Modlog: https://feddit.org/modlog/242334
Tl,dr: got a 3 day banned for pointing new joiners to !buyeuropean@feddit.uk , a more active version of !buyfromeu@feddit.org
Context
!buyeuropean@feddit.uk was established to promote European products and services. It got popular recently due to the US decision of potentially dropping support to Ukraine. It had a diverse team of moderators, and was getting some activity.
A feddit.org user (potentially unaware of the existence of the first community) decided to create !buyfromeu@feddit.org
They deleted their Lemmy account after, but promoted a new moderator before leaving.
This moderator created a post to vote about keeping the feddit.org community, or consolidating with the feddit.uk one: https://feddit.org/post/8679890
That vote itself is kind of debatable, as the only option to vote for the consolidation was to downvote, which is not enabled on instances like Blahaj or Reddthat. Also people tend to upvote more than downvote, so the votes expressed may not reflect the actual opinion of the community, but anyway.
Usually, I don’t really care that much about consolidation, there has been a lot of parallel communities for a while, like
- !android@lemmy.world and !android@lemdro.id
- !movies@lemm.ee and !movies@lemmy.world
- !privacy@lemmy.ml, !privacyguides@lemmy.one, !privacy@lemmy.world, !privacy@programming.dev, !privacy@lemmy.dbzer0.com
It’s not that big of a deal usually, but this case is a big different due to the BuyFromEU movement.
BuyfromEU movement and Lemmy new joiners
https://old.reddit.com/r/BuyFromEU/ is getting quite large recently, even getting some press coverage. There are a few posts promoting Lemmy over there, with more or less success.
What happens then is that people join Lemmy, just look for “buyfromeu” and find the feddit.org community, while the feddit.uk is actually much more active. Some stats:
- 1.04K users / day
- 2.34K users / week
- 3.02K users / month
- 3.02K users / 6 months
- 1.9K subscribers
- 125 Posts
- 1.34K Comments
- 3.79K users / day
- 8.11K users / week
- 8.86K users / month
- 8.92K users / 6 months
- 2.7K subscribers
- 354 Posts
- 5.58K Comments
The main issue with this is that as the usually is kind of active, they think that the feddit.org community is the main community on the topic, while the feddit.uk is much more active. So I started to check for new joiners account, and if they hadn’t posted or commented on the feddit.uk community, I would point them to it, with comments like
Welcome here!
A few pointers for you:
The sidebar also lists a few complementary communities to this one, such as !buyeuropean@feddit.uk or !europe@feddit.org
Apparently this seems enough to give a temporary ban. The mod team is also quite expressive about the “consolidation cannot be discussed stance” https://feddit.org/post/8905532
Just to add some more context, those are the type of comments I give to every new joiners. Some recent examples
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/17196236
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/17196078
- https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/comment/17196020
Now, a last section about why I’m personally in favor of consolidating.
Federation and decentralization is about spreading power and responsibilities, not splitting a small user base between different places
Some people argue that consolidating communities goes against the spirit of federation and decentralization. However, for people posting content, there is a consensus that our small user base can only sustain so many communities. Splintering the discussion between places is detrimental to the whole platform. Example of recent consolidations:
In the buyfromEU / buyEuropean case, we see people asking recommendations on the same topics on the two communities, while they might have seen a post from the other one is there was only one: https://feddit.org/post/8925080/5204057
Note that there are cases when new communities need to emerge due to power tripping mods. But here, the feddit.uk mods and admins have been good, no such issue to be reported.
Also, quite a few communities are “the main ones”, without any parallel community
Choice overload and decision fatigue are a thing
Too many options hurts users’ decision-making ability. How they feel about the experience as a whole can be significantly impacted as a result.
https://lawsofux.com/choice-overload/
Isn’t one for European Union and the other for the whole Europe?
The text what to expect says, that we are focusing on the EU, but if other befriended countries slip through we are not enforcing rules. We called it a soft limit, so pepole tend to limit themselves, rather than mods jumping each post.
https://feddit.org/comment/5211878
Due to the inherited name, buyFromEU we would like to soft limit the discussion to the European Union countries. We are tempted to read this as EU + friendly countries as long as this is within reason.
https://feddit.org/post/8545702
Wouldn’t consolidating lose people?
An example of successful consolidation/migration: https://lemmy.world/c/football
Shouldn’t people see the other community from the sidebar?
Sidebars aren’t usually visible on a lot of apps, on Voyager for instance people have to actively look for it:
https://vger.app/search/lemm.ee/c/buyfromeu@feddit.org
Why is this case different from other parallel communities?
Due to the growth of the /r/BuyFromEU sub (now at 148000 subscribers), some posts promoting Lemmy are appearing every few days: https://old.reddit.com/r/BuyFromEU/comments/1j7vkrg/the_european_hosted_reddit_alternative_lemmee_is/
As you can see, the main comment is about community split across instances. The commenter was incorrect about the working of federation, but us being unable to provide one community for the discussions to happen isn’t putting Lemmy in a good light as a viable Reddit alternative.
Finally, feddit drama! Now I feel right at home.
Enjoy!
Can I interest you in !fedidrama@lemmy.ca?
Wasn’t it !fediverselore@lemmy.ca ?
On yeah, that first one needs new Mods.
It would appear that sub’s not ready yet.
You are only guessing based on the title across the top of the page.
Some people can’t gey away from the centralised mindset. Why not both instances? That’s the essence of the Fediverse!? It’s not a zero sum game, unless I’m missing something…
You aren’t missing anything, especially if they have different contexts.
The only issue I see is that when the same articles are posted to different communities the discussion is split. But that also happens for similar, but not identical posts even within the same community when they are posted hours apart.
especially if they have different contexts.
What is the different context between the two communities in this case?
Well, they’re on different websites, for one. That context, despite what many here want to believe, is meaningful.
I was speaking in general, not this exact scenario.
But if they merged, all posts on the topic are at the mercy of the instance admins and mods. So if a community for buy EU was on an instance that limited all posts to English, users wouldn’t be able to post in German like they can on feddit.org. not saying the UK would do that, but it would apply to an all English instance. Or the posts could be in the context of the instance location. Like a similar community on lemmy.ca would probably be focused on buying from the EU with the context of shipping to Canada.
No, I won’t be spending my time finding the ratio of these two exact communities because I am disagreeing with the need to consolidate in general.
not saying the UK would do that
We won’t.
That will work itself out over time.
A lot of people get ants in their pants over the idea of people talking about the same or similar things in different places, for some reason. Decentralization’s just a buzz word, I guess.
Decentralization’s just a buzz word, I guess.
That’s why communities should be evenly split amongst instances. There’s no need to fragment the conversation unless the 2 or more communities have differing cultures.
PTB. Leaving a comment like this doesn’t hurt anyone, even if it’s on every post. The mod just doesn’t want to lose power.
Yeah I’d say PTB. They’re more interested in maintaining control, than what’s good for the users and community.
But here, the feddit.uk mods and admins have been good, no such issue to be reported.
Phew.
😄
I’m a good girl. I swear!
You have the Blaze Mark of Approval - it doesn’t get better than that.
It’s recommended in the sidebar? And you got banned for quoting that??
With all due respect to the other mod, i’m going with PTB.
PTB.
Ideally the communities should be consolidated in this case. But if they aren’t (e.g. they’re geared towards different target audiences), there’s no harm on linking one from another.
Clearly consolidation is a bad idea here. Feddit.org community mods are idiots unfit for modding.
We need decentralization to fight these clowns
Oof, that is really unfortunate behaviour there. I know moderating can be tough and sometimes emotionally charged, but this really seems like overstepping their boundaries to the detriment of the community. Especially considering I know how much work you have been and are doing for fediverse growth and content.
Also, might be interesting to crosspost this to !fediverselore@lemmy.ca - although the community there can sometimes flipflop from actually interesting and insightful to slightly toxic.
Thank you for your comment!
Fediverselore rules prevents posting about events you are involved in
PTB, banning people for sharing alternatives is shitty and comes off as you trying to gatekeep your community and prevent people from learning about alternatives.
Also since @a887dcd7a@feddit.org decided to comment, it doesn’t matter if the Rest of the team agreed with you or not, that just makes all of you PTB as well. The fact this was even considered as a good idea and implemented to suppress knowledge of alternatives makes it PTB.
If anyone is reading this, stay away from that mod’s shithole and go to !buyeuropean@feddit.uk instead. It’s more active and isn’t run by PTBs.
Yeah PTB
That’s a shame. I’m guessing the new sudden mod responsibilities went to somebody who isn’t ready for it.
Honest question: why can’t both communities just exist separately? Isn’t this the magic of the Fediverse?
Your biggest point is that the communities are identical in content and I disagree. Just looking at the top posts of the week, the feddit.uk version has a bunch of memes, while feddid.org seems more news focused. The Fediverse allows us to moderate these communities differently and to have different styles of communities, perfectly shown with this example. They are not identical.
We shouldn’t build up just one community all the time. That just runs into the same problem why people disliked reddit: centralized moderation. It’s not a problem now, but if it ever will be, why can’t there be alternatives. Let’s not try to become the next reddit, but become something better.
Also some people left reddit because it all became to big, they want small groups that actually feel like a community. If people prefer a smaller lemmy community, let them have it. They voted against merging, so let them have it. !buyeuropean@feddit.uk is already linked in their sidebar. Everybody that wants to can switch the community or subscribe to both (which is a possibility!!).
I think you’re in the wrong here, at least on trying to grow the uk community over the org one.
They are not identical.
People posting to both communities without distinction seems to indicate they are identical
You would not see such things happening on !politics@hexbear.net and !politics@lemmy.world
Let’s not try to become the next reddit, but become something better.
We are not the same Reddit because admins don’t have absolute power: https://lemmy.blahaj.zone/post/18234778
It’s everyone keeping everyone in check, with meta communities like the ones we’re in keeping balance.
having some similarities does not make them identical. having all similarities makes them identical. having one community generate traffic and distractions with memes does make a big difference.
both communities should coexist. siphoning users from one to another community is a dickmove. however, i expect most users to be smart enough to just join both. i think a 3 day ban is not the end of the world, especially since you make it sound like your only input in their community was advertising for another community. i guess nothing of value was lost on that front and it had a nice side effect sparking this discussion.
i think posting your issue in this community here is also a dickmove.
maybe you should contact the mods privately and talk with THEM on that matter. i think your comment was phrased fairly and did not really say “hey, leave this community and join us!” - so i think it is worth trying to find a solution.
Not PTB, and not quite YDI.
your history of trying to consolidate communities to external instances (such as our wonderful privacy discussion) may irk moderators. You are the number 1 community dissolver on lemmy. Especially when you cross post someone’s post from community A to community B and siphon the user activity by being the more recent post.
A moderator may not agree with your consolidation choices (i.e. they like the TOS on a different instance) and reasonably see your actions as a net negative.
I think its more fair to do community competition through better and more frequent content. Reposting content to your favored community (i.e. top post content jacking), and going into other communities to direct users to your favored community isn’t very nice.
Hello,
such as our wonderful privacy discussion
Sorry, I don’t remember, is it this one? https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/35817877
your history of trying to consolidate communities to external instances (such as our wonderful privacy discussion) may irk moderators. You are the number 1 community dissolver on lemmy.
These days it’s usually @threelonmusketeers@sh.itjust.works : https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/post/39673185?scrollToComments=true
they like the TOS on a different instance
Indeed, that’s what’s happening with !linux@programming.dev vs !linux@lemmy.ml. What differences are they here between feddit.org and feddit.uk
I think its more fair to do community competition through better and more frequent content.
Counterpoint: to bring regular posters, you need activity. With only so many people posting on Lemmy, activity can only happen in one place at the same time.
- !fediverse@lemmy.world
- !europe@feddit.org
- !gardening@lemmy.world Don’t have competing communities, as the network effect made theme “the one place” on the topic
After reading from thier mod, you just seem to be acting out. Delete this post because it really makes you look bad to the informed.
Not sure what do to with someone’s modlog shows repeated insults in different communities: https://lemmy.dbzer0.com/modlog?userId=1746189
Wow some real toxic behaviour there, best to ignore Breezy
He is an online tough guy
Not at all. Its nice you would speak so highly of me though. Thank you.
If im toxic then you’re just a little snowflake. You cant tell me looking at that link that im too bad. Yeah ill say some shit, but im not like offense or anything bad. People can cry all they want or be a bitch and try to showcase my bad behavior but im actually one of the best people to find online. So please tell me what I said that was so bad. Because honestly you just seem like a shill.
Oh wow i didnt know you could do that. But yup im rude as fuck, thats why im saying you’re looking bad.
It’s one click in newer versions of Lemmy
The feature gets used quite often, it helps to identify who you are dealing with
Well this post will help others not to give a shit about what you say then. No offense really.
What app do you use?
Default Lemmy web page
I dont have a pc so im stuck on mobile. Its a shame that feature seems realy cool
You can use the web page on mobile.
YDI.
Not because you’re wrong about consolidating communities, and not even because you were trying to get people to move to the other comm; but because you’re doing it in the least communal and democratic way possible, and for your disregard for the mod team and community’s collective intent. I think the mod team handled this pretty well.
These kinds of crusades are antithetical to the spirit of the fediverse, and I really wish this community didn’t attract so many Don Quixote-types fighting windmills.
but because you’re doing it in the least communal and democratic way possible, and for your disregard for the mod team and community’s collective intent.
Reddit mods use the exact same reasoning when removing posts mentioning Lemmy
And we don’t usually get to see the receipts, but this time we do.
It’s one thing to make mention of or recommend another community, it’s another to spend your time flooding their threads with it repeatedly, even when asked to stop. What starts as impassioned advocacy can quickly turn into harassment and spam, and I think you crossed that line.
It should be evident just in the way you wrote an entire wiki article in this post - they were right to temporarily remove you from this conversation. If you only go there to dissolve their community, they have every right to kick you out of it.
