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The US University experience
Excuse me. They have a women. This is clearly a DEI group of fascist.
Hey ya know, just how it be sometimes
Estonian here, first Yank* scientist on Lemmy to come work at University of Tartu gets a beer on me. Note that when I say “come work at” I mean I live in the city, not that I work at the university too. I dropped out after a semester and a half lol
* Yank refers to the entire USA here, though younger generations don’t use it much. You could be from Texas or California and still be a Yankee.
Same in Finland: a Californian or a Hawaiian is a Yankee (in Finnish: jenkki) here.
I love Tartu, but last I heard, the pay and funding sucked. How is it now?
Apparently it’s only good if you get good grants and scheme around with the money.
According to this professors and above make pretty good money for Tartu cost of living, assuming you’re not trying to support an entire family on a single salary.
Really, it’s a place you could move to for the vibes, but it won’t be the best place to make money.
This is amazing for us in Europe, bring all the educated ones and leave the Trumpers there
Fully onboard with this, welcome to Spain amigo.
well to some of us americans, who can’t leave, this is horrible… but logical….
the last thing i want is all the reasonable people to leave, and be stuck with these fuxks….i kinda wonder now, how much did people fleeing nazi germany contributed to them solidifying power?
It’s kinda funny, this is what Texas did to Oklahoma in regards to our teachers. Put up billboards saying that they paid more in Texas. It’s depressing but it worked lol.
oklahoma wasn’t great before that, but at least it was OK…
Take this up vote and GO
I mean I imagine most people leaving would still keep American citizenship and therefore still be able to vote. Unless they decide to end their citizenship which some might but I imagine most people would still want to keep that option open.
It’s worth noting, keeping your citizenship means paying US federal income taxes, regardless of where you live and work.
Most places have double tax agreements with the US. They’ll be reporting their income to the US, but only paying tax to the US on money earned in the US, from shares for example
The world is looking to China too, their sciences are blossoming. Exciting times ahead while Americans decide who they are and want to be and eventually go through their own Enlightenment. Things are bad now, but tyrants always fall eventually. I think we are entering a sort of golden age for science.
Pity they leave the nukes there, for a bunch of rabid capitalist morons
except they need the same experts to maintain nukes, Nukes have a “expiration date”, they want it to mostly become like russia, where all the money goes to oligarches.
Orange Diaper is burning my country’s goodwill to the ground and I’m so happy to see the rest of the world telling us to fuck off, and more importantly fucking with Americas wallet.
Consequences for bad behavior is the only way it ever gets corrected.
It’s like someone wished for more European defense spending but to the monkey’s paw
The US wants better European militaries in case we can’t help or share, not because we want to flat out refuse to help or share
The US wants better European militaries in case we can’t help or share
Instructions unclear, got weapons to defend against the US instead…
Suddenly nobody wants an F-35 anymore.
Maybe if things go poorly Europe will have to come liberate you guys and spread some democracy.
My daughter is about 2 years from graduating high school, and even before Trump came into office I was urging her to consider non-US colleges. Mostly because she wants to go into medicine and our healthcare system has been broken for much longer than I can remember. But also the rise of Fox News (and others) getting away with stating provable lies as fact, Joe Rogan, et al. showed that there has been an inflection point and the country is being led around by the dumbest of us.
She’s fluent in Spanish, though jumping straight into a medical program would introduce a lot of new specialized words, and might be to much. We’re starting to look into options though.
College introduces a lot of new words in general. It is what it’s for, plus, she will be in pre-med. Go for the Spanish route. She will flourish. :) Spain is so lovely. I hope I can land something there next.
Ugh, Spain is amazing. I dream of that country.
Specially in smaller cities away of the big two.
Working in Rota was absolutely frustrating trying to get anything done
Very true. If she’s up for the challenge I really want her to do that. I’d love more reasons to go to Spain.
Medical English is largely stripped-down Latin, I wonder how similar medical Spanish is
The technical terms are very similar. The only issue would be the colloquial terms.
I mean English is sorta the science lingua franca so I imagine most of the technical words would be lone words if they showed up in a paper first.
*loan words, as they were loaned to the language in question.
I interpreted it as meaning lone words as in only a few here and there.
You’re too generous 😅
We interact with people from numerous Spanish speaking countries as part of an intern program, and the one thing every new group says is how funny each other’s slang sounds to the rest of the group. She might have a rough month or two, but then I think it would be fairly smooth after that.
Healthcare in the US is terrible, but part of that is how much providers can charge. Healthcare providers aren’t able to charge as much in communities where it’s considered a basic human right. If she practices outside the US her earnings will probably not be as high - and thats even considering the insurance healthcare providers need to carry to account for lawsuits.
The biggest problem in the US is how the insurance companies insert themselves between the doctor and patient, and tell you what services you’re allowed to receive without even being in the room for the diagnosis.
They look like they’re being told to smile or a family member will be killed.
I’ve spoken to some Fins and it’s being that close to another human being causing that.
/S but only slightly
They sound like my kind of people. Time to look into graduate school in Finland
There was a meme picture of a Finnish bus stop with people queueing leaving about 1-2m between each person. When it was still current, I asked some friends of mine about it and they said “yeah, we definitely like our personal space”, especially out in the countryside.
At the time of the pandemic it was hard for us Finns, as they said we should be 2 meters away from each other. Too close!
As a Finn I can confirm this.
I guess they’re just not actors
I’m from Finland. It’s late winter now. It’s not Smiling Season yet.
Yeah, but it’ll be a random family member - not necessarily a woman or LGBTQ+.
No no the guy is making a face like “I came here to fart don’t follow me” and she’s all “I came here to smell it”
It’s AI generated, isn’t it?
Kinda small on my phone but I don’t think so. Most ai stuff looks more air brushed and the light is usually weird. This has skin imperfections and clothes wrinkles that look very real.
Living somewhere else is quite tempting in a grass is greener way, but it feels like moving out of my house because of pests. What I’d really rather do is eradicate the pests and get my home back. Even if I move, how long until I have to suffer new pests? Meanwhile the more sane of the two completely out of touch parties that comprise my government are like my housemate, and they keep leaving food wrappers and shit all over the place and they refuse to call an exterminator because it would be “cruel”. But these no-kill traps ain’t doing shit. Figuratively speaking, of course.
Sometimes you gotta move out and leave your roommate alone in the mess, for them to hopefully realize that they are the problem
Meanwhile the Trump administration has asked Australian academics to justify that their US-funded research lines up with Conservative values
Their schools were already orders of magnitude cheaper. Get ready for extreme brain drain!
I’m hoping to get into a pretty well regarded game dev school in Sweden that is $25k USD for the entire degree. Comparing it with anything similar in the US is mind boggling. Schools here are impossibly expensive
That’s still pricey imo
University in Sweden is free for swedish citizens, it used to be free for foreign students as well, but since some years ago the universities are allowed to put fees on foreign students. Dont remember the exact details of how it works. Edit: looked it up, still free for people from EU, EES and Switzerland, and people living in Sweden with a resident permit.
I was around when they introduced it. They basically killed some programs because it went from a few students to none. Because why would you pay for a Swedish uni noone heard of instead of a bit more for a famous uni. It was a stupid policy.
To be fair, I see the argument. It is tax-paid, so you want to reserve it for people who are likely to pay future taxes.
Why are rich expats more likely to pay taxes in sweden in the future than expats who could not afford tuition?
They are not, which is why they charge them upfront. But people with a residence permit or citizenship are much more likely to stay long-term.
I have no strong opinion whether that is the right choice, tbh. I see it at my Uni, a lot of foreign students study here and the majority then leaves the country again. Which is fair, but the idea of tax-funded education is, well, it’s tax-funded, so I am more or less directly paying for their education. Is that good/bad/worth it or not? I’m not sure.
Also, I feel like the majority of foreign students that come here just for a degree are already from wealthy backgrounds. I know I’m on dangerous “feelings, not facts” territory, but I get a lot of “rich kid who didn’t get into a good uni in their home country” vibes. The poorer foreign students are usually super smart and got in via a scholarship or the likes.
Yeah, if it’s free for your citizens it has to be free for all EU citizens. Getting in can be tricky though.
Oh nice! Get yourself a permit!
Future games, innit? The one the ceo of the company that made It Takes Two finished?
It’s mind boggling to me that this school exists. I mean they have the achievements of the alumni to schow, so good for them.
But still it’s a paid school for game dev, famous for crunch, and worse salary than “normal” dev. So not only will you work more, and earn less, you also have to pay for your studies, since standard CS is free.
I didn’t look at the curriculum of the game dev school but from my personal experience studying CS I would say that what you learn there isn’t really comparable to CS besides the programming part
Agreed, and I kind of wish CS and game dev weren’t considered so similar. They both program, sure, and those skills can be moved.
Go ask a Microsoft dev to explain game theory, hotkey availability, and UX. Then, ask a game dev the same questions. You’ll get wildly different answers because they wildly different goals
This is why the tradeification of engineering should be viewed with skepticism. An engineering degree should give you a strong technical background in computing, physics, math, and software without over-specializing. You are meant to learn specific tradecraft on the job.
Having over a 25 year career done development in all kinds of areas including gamedev, there is quite a big difference in way of thinking and doing stuff between anything with user interaction and server-side stuff, and gamedev specifically also differs a lot from the rest of areas of user-facing software because it’s very performance oriented, way closer to the bare metal than the rest (in smartphone apps you’re working on top of libraries on top of libraries on top of libraries, in gamedev you make GPU shaders in a variant of C which very tightly tied to the specifics of how that hardware works), and each game is pretty much a unique user interface in programming terms (i.e. there much less reusability, especially of assets, than in say web or smartapp development).
(I mean, in server-side stuff you’re for example worrying about transactional integrity during database access, system design for balanced distributed handling of requests or networked access to APIs exposed via REST interfaces, whilst in in gamedev you’re for example doing vector maths to project a user click on the screen onto a game plane in the 3D universe, moving the bones in 3D models to animate them and writting shaders to produce effects like a 3D model being consumed from the point of impact when hit by a shot.
Mind you, for me personally all of them are cool challenges (which is probably why I’m one of those unusal developers who is generic to the point of sillyness) but they’re definitelly very different, even in the kinds of architectural approaches used for the software being developed.
And that’s not even to mention security. I’m in a CS course right now, and sure we talk about cyber security and social networking and blah blah blah.
Go ask a game dev about their security patches and you’ll see the WORLD of difference in the two spaces
Oh, man, yes.
I’ve spent more of my career doing server-side stuff than other areas and it’s like night and day when it comes to IT security between server-side dev and gamedev, probably because server-side is networked and generally is done for much more important targets (valuable data and even actual financial assets of big companies, rather than an individual’s game state or machine) so there a big expectation that the best external attackers (and a veritable army of script kiddies) will be hammering at anything a server-side component exposes via a network interface, trying to hack it.
Mind you, I still bitched and moaned at the lack of IT Security awareness of some of my colleagues when I was doing server side stuff :)
I’m a little confused here, I’m not EU/Swedish citizen wouldn’t any of my studies require me to pay? I care about money very little which is part of why I’ve been feeling so soul sucked at my current job. I’ve only been here for money for a bit now and I hate it. In a lot of ways I’d rather just be poor. I was happier when I was working for like 1/5 what I make now but felt excited about what I did
I love games and game making. I’ve been skirting around the industry for over 15 years at this point and haven’t been able to crack in yet. Future Games, or any of the schools I’ve applied to, is an opportunity to be on a visa for nearly the entire trump term and hopefully network enough to land a job after school. So I’m not just paying for education I’m paying for my own safety
The crunch is for real but also the job culture in the US is batshit. My first job out of college I ended up pulling 16 hour days 7 days/week. Everywhere here it is expected you’re going to do more work than you’re paid for or you risk getting fired. Crunch time in Sweden sounds like normal time in the US tbh
Completely free. Kind of. It’s like less than €200 a year to study at a university in Finland.
This is true only for students from the EU/ETA area: for students from outside it is a minimum of 1500€/year to study in a school of higher education.
Which is still cheap for many Americans.
So the cost of like one class in the US.
better than the states, even at a cheap states its still thousands of USD per semester, and not a whole year, plus COL.
Haven’t European schools been cheaper since like the 80s tho?
Yep
So I would think the brain drain would have happened a long time ago, like back in the 90s. Sadly, most of us Americans will just keep paying more and more for stuff rather than give any of it up.
It isn’t an active choice. Moving to Europe is not an option for most Americans.
Is there a reason for it or is this just internalised american exceptionalism?
Edit: There was a misunderstanding, and I was rude here.
Ok. I must have failed to formulate my question properly. I’m sorry for that. Let me try again. I know moving is expansive, takes much of time and is really exhausting. But the post talks about scientists. The little interaction I had with scientists have led me to the believe, that it is much more easy for scientists to move even across nations and even across continents. You said moving is no option for americans. Why is that?
The message “america is best” used to be shouted everywhere they had a chance. It might be bullshit, but say it enough and it sticks.
Then again, the scars that the nazi’s left behind are still visible. With how recent that was back in the 90’s I wouldn’t blame people for being careful. Moving countries isn’t a thing most people do every few decades.
It is quite hard to even get accepted to a foreign undergrad program out of high school. Grad school is a bit easier but it’s still difficult and traditionally there is just enormous amounts of money in the US academic system so going abroad really needs to be something you prioritize. Also many US grad students don’t pay tuition for PhD track programs. You get an assistantship with a stipend.
You get paid for doing a PhD in Europe, too. Also, teams tend to be very international, sometimes majority or even exclusively so.
So if students from third-world countries can come over regularly with few issues to live and work here, I wonder what’s holding back Americans.
This feels sad on the surface, as an American who went to college 25 years ago and is used to seeing people from around the world move here to learn, teach, start businesses, etc.
But giving it any real thought, damn it, it is much better for humanity this way. Climate change isn’t going to pause while the world watches us collapse.
our 4-year university, actually state is actually suffering from low-enrollment issues, its getting so serious as of recently they have slash faculty and “less important classes”: and the faculties getting canned said it was “birth rates”, i was commenting on the sub, said it was HCOL, and low job prospects.
many state Uni in our area also have big problems too. its likely stemmed from covid, where everyone had a shitty education from classes being online only, cant really learn anything if you cant ask in person questions. although i think covid just unmasked systemic issues going before the pandemic. ive seen disasstisfied reviews on yelp going back 2016. i was curious after graduation if any universities had yelp reviews they all did.
Is this why Elon is pushing for anti-immigration parties in the EU? He doesn’t want people to leave?
Of course he doesn’t want people to leave, how can he be king if all his serfs leave?
And as far as I’ve seen the numbers it’s working too. Anywhere in Europe that is academic or sciency is seeing record numbers of Americans applying. The brain drain will be real.
It has already been happening for several years now, it’s just accelerated since Trump. Even before his first term there was a “negative brain drain” of educated workers no longer coming into the US because the benefits (paid time off, health care, etc) are so much worse compared to other countries, even when considering the higher pay. America used to rely on a steady stream of incoming highly educated workers.
But now there is a huge amount of well established academics leaving for Canada, EU, or anywhere else that will pay them. I work in a physics department at a large R1 university in a very liberal state, and we are losing 4 (that I know of) high regarded professors just this year alone moving to other countries.
The brain drain is here, and won’t be reversing course even if Trump suddenly disappears. We would have to completely change how we reward work and our failing healthcare system for anything to change.
Makes sense. This is doing decades of damage. Plenty of past groundbreaking research came out of the US. But I get it. I wouldn’t want to move to the US either for very much the same reasons. Lack of affordable healthcare, lack of paid holidays and gun safety would be the main reasons. Lack of food regulation would also be a concern. And now the current regime and the way too large chunk of the population that still seems happy with it means we put even tourist travel plans to the US on hold. Too scary at the moment. Trying to help the best I can from here, but there’s only so much you can do at a distance.
its also very hard to get hired as faculty as colleges because of the limited space, alot of people graduaitng in the us with a undergrad thinks thier career path is a PHD, but its too competitive because tenures arnt leaving until thier dead, plus university can be stingy and hiring cheap temporary instructors,. also getting grad degrees are expensive and not easy too. oh yea i also hear about hte lack of wet lab experience before graduating with your undergrad degree, plus the amount of papers people are doing to get noticed by a university on thier CV. when i was in undergrad i was in a talk where the announcer said the professor attending today has to write dozens of research papers just to get hired. and then theres the complaint about quality of said research paper too.
im curious are they moving to other countries because “insurance, pay, politics”?
It’s already happened in Florida and Idaho at least, Idaho lost a huge amount of medical professionals thanks to RvW and state passed open ended and vague laws. Florida lost just about all their teachers DeSantis is stuffing schools with sycophants with little to no education and no teaching credentials. We’re already losing.
All numbers I’ve seen for record applications were for high level research and university level teaching. Maybe the medical doctors mainly moved states? At least I haven’t seen them making headlines about moving to Europe.
Many are leaving teaching all together, it’s a huge problem that’s going to have far reaching consequences for a lot more than 4 years. While they might not all leave the US, they are no longer teaching or practicing medicine in hostile states, Idaho has been forced to shut down hospitals and medical services.
Here in rural CA we’re also seeing medical access dwindle. A lot of things people don’t realize have changed are very drastic, being older I remember not even needing to think about buying produce and inspection it for bugs or rotting. Now, you have to check, and if you aren’t washing everything before you put it away from the store you are getting bugs. It’s gonna happen reliably, many services and newly built things seem shotty and badly done. We have been running out of competency for some time now, and if you’ve been alive long enough were clearly in decline.
Sadly a lot if not most of these changes will take generations to reverse. It’s the sad reality of things.
The main good thing I am taking from the news currently is that as far as I can tell the people won’t accept this for very long. Can’t quite yet tell how or what will happen, but I’d be surprised if the current regime are still in power in the same way 1-2 years from now. The protest are amping up at an intense speed, the videos coming out of the few republicans still giving town halls feel like the crowd is a pot about to boil over.
Yeah, hopefully, but Americans are really bad at fighting back, and easily swayed with very dubious conceits.
I don’t know. It takes a while to get organized but I have confidence that they’ll get there. At least based on what I’m seeing at the moment. Could obviously still just slowly die down again. Time will tell.
It low-key reads like one of those “lonely singles in your area” ads.
Yeah, I good with the message, but that’s one of the most uncomfortable looking photos I’ve seen. Where are they supposed to be looking?
Emotional, fucking, damage.
Why would Americans feel emotional damage from this? They have freedom to be Christian, and self reliant, and proud.
Say less, I’m omw
