh.itjust.works
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            2 days ago

            The person that runs this community. Both have a reputation, and from what I recall you were banned from db0 a while back. That was somewhere around the time you made the totalanarchy community just to place it in time. So db0 giving a tired response to you about tankies just isn’t wild to me.

            • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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              I was banned from dbzer0 after I challenged cowbee posting tankie copypasta. I called dbzer0 out for being a tankie bar.

                • goat@sh.itjust.worksOPM
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                  No, it’s not, dbzer0 has been a tankie bar for quite a while.

                  Figured that perhaps some evidence of the takeover would sway db0 that tankies aren’t friends with anarchists, but tankie bar will tankie bar.

        • Digit@lemmy.wtf
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          2 days ago

          Speaking of leopards, I got banned from leopardsatemyface, for not conforming to their very very narrow dogma on one topic. Seems like they’re already well “established”.

          • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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            Ah yes, that’s because leopardsatemyface is run by face-eating panthers, which is completely different!

            You can only talk about face-eating leopards eating faces there, but don’t you dare suggest the face-eating panthers might eat faces too…

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              Yeah, it was a surprising-shouldn’t-be-surprising situation, seeing them all walk around with planks in their eyes with their faces eaten off, jeering at the flecks in the eyes of others with their faces eaten off. They don’t like threats to the delusions they identify with. Classic social-dominance groupthink stuff.

              I hope they enjoy their flavour of totalitarianism. /s

      • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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        I find their obsession with the term “libs” fascinating.

        It has a very different meaning outside of the US. Which goes to show that their whole “but my global south!!” is fake and performative.

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          same, only because the conservatives use “lib as insult too” see the common denominator. but they add “shitlib” as alternative. by in far US, has never been liberal in anyway, political or otherwise outside of a very small nich groups.

        • Rampsquatch@sh.itjust.works
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          Anytime I see anyone use the word “lib” or “liberal” used the way these people do, I can’t help but think of Alex Jones. Not really the guy you want your behavior to remind people of, I think.

          • wonderingwanderer@sopuli.xyz
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            Pretty sure a lot of them are an ancap psyop to divide the left over ideological purity tests and campism, while making leftism as a whole look bad from the outside…

        • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
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          It’s the outside-the-US meaning that anarchists would typically use, and the US-centric definition is effectively a subset of the general definition when viewed from a leftist perspective, as they’re both capitalist with minimal regulation, just in the US it’s got the added connotations of being less homophobic and racist etc. then the centre of the Overton window, whereas classic liberalism isn’t incompatible with racism and homophobia etc…

          • lmmarsano@group.lt
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            15 hours ago

            I’m not sure this is only about regional variations (I wrote about before) where in North America liberal refers to modern liberalism whereas for the rest of the world it typically refers to classical liberalism. Regardless of their thoughts on classical liberalism, there’s still the concept that “protecting and enhancing the freedom of the individual” ought “to be the central problem of politics” or rank high up there, and that concept has a name: liberalism. Acting like there’s some fault in insisting freedom of the individual matters or that it has do with anything else is a shitty take on their part.

            To address your other points, neither capitalism nor liberalism is essential to each other, and capitalism is older than liberal democracy.

            Capitalism emerged in Britain, the Netherlands, and most of today’s high-income countries long before democracy.

            Even in the recent past, capitalism has coexisted with undemocratic rule, as in Chile from 1973 to 1990, Brazil from 1964 to 1985, and Japan until 1945. Contemporary China has a variant of capitalism with a high level of state intervention, but its system of government is not a democracy by our definition. In many countries today, however, capitalism and democracy coexist, each system influencing how the other works.

            Moreover, modern liberalism advocates market regulation.

            Liberal democratic governments may play a major role directing economic development even with less left-leaning liberals.

            These differences even among democracies are part of the explanation for governments’ differing roles in the capitalist economy. The Japanese and South Korean governments play a central role in setting the direction of the economy. But the amount of tax collected (both locally and nationally) is low compared with some rich countries in northern Europe, where it is almost half of GDP. In Sweden and Denmark, the tax system is used to reduce income inequality to a far greater extent than in Japan and South Korea.

          • Skiluros@sh.itjust.works
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            2 days ago

            the US-centric definition is effectively a subset of the general definition

            Are you sure about that? Can you cite a real world comparative example with specifics (attitudes, views, perspective, key historical points relevant to this conversation)? No meaningless generalities.

            It’s the outside-the-US meaning that anarchists would typically use … when viewed from a leftist perspective, as they’re both capitalist with minimal regulation

            If that’s the case, are you saying that a liberal in Moldova, Oman and the US are all the same and “capitalist with minimal regulation” is all that they are?

            And the points above are just the tip of the iceberg, the kindergarten-level stuff.

            So here is another question, so when you say liberals in Oman and the US are a subset of the same thing, do anarchists have the final call of defining who qualifies as a liberal in Oman (or any other country)? Does self identification as liberal play any role or not? This is not a gotcha per se., well, maybe a little bit, I am referring to something specific :), but I am genuinely curious what you have to say on this.

            I will say it again, this really is fascinating. There is a certain abstract beauty to the whole obsession with “libs” among American internet “leftists”.

            • AnyOldName3@lemmy.world
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              2 days ago

              Liberalism is a really broad family of conflicting political and moral philosophies, and it’s really just the capitalist with minimal regulation bit that’s consistently there in all the branches. Most of the time, people are only dealing with different branches of liberalism, and depending on the local politics, there might only be one major political party in a country calling themselves the liberals.

              Generally, leftists will talk about liberals and liberalism a lot because they’re living under some branch of liberalism, and they disagree to some extent with every branch of liberalism. Socialism, Communism and Anarchism are not Liberalism (and if you want to upset tankies and say it’s distinct from communism or upset other leftists and say it’s leftist Marxism-Leninism is not liberalism, too). Fascism and Conservatism are also not liberalism, but they’re not leftist, either, and to confuse things, lots of political parties calling themselves conservative around the world only want things that fit a definition of liberalism.

              I mentioned anarchism and what anarchists think in the previous post because you replied to a post with a screenshot where an anarchist mentioned libs and seemed to think it was ambiguous what he meant, when it’s deducible from the fact that he’s an anarchist.

            • SapientLasagna@lemmy.ca
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              2 days ago

              So here is another question, so when you say liberals in Oman and the US are a subset of the same thing

              The thing I’ve noticed about the most vocal leftists here is that they all subscribe to the “spheres of influence” idea, where countries essentially belong to the great power whose sphere they exist in. Such countries (and the people within them) don’t have any agency or rights except as afforded by their great power masters. As such, Oman doesn’t matter or even really exist.