• socsa@piefed.social
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    5 days ago

    It’s not like China is going to stop making weapons if I refuse to make weapons.

      • socsa@piefed.social
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        5 days ago

        I suppose the difference is that a country doesn’t just get conquered by force if it stops polluting.

      • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        Almost all pollution is by industries and not your parents, so…

        If anything you could criticize them if they voted to keep the pollution going.

      • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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        5 days ago

        yeah this is a really stupid argument

        “It’s not like Israël is gonna stop killing Palestinians if I refuse to kill Palestinians”

        • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          I mean

          That’s true tho, pretty much nobody else murders Palestiniains but Israel still does.

          Change on all of these scales has to come from societies around the world, not from individuals.

          • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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            5 days ago

            pretty much nobody else murders Palestiniains but Israel still does.

            https://afsc.org/gaza-genocide-companies

            Shortly after Oct. 7, the U.S. government started transferring massive amounts of weapons to Israel. By Dec. 25, Israel received more than 10,000 tons of weapons in 244 cargo planes and 20 ships from the U.S. These transfers included more than 15,000 bombs and 50,000 artillery shells within just the first month and a half. These transfers have been deliberately shrouded in secrecy to avoid public scrutiny and prevent Congress from exercising any meaningful oversight. Between October and the beginning of March, the U.S. approved more than 100 military sales to Israel, but publicly disclosed only two sales. A list of known U.S. arms transfers is maintained by the Forum on the Arms Trade.

            Much of these weapons were purchased using U.S. taxpayers’ money through the Foreign Military Sales program, while some were direct commercial sales purchased through Israel’s own budget. An undisclosed amount of weapons was also transferred from U.S. military stockpiles already stored in Israel, known as War Reserves Stock Allies-Israel (WRSA-I). The use of WRSA-I to provide Israel with weapons serves to further obfuscate the full picture of U.S. arms transfers, as there is no public record of these stockpiles’ inventory.

            This is a form of corporate welfare not only for the largest weapons manufacturers, like Lockheed Martin, RTX, Boeing, and General Dynamics, which have seen their stock prices skyrocket, but also for companies that are not typically seen as part of the weapons industry, such as Caterpillar, Ford, and Toyota (see below).

            • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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              5 days ago

              I’m not saying the US government and US citizens aren’t contributing, but almost nobody, and I did specify that earlier, is going to get out of their chair, fly to Israel, and pull the trigger. At the end of the day, Israelis are the ones killing people no matter where the weapons come from. Whether or not each individual american decides to fly to palestine to commit a war crime doesn’t have any impact on the war crimes being committed: votes do.

              • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                5 days ago

                almost nobody, and I did specify that earlier, is going to get out of their chair, fly to Israel, and pull the trigger

                Why would you need to fly to Israel when you can pilot a drone bomber from Langley?

                • finitebanjo@lemmy.world
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                  4 days ago

                  The USA has admitted to using their own surveillance drones over Gaza, do you have a source on the USA troops or remotely operated equipment firing into Gaza?

                  • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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                    4 days ago

                    do you have a source on the USA troops or remotely operated equipment firing into Gaza?

                    Not without a security clearance.

          • stebo@lemmy.dbzer0.com
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            5 days ago

            yes but I’m saying that doesn’t mean you should just start killing Palestinians as well

    • jfrnz@lemm.ee
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      5 days ago

      Doesn’t make you any less responsible when the fruits of your labor are used to murder civilians.

        • jfrnz@lemm.ee
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          5 days ago

          That’s a harder question to answer and depends more on your own moral compass. Do you believe that having better defensive capabilities empowers the users of your creation to feel safe enough to do evil things? I certainly don’t think you could absolve the makers of anti-missile systems who supply militaries that are committing genocide.

          • stoicmaverick@lemmy.world
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            4 days ago

            How far down that chain do you want to go? A toolmaker who’s wears are used to build tanks? The US interstate system was originally a military project, are those construction workers complacent?

            • jfrnz@lemm.ee
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              3 days ago

              I try to stay practical about it. A screwdriver manufacturer is not an arms dealer. But if your work only has value in the violent world of war, then I think it’s worth asking yourself if you’re comfortable with that. I don’t always disparage people that are, even though I certainly couldn’t stomach it.

              My rule of thumb is to ask whether the defense industry is the only customer for the product. The company I work for does sell some to defense, but the products were not designed with defense as the primary purpose. It still doesn’t feel great to me, but I’m finding it increasingly difficult to avoid defense funding nowadays.

        • EtherWhack@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          A THAAD still could potentially be used for offense even though they don’t use any warheads.

          A better argument could be early warning systems, or even their space division where they may have NASA or ESA contracts. Products closer to scientific research, like the Osiris, crew capsules, or the lunar rover they are supposedly teamed up with GM to design.

    • frayedpickles@lemmy.cafe
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      5 days ago

      “I can’t force the world to behave as I would like it, so I may as well not have morals”

      • Valmond@lemmy.world
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        5 days ago

        You know, every country has an army. Either their own, or another country’s…

            • frayedpickles@lemmy.cafe
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              4 days ago

              But the only reason that’s true is because people like you insist on tribalism. Well our enemies who are 99.999% genetic identicals to us, just over that hill, have militaries and so we need one. And they have one because there is some asshole who is saying the same thing. As long as your first step is tribalism humanity will never get out of it’s current cesspool.

              • Valmond@lemmy.world
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                4 days ago

                “iTs YoUr FaULT” no it isn’t my fault psycopaths with delusions of grandeur wants to invade any country weak enough in their eyes.

                I actually don’t like it either but I’m still correct.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          5 days ago

          https://afsc.org/gaza-genocide-companies

          Between October and the beginning of March, the U.S. approved more than 100 military sales to Israel, but publicly disclosed only two sales. A list of known U.S. arms transfers is maintained by the Forum on the Arms Trade.

          Much of these weapons were purchased using U.S. taxpayers’ money through the Foreign Military Sales program, while some were direct commercial sales purchased through Israel’s own budget. An undisclosed amount of weapons was also transferred from U.S. military stockpiles already stored in Israel, known as War Reserves Stock Allies-Israel (WRSA-I). The use of WRSA-I to provide Israel with weapons serves to further obfuscate the full picture of U.S. arms transfers, as there is no public record of these stockpiles’ inventory.

          This is a form of corporate welfare not only for the largest weapons manufacturers, like Lockheed Martin, RTX, Boeing, and General Dynamics, which have seen their stock prices skyrocket, but also for companies that are not typically seen as part of the weapons industry, such as Caterpillar, Ford, and Toyota (see below).