Cowbee I like the chart, but respectfully a lot of the rhetoric on ML instances reads closer to trolling than engaging to build a “sympathetic base” , just my 2 cents not worth much more than that ;-)
Every time I see Cowbee in a thread like this, it’s like I walked into a restaurant to see someone trying to explain to somebody else why their friend who just spat in their food is actually a cool dude doing great solidarity because the owners of the restaurant treat their employees poorly.
ML in my experience has very little to do with engaging with leftists and more to do with bashing the “decadent West.” Anytime I see memes.ml pop up in my feed, it’s a 50/50 shot between me finding something funny or something that makes me debate blocking the instance as much as I can at an account level.
Lol you have not seen a single person say this, you’re just reaching into a grab bag of dialogue tropes you’ve heard in old movies or maybe a Red Alert game. Fucking nobody says “the decadent west” outside of Bond movies from 50 years ago. Quit lying.
ML in my experience has very little to do with engaging with leftists and more to do with bashing the “decadent West.” Anytime I see memes.ml pop up in my feed, it’s a 50/50 shot between me finding something funny or something that makes me debate blocking the instance as much as I can at an account level.
Meme communities will be like that, right?
Why not block this community and engage with other communities in the instance?
I guess? I don’t think I’ve ever really stayed in a memes community where that’s the case, though on Reddit I was largely in places like egg_irl and traaa, where everything was focused around a shared experience of a minority group.
Besides, it’s not just the memes community, the memes is just where it appears the most blatantly and loudly. As the person above me said, it’s an instance wide thing. ML is nowhere near as bad as Hexbear (or I have yet to see any targeted harassment campaigns against an instance for failing a purity vibe check come from ML, at least) but, as they say, “nobody hates leftists more than other leftists.” Leftist spaces tend to have a bit of an undercurrent of only being welcoming to the “right kind of leftist.” I used “decadent West” up there very purposefully. There’s a bit of a vibe to ML that’s less “uniting various leftist groups” and more “preaching The Good Word to those poor ignorants” proselytizing.
Lemmy.ml isn’t an org, I’m not trying to suggest that it is. Leftists make memes and shitposts here, but when it comes to actual action, organizing in real life is always recommended.
No worries. But making a movement into a farce of itself and encouraging infighting is right out of the 1970s cointel playbook.
Even better if you can do the above to the point that the original ideology is no longer decently reflected in the current discourse
(Note this is consistent with most online leftists spaces, so not throwing specific shade on ML, and gets into a whole greater problem with the role social tech platforms play in shaping discourse)
Your entire argument is based on the idea that shitposting online is the primary means by which leftists organize. I organize with a communist party in real life, online memes and shitposting are by no means what people advocate as “practice,” it’s just a thing to do in free time. Take a step back and rethink what you believe is going on.
What on Earth are you talking about? All real communist orgs use online agitation, newsletters, social media, and more. I’m not saying that shitposting is valuable, I’m saying it’s not what I mean by practice. You’re deeply confused.
It’s idiotic to suggest you stop debating. Theory isn’t optional. It’s the framework that separates effective action from performative gesture. You want to bypass clarification for the sake of “unity,” but that’s precisely how movements get absorbed, diverted, or broken. Action without theory isn’t courage it’s idiocy. And your theory contradicts itself: you call for a broad front while dismissing the most successful actually-existing socialist project that has lifted the most people from poverty, challenged imperialist containment most effectively, and created the most material space for the Global South. It’s incoherent nonsense. Also side note, but every single even semi successful revolution has been some flavour of Marxist Leninist, this clearly isn’t a fluke or luck.
You’re correct that shitposting alone achieves little. But a coalition that includes those who uphold the imperialist state achieves less. The Chinese revolution for example didn’t succeed by treating all anti-Japanese forces as equals. It succeeded by applying a materialist analysis to the principal contradiction at each stage, coordinating tactically when interests aligned, and never surrendering political independence. Unity isn’t an abstract good, it’s a conditional tool. Its value depends on clarity about objectives, adversaries, and the balance of forces.
So debate continues. Not for its own sake, but because sharpening theory is how you avoid repeating errors, co-optation, and strategic dead ends. You should organize with those who share a material commitment to dismantling imperialism, not just those who oppose fascism in the abstract. That isn’t sectarianism, it’s the precision necessary to build something successful.
Removed by mod
Leftists have regularly been advocating for organizing:
The problem with liberals is that they still think the democrats are a path to progress, rather than slow death.
Cowbee I like the chart, but respectfully a lot of the rhetoric on ML instances reads closer to trolling than engaging to build a “sympathetic base” , just my 2 cents not worth much more than that ;-)
Every time I see Cowbee in a thread like this, it’s like I walked into a restaurant to see someone trying to explain to somebody else why their friend who just spat in their food is actually a cool dude doing great solidarity because the owners of the restaurant treat their employees poorly.
ML in my experience has very little to do with engaging with leftists and more to do with bashing the “decadent West.” Anytime I see memes.ml pop up in my feed, it’s a 50/50 shot between me finding something funny or something that makes me debate blocking the instance as much as I can at an account level.
I think what you’re describing is the difference between leftists shitposting online and actual real-life practice.
Lol you have not seen a single person say this, you’re just reaching into a grab bag of dialogue tropes you’ve heard in old movies or maybe a Red Alert game. Fucking nobody says “the decadent west” outside of Bond movies from 50 years ago. Quit lying.
Meme communities will be like that, right?
Why not block this community and engage with other communities in the instance?
I guess? I don’t think I’ve ever really stayed in a memes community where that’s the case, though on Reddit I was largely in places like egg_irl and traaa, where everything was focused around a shared experience of a minority group.
Besides, it’s not just the memes community, the memes is just where it appears the most blatantly and loudly. As the person above me said, it’s an instance wide thing. ML is nowhere near as bad as Hexbear (or I have yet to see any targeted harassment campaigns against an instance for failing a purity vibe check come from ML, at least) but, as they say, “nobody hates leftists more than other leftists.” Leftist spaces tend to have a bit of an undercurrent of only being welcoming to the “right kind of leftist.” I used “decadent West” up there very purposefully. There’s a bit of a vibe to ML that’s less “uniting various leftist groups” and more “preaching The Good Word to those poor ignorants” proselytizing.
Lemmy.ml isn’t an org, I’m not trying to suggest that it is. Leftists make memes and shitposts here, but when it comes to actual action, organizing in real life is always recommended.
Yes. Agree. And I would suggest it is counterproductive to the point of being counter-revolutionary.
A simulacrum mocking the landscape it seeks to map
I don’t agree with the idea that shitposting is counter-revolutionary. Seems a bit much.
No worries. But making a movement into a farce of itself and encouraging infighting is right out of the 1970s cointel playbook.
Even better if you can do the above to the point that the original ideology is no longer decently reflected in the current discourse
(Note this is consistent with most online leftists spaces, so not throwing specific shade on ML, and gets into a whole greater problem with the role social tech platforms play in shaping discourse)
I dunno, I just don’t see the same problems you do.
Fair.
Removed by mod
Your entire argument is based on the idea that shitposting online is the primary means by which leftists organize. I organize with a communist party in real life, online memes and shitposting are by no means what people advocate as “practice,” it’s just a thing to do in free time. Take a step back and rethink what you believe is going on.
Removed by mod
What on Earth are you talking about? All real communist orgs use online agitation, newsletters, social media, and more. I’m not saying that shitposting is valuable, I’m saying it’s not what I mean by practice. You’re deeply confused.
Removed by mod
It’s idiotic to suggest you stop debating. Theory isn’t optional. It’s the framework that separates effective action from performative gesture. You want to bypass clarification for the sake of “unity,” but that’s precisely how movements get absorbed, diverted, or broken. Action without theory isn’t courage it’s idiocy. And your theory contradicts itself: you call for a broad front while dismissing the most successful actually-existing socialist project that has lifted the most people from poverty, challenged imperialist containment most effectively, and created the most material space for the Global South. It’s incoherent nonsense. Also side note, but every single even semi successful revolution has been some flavour of Marxist Leninist, this clearly isn’t a fluke or luck.
You’re correct that shitposting alone achieves little. But a coalition that includes those who uphold the imperialist state achieves less. The Chinese revolution for example didn’t succeed by treating all anti-Japanese forces as equals. It succeeded by applying a materialist analysis to the principal contradiction at each stage, coordinating tactically when interests aligned, and never surrendering political independence. Unity isn’t an abstract good, it’s a conditional tool. Its value depends on clarity about objectives, adversaries, and the balance of forces.
So debate continues. Not for its own sake, but because sharpening theory is how you avoid repeating errors, co-optation, and strategic dead ends. You should organize with those who share a material commitment to dismantling imperialism, not just those who oppose fascism in the abstract. That isn’t sectarianism, it’s the precision necessary to build something successful.
I can’t see what you are replying to, but thanks for putting this down properly.