People who live where there are [legitimately] zero other options – i.e., actually rural – are a negligible minority. 80% of the population has no excuse, and trying to “whatabout the other 20%” is a bad-faith argument.
I literally provided you data that shows that the majority of workers drive more than 10+ miles…most people are not in the middle of cities. Period. Stop trying to make it sound like the majority of the usa is in dense cities.
I mean…the census can define whatever it wants to define, but the rest of us still have to live in the real world.
Sure, you can call my satellite suburban neighborhood “urban”. But it’s 3 miles of twisting, turning roads just to reach the nearest convenience store. The nearest bus stop would be at least 7 miles away.
Maybe we shouldn’t rely solely on the Census Bureau in this regard? Perhaps a transportation authority of some sort would be able to provide better measuring stick for this particular discussion?
Your three replies to me keep talking about how things “are.” I’m talking about how that’s fucked up and has no excuse to be that way. Your comments are not providing “nuance,” you’re providing tired excuses that I’ve already heard ad nauseam.
I DON’T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE EXCUSES. 80% OF AMERICANS SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO TRANSIT, AND THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THEM DON’T IS WRONG.
The suburbs were a mistake, and must be fixed. The “it is what it is” argument is nothing but a lazy goddamn cop-out. I don’t fucking want to hear it, and you shouldn’t either! Demand better.
If you don’t want to hear other people’s opinions, then you will never get your way. You will always be unhappy. Nothing will ever be good enough. People want to be heard. They like validation. And they definitely follow emotion before logic. But you can’t change the system without the help of other people, even people you don’t 100% agree with.
I speak from the heart and I speak with empathy. I FEEL YOU. I’m frustrated, too. I’m fed up.
Through the last few years, I’ve been thinking about moving out of the country. In terms of places that I can make a better life for myself, the pickings are slim. The USA isn’t the best country out there, but it’s not the worst by far. I’m openly LGBTQ, which automatically limits my options. I don’t have a lot of money, so Western Europe is too pricey. Etc, etc…but, yeah, eventually I’ll pull the trigger and just leave.
You want to convince people how wonderful things would be if only we do it your way? Then run for office. Seriously. If you are this passionate about changing the status quo, if you are 100% sure that your way is the right way, that’s what you should be doing. Change the world for the better, my friend, even for a brief moment. It’s more than I’ve been able to accomplish in a lifetime.
80% sounds very high. Do you have any data to support that? I see rough estimates closer to 50/50. Mass transit isn’t viable outside of Metro areas and a lot of people live far from big cities.
Despite the increase in the urban population, urban areas, defined as densely developed residential, commercial, and other nonresidential areas, now account for 80.0% of the U.S. population, down from 80.7% in 2010. This small decline was largely the result of changes to the criteria for defining urban areas implemented by the Census Bureau, including raising the minimum population threshold for qualification from 2,500 to 5,000. The rural population — the population in any areas outside of those classified as urban — increased as a percentage of the national population from 19.3% in 2010 to 20.0% in 2020.
They’ve even tried to prop up the rural population counts by changing the definition, but it still only manages to be 20% anyway.
But the key is that that isn’t a legitimate need because driving is the only reasonable way to solve the problem; it’s an illegitimate need caused by a failure of politicians to allow correct city planning and infrastructure.
I work in many different locations. Some of them remote. I often bring large equipment with me. More than that, my work days tend to be anywhere from 10 hours to 16 hours long, typically with a lot of manual labor included. Some of my commutes can be 2 hours one way. I’ve worked plenty of those 16 hour days with 4 hours of driving added on top. The thought of riding a bike or running the public transit gauntlet (which, will typically double or quadruple the commute times in my area) is repulsive.
I think you’re massively over-simplifying this issue.
Guess what: you’re that special snowflake who has a legitimate need to drive. The vast majority of people are not like you.
Just like pearl-clutching about rural people, bringing up arguments like yours to try to make excuses for why the majority “have to” drive is bad-faith whataboutism.
Providing counter-arguments you clearly haven’t considered is not a bad-faith argument. Lobbing insults and strawman arguments (I never made the case that the majority of people have to drive) is arguing in bad faith.
Don’t know where you get your figures, but my research says otherwise.
45% of Americans have no access to public transportation at all, particularly in rural and outer suburban areas.
And, while 55% have access to public transit, it’s often not running when/where they need it to go. Or it might take hours of their life from them. Public transit isn’t such a great deal if it turns a 15 minute commute into 90 minutes. That’s an extra couple of hours per day of your time, unpaid and unproductive. It adds up.
But, this is the way the transit system is designed in the USA. It’s no accident that public transit is so inconvenient. Major car companies lobby against public transit, and the politicians gladly trade their integrity for a campaign contribution.
45% of Americans have no access to public transportation at all, particularly in rural and outer suburban areas.
And the primary reason for this is that gas is cheap and that there’s little political demand for public transport. Public transport sucks because only the poorest of the poor use it. In places where the working and middle class use it, it actually provides decent service.
Good public transport and low gas prices are mutually exclusive.
That’s a consequence of your and your neighbors’ failure to elect people who would govern properly, not a result of transit or density somehow being inherently non-viable.
Even in suburbia public transport is perfectly viable. You can set up networks of high-frequency stops places decently far apart, so the average person is maybe half a mile from the nearest stop. Then people can use micro-mobility options like scooters to cover that last mile.
And if there aren’t bike lanes or places for people to safely ride scooters? A city can create those overnight with a few traffic cones. There’s just no political will to do so. When gas is $7 a gallon, that might change.
People who live where there are [legitimately] zero other options – i.e., actually rural – are a negligible minority. 80% of the population has no excuse, and trying to “whatabout the other 20%” is a bad-faith argument.
The majority of the USA lives in what is considered rural suburbs. Aka the nearest place for work is more than 10 miles.
https://www.axios.com/2024/03/24/average-commute-distance-us-map
That’s a lie. Why are you lying?
Suburbs count as urban, not rural. https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/urban-rural-populations.html
I literally provided you data that shows that the majority of workers drive more than 10+ miles…most people are not in the middle of cities. Period. Stop trying to make it sound like the majority of the usa is in dense cities.
I mean…the census can define whatever it wants to define, but the rest of us still have to live in the real world.
Sure, you can call my satellite suburban neighborhood “urban”. But it’s 3 miles of twisting, turning roads just to reach the nearest convenience store. The nearest bus stop would be at least 7 miles away.
Maybe we shouldn’t rely solely on the Census Bureau in this regard? Perhaps a transportation authority of some sort would be able to provide better measuring stick for this particular discussion?
Your three replies to me keep talking about how things “are.” I’m talking about how that’s fucked up and has no excuse to be that way. Your comments are not providing “nuance,” you’re providing tired excuses that I’ve already heard ad nauseam.
I DON’T GIVE A FUCK ABOUT THE EXCUSES. 80% OF AMERICANS SHOULD HAVE ACCESS TO TRANSIT, AND THE FACT THAT A LOT OF THEM DON’T IS WRONG.
The suburbs were a mistake, and must be fixed. The “it is what it is” argument is nothing but a lazy goddamn cop-out. I don’t fucking want to hear it, and you shouldn’t either! Demand better.
If you don’t want to hear other people’s opinions, then you will never get your way. You will always be unhappy. Nothing will ever be good enough. People want to be heard. They like validation. And they definitely follow emotion before logic. But you can’t change the system without the help of other people, even people you don’t 100% agree with.
I speak from the heart and I speak with empathy. I FEEL YOU. I’m frustrated, too. I’m fed up.
Through the last few years, I’ve been thinking about moving out of the country. In terms of places that I can make a better life for myself, the pickings are slim. The USA isn’t the best country out there, but it’s not the worst by far. I’m openly LGBTQ, which automatically limits my options. I don’t have a lot of money, so Western Europe is too pricey. Etc, etc…but, yeah, eventually I’ll pull the trigger and just leave.
You want to convince people how wonderful things would be if only we do it your way? Then run for office. Seriously. If you are this passionate about changing the status quo, if you are 100% sure that your way is the right way, that’s what you should be doing. Change the world for the better, my friend, even for a brief moment. It’s more than I’ve been able to accomplish in a lifetime.
80% sounds very high. Do you have any data to support that? I see rough estimates closer to 50/50. Mass transit isn’t viable outside of Metro areas and a lot of people live far from big cities.
https://www.census.gov/newsroom/press-releases/2022/urban-rural-populations.html
They’ve even tried to prop up the rural population counts by changing the definition, but it still only manages to be 20% anyway.
I think there’s some nuance missing here.
I’ve lived in suburbs where the nearest public transit was 4 or 5 miles away.
You can live in a densely populated city and still need to travel long distances regularly though… Especially if you’re poor.
But the key is that that isn’t a legitimate need because driving is the only reasonable way to solve the problem; it’s an illegitimate need caused by a failure of politicians to allow correct city planning and infrastructure.
I work in many different locations. Some of them remote. I often bring large equipment with me. More than that, my work days tend to be anywhere from 10 hours to 16 hours long, typically with a lot of manual labor included. Some of my commutes can be 2 hours one way. I’ve worked plenty of those 16 hour days with 4 hours of driving added on top. The thought of riding a bike or running the public transit gauntlet (which, will typically double or quadruple the commute times in my area) is repulsive.
I think you’re massively over-simplifying this issue.
Guess what: you’re that special snowflake who has a legitimate need to drive. The vast majority of people are not like you.
Just like pearl-clutching about rural people, bringing up arguments like yours to try to make excuses for why the majority “have to” drive is bad-faith whataboutism.
Providing counter-arguments you clearly haven’t considered is not a bad-faith argument. Lobbing insults and strawman arguments (I never made the case that the majority of people have to drive) is arguing in bad faith.
Don’t know where you get your figures, but my research says otherwise.
45% of Americans have no access to public transportation at all, particularly in rural and outer suburban areas.
And, while 55% have access to public transit, it’s often not running when/where they need it to go. Or it might take hours of their life from them. Public transit isn’t such a great deal if it turns a 15 minute commute into 90 minutes. That’s an extra couple of hours per day of your time, unpaid and unproductive. It adds up.
But, this is the way the transit system is designed in the USA. It’s no accident that public transit is so inconvenient. Major car companies lobby against public transit, and the politicians gladly trade their integrity for a campaign contribution.
And the primary reason for this is that gas is cheap and that there’s little political demand for public transport. Public transport sucks because only the poorest of the poor use it. In places where the working and middle class use it, it actually provides decent service.
Good public transport and low gas prices are mutually exclusive.
This might be true in some European countries, but it’s not in the US. You don’t have to be rural to not have public transportation options.
But it does mean the lack of public transportation is illegitimate.
How so? It doesn’t exist. I can’t just will it into existence. It legitimately is not an option.
That’s a consequence of your and your neighbors’ failure to elect people who would govern properly, not a result of transit or density somehow being inherently non-viable.
ah right, it’s my fault
Even in suburbia public transport is perfectly viable. You can set up networks of high-frequency stops places decently far apart, so the average person is maybe half a mile from the nearest stop. Then people can use micro-mobility options like scooters to cover that last mile.
And if there aren’t bike lanes or places for people to safely ride scooters? A city can create those overnight with a few traffic cones. There’s just no political will to do so. When gas is $7 a gallon, that might change.