Four people were injured Sunday afternoon at a Brooklyn subway stop in what started as officers’ attempts to apprehend a man accused of skipping the station turnstile.
Yes, firing a gun in a crowded subway station is absolutely in the wrong, as we can see by the three innocent people shot, one in the head. There are police forces across the world trained to deal with assailants with deadly weapons including knives without shooting them. It’s reasonable to expect the NYPD to have the same level of training and judgement.
No, there aren’t “police forces across the world trained to deal with people with deadly weapons”. They are trained to save themselves first and foremost. Same as firemen aren’t trained to run into a burning building heroically grabbing the puppy / family member and carrying them out. Paramedics too. This is the reality - nobody is required to give their lives up / risk their lives to save someone else’s.
Honestly? The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe. US police are far too afraid for their own safety, and automatically reach for their gun when they think there might be the slightest minor chance that they could be in a little bit of danger.
If being in dangerous situations makes you open fire in a crowd of random innocent people, then you should not be a cop. Cops need to learn to accept the risks they signed up for, de-escalate, and protect the public before they obsess over protecting themselves. I know protecting the public is not technically their job, but opening fire in a crowded subway is laughably irresponsible, and should be an immediate fireable offense.
The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe. … they think there might be the slightest minor chance that they could be in a little bit of danger.
I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment that police need better de-escalation training and non-lethal defense weapons - but you need to seriously re-examine your perception of how dangerous a knife attack is. Please don’t trivialize it just to make a point, because it undermines your own credibility and weakens your otherwise reasonable argument.
That’s a fair point, I appreciate it. Knives are a dangerous weapon, no doubt about it. They just don’t represent the same level of danger as a loaded gun. But your point is well taken.
I always have this link ready to go, because you would be totally reasonable in assuming it’s their main job, but our lovely Supreme Court says otherwise.
I come from an over-policed city, where I am genuinely afraid of every cop I see, because of stories just like this.
So you don’t think cops should be required to gauge the risk to the public before they gauge the risk to themselves? They chose a dangerous career, and seem unwilling to accept the risks that come along with it. A knife is less dangerous than a loaded gun, I don’t think that’s a controversial thing to say.
I’m not saying the police were perfect here, but someone attacking you with a knife isn’t something that “might” kill you, it’s an incredibly dangerous situation that presents an immediate danger to your life.
Honestly, some of the comments here are so detached from reality it’s incredible.
Cops are too quick to use violence. That’s just a sad reality. Violence is not necessarily the correct response to a violent situation. There are ton of techniques to deescalate even the most violent and dangerous situations. Granted, the NYPD isn’t trained in those techniques, so that’s a big problem, but the cops put the public in more danger than the danger the cops faced by this one violent individual. Personally, I would rather the police put public safety above all else, including themselves. I know asking anyone to put themselves at risk to protect another person is a lot to ask, but if cops aren’t willing to do that, then it comes down to us. And in that case, what are the cops for?
but the cops put the public in more danger than the danger the cops faced by this one violent individual.
I’m not sure that’s the case here actually, it sounds to me like it was only a matter of time before this person went off on someone if they were so quick to pull a knife on the police.
Fair, I play more RPGs and whatnot where a knife takes 4 years to injure someone. (Though, a bad sword can take just as long because, I dunno, it’s too dull to chop through this peasant’s leather tunic? Goddamnit Ultima.)
They have tasers, which didn’t work. Then move to pepper spray to blind the person and batons to subdue them.
Other countries where guns are uncommon but knife attacks are more common they have long hooked poles to capture someone. That’s impractical to carry so wouldn’t have been available in this situation but it is a tool that can be used when called out to a knife threat.
The problem here is the response doesn’t match the crime (fare avoidance) and doesn’t match the threat either. If the only solution you have for littering is to blow up a city then its time to step back and rethink the problem.
Three innocent people injured, months of investigation, and millions in lawsuit settlements. This is a failure of the officers but also a failure in training them how to respond.
A lot of people have a totally black and white view of the world, and they will never admit that, occasionally, the group they hate isn’t totally in the wrong. It’s kinda sad actually.
I’d like to think it’s just because online skews young. I remember (with some shame) my stupid teenage anarchist days. Though I do worry that if I had, as so many do nowadays, ensconced myself only in views with which I agreed, maybe I wouldn’t have grown out of it. The more smart people you meet, disagree with and learn from, well, the bigger and more interesting your world becomes.
I love the idea of Lemmy but goddamn, a good chunk of our userbase need to grow up and I’m not sure they ever will.
This is as reckless as cops getting into high speed pursuits. And the whole death could had been avoided if they didnt waste everyones time cracking down on a train fare.
Nah, it’s definitely the police in the wrong here.
Yes, firing a gun in a crowded subway station is absolutely in the wrong, as we can see by the three innocent people shot, one in the head. There are police forces across the world trained to deal with assailants with deadly weapons including knives without shooting them. It’s reasonable to expect the NYPD to have the same level of training and judgement.
No, there aren’t “police forces across the world trained to deal with people with deadly weapons”. They are trained to save themselves first and foremost. Same as firemen aren’t trained to run into a burning building heroically grabbing the puppy / family member and carrying them out. Paramedics too. This is the reality - nobody is required to give their lives up / risk their lives to save someone else’s.
They tried to Taser the guy twice.
Just out of interest, what would you have done differently?
Honestly? The guy had a knife, which might have injured one of the cops, maybe. US police are far too afraid for their own safety, and automatically reach for their gun when they think there might be the slightest minor chance that they could be in a little bit of danger.
If being in dangerous situations makes you open fire in a crowd of random innocent people, then you should not be a cop. Cops need to learn to accept the risks they signed up for, de-escalate, and protect the public before they obsess over protecting themselves. I know protecting the public is not technically their job, but opening fire in a crowded subway is laughably irresponsible, and should be an immediate fireable offense.
I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment that police need better de-escalation training and non-lethal defense weapons - but you need to seriously re-examine your perception of how dangerous a knife attack is. Please don’t trivialize it just to make a point, because it undermines your own credibility and weakens your otherwise reasonable argument.
That’s a fair point, I appreciate it. Knives are a dangerous weapon, no doubt about it. They just don’t represent the same level of danger as a loaded gun. But your point is well taken.
Removed by mod
I always have this link ready to go, because you would be totally reasonable in assuming it’s their main job, but our lovely Supreme Court says otherwise.
Edit: here’s a non-paywalled link
Removed by mod
Right? Genuinely unbelievable.
It should be yes, but it’s not.
Where do people like you even come from?
Also, they tasered the guy twice before finally shooting him, so they didn’t “automatically reach for their guns”.
I come from an over-policed city, where I am genuinely afraid of every cop I see, because of stories just like this.
So you don’t think cops should be required to gauge the risk to the public before they gauge the risk to themselves? They chose a dangerous career, and seem unwilling to accept the risks that come along with it. A knife is less dangerous than a loaded gun, I don’t think that’s a controversial thing to say.
I’m not saying the police were perfect here, but someone attacking you with a knife isn’t something that “might” kill you, it’s an incredibly dangerous situation that presents an immediate danger to your life.
Honestly, some of the comments here are so detached from reality it’s incredible.
Cops are too quick to use violence. That’s just a sad reality. Violence is not necessarily the correct response to a violent situation. There are ton of techniques to deescalate even the most violent and dangerous situations. Granted, the NYPD isn’t trained in those techniques, so that’s a big problem, but the cops put the public in more danger than the danger the cops faced by this one violent individual. Personally, I would rather the police put public safety above all else, including themselves. I know asking anyone to put themselves at risk to protect another person is a lot to ask, but if cops aren’t willing to do that, then it comes down to us. And in that case, what are the cops for?
I’m not sure that’s the case here actually, it sounds to me like it was only a matter of time before this person went off on someone if they were so quick to pull a knife on the police.
Holy damn, this has got to be the worst take I’ve read all day/week.
I know in video games, a knife generally doesn’t do much damage but… Just… Wow.
Go outside.
Even in video games, a knife is typically pretty deadly. It’s an instant kill if you stab someone in the back in a few games.
Fair, I play more RPGs and whatnot where a knife takes 4 years to injure someone. (Though, a bad sword can take just as long because, I dunno, it’s too dull to chop through this peasant’s leather tunic? Goddamnit Ultima.)
Use physical force?
Why is it all well and good for them to risk innocent peoples lives by firing a loaded weapon in a confined space?
Firefighters risk their lives everyday, cops cant even risk a fight.
Seriously? That’s your solution, a wrestling match with a knife weilding perp?
Yes?
Thats a standard police response in the first world.
Your solution is to murder innocent civilians.
They have tasers, which didn’t work. Then move to pepper spray to blind the person and batons to subdue them.
Other countries where guns are uncommon but knife attacks are more common they have long hooked poles to capture someone. That’s impractical to carry so wouldn’t have been available in this situation but it is a tool that can be used when called out to a knife threat.
The problem here is the response doesn’t match the crime (fare avoidance) and doesn’t match the threat either. If the only solution you have for littering is to blow up a city then its time to step back and rethink the problem.
Three innocent people injured, months of investigation, and millions in lawsuit settlements. This is a failure of the officers but also a failure in training them how to respond.
If it wasn’t for insane ideas they’d have to say the cops were maybe not wildly in the wrong here so insanity it is!
Yep.
A lot of people have a totally black and white view of the world, and they will never admit that, occasionally, the group they hate isn’t totally in the wrong. It’s kinda sad actually.
Oink oink
Relevant username
I’d like to think it’s just because online skews young. I remember (with some shame) my stupid teenage anarchist days. Though I do worry that if I had, as so many do nowadays, ensconced myself only in views with which I agreed, maybe I wouldn’t have grown out of it. The more smart people you meet, disagree with and learn from, well, the bigger and more interesting your world becomes.
I love the idea of Lemmy but goddamn, a good chunk of our userbase need to grow up and I’m not sure they ever will.
They weren’t necessarily in the right either. They wounded a couple of bystanders in the process.
They were about to be wounded themselves, by the sound of it.
Oh well better they shot someone innocent.
This is as reckless as cops getting into high speed pursuits. And the whole death could had been avoided if they didnt waste everyones time cracking down on a train fare.
It also could have been avoided if the nutter hadn’t pulled a knife on the police.
Right, maybe we should be holding law enforcement to a higher standard than mentally ill people?
porque no los dos?