Since Wrestlemania there’s been nothing but stories about John Cena winning an amazing 17th title, blah blah blah… It’s a “History making moment”, yadda yadda yadda…
Like…of course he did. It’s the storyline. It’s quite literally “in the script”.
This isn’t an achievement. Why is this in my sports news next to last night’s hockey scores instead of next to an article about who was the bitchiest on the lastest episode of Real Housewives?
I get it. I loved Wrestling growing up. Back when we all WERE pretending it was real; Macho Man, Hulk Hogan, The Undertaker, etc… But I thought at some point they steered into the whole “entertainment” aspect when most of us grew the hell up and clued into the absurdity of it all.
Have you listened to any sports commentators? They all talk about <insert current game on tv> as if it’s the most important, world-changing event ever, and every little detail had some significance.
My god, baseball is a game for (as Brits would say) boffins. Fans of the game could put meth-head ravers to sleep. I’ve worked on more exciting spreadsheets for business planning.
And football has become just as bad, with the incessant pre-game/post-game commentary examining every nuance of a play - “I’m pretty sure if the inner aglet of his left shoe had moved the other way, we’d be talking about a completely different game”.
Bread and circuses, appealing to our base nature. The difference between WWE and “actual” sports on tv is only a matter of degree.
Counterpoint- all sports are silly. That’s why they are called games.
I don’t dunk on wrestling fans anymore because people are free to enjoy whatever they want. But it’s always been like this. It didn’t change - you did. Personal growth!
Not all sports are games, if you cant quickly grab some friends and head out to play it, its not a game.
All sports are games. Not all athletic competitions are sports.
What athletic competition would not be a game if all sports are games? I mean, honestly, what is the difference you see between “sport” and “athletic competition”?
You can extend or contract “game” as much as you want, but I can’t think of a definition of game that would encompass all sports but not all athletic competitions (if there really is a difference).
Track and field events are not games.
Gymnastics or any kind of event involving a choreographed routine. Diving. Really any kind of race.
I don’t consider all athletic competitions to be sports.
Why track and field events not games? They have rules, can be won or lost, and can be played casually if you think that is a requirment.
Take shot put, hammer throw, and javelin, for example. The game is who can throw the object in a certain way the furtherest. I could play a shot put game with some friends at a river bank by drawing a line in the sand and seeing who can huck the heaviest rock on the shore the furthest.
There’s a reason they call them Olympic Games.
Really any activity with some structure is a game if it is play and not “real”, even better if it can help practice a skill useful in life. There is a difference between a running race (a game) and running for your life from a bear (not a game). Between MMA and a street fight. Between war games and a shooting war.
Nah. Those aren’t games. The rules are often quite loose. You’re often not even directly competing with anyone else. Like, one person acts, and later another person acts and the results are compared. Your opponent’s actions don’t affect your results. Those field events don’t even necessarily have a set order to act on… people just wander in and out making their attempts, it’s mostly them competing with themselves.
You could run a race asynchronously as well, but time constraints prevent that.
Games have action, AND reaction. They have strategy. Throw things harder isn’t a strategy. Run faster longer isn’t a strategy.
The rules are quite loose? Why else would they have eagle eyed officials watching closely to disqualify athletes for infractions.
Games can absolutely be played asynchronously. Games can have scoring systems instead of head-to-head.
Would you say pinball is not a game?
I didn’t think I needed to get out the dictionary definition of game, but I hope this clears it up… Definitions from Oxford Languages: “noun, a form of play or sport, especially a competitive one played according to rules and decided by skill, strength, or luck.”
That’s not the definition of a game, though.
Loads of games need co-ordinated access to specific resources, from chess to the 2001 release of Halo. Doesn’t mean they’re not games.
The line between games and sports is entirely arbitrary, and changes from person to person.
Yes I know. Real sports have “motor” in front of them. lol
If your game doesn’t involve traveling above 100mph and pulling more than 2g it’s not a sport 😤
I agree to some extent, but there’s an important difference between sport and performance. WWE is categorically separate from say, BJJ. Sure, they both have guys rolling around on the floor, and they’re both kinda silly, but one is a real competition with rules and skill while the other is a predetermined show.
Yes that’s the reality. I was just rage baiting meatheads for fun. Tee-hee. Nobody’s perfect.
I don’t think all sports need to be contests, that’s just the most common association people have. Surfing and rock-climbing are still sports even if you never enter a competition.
There’s definitely a grey area. “Sports” is a spectrum from competitive team based games, to any recreational activity that requires athleticism.
In this case my point is that wrestling presents itself as a competitive sport, while that aspect of it is fake.
not disagreeing with you - I find performative “wrestle drama” absolutely, mind numbingly pointless. my preference is to participate in (and ocassionally watch) unscripted combat sport.
however… I have trained competitive martial arts for decades (muay thai, bjj, others) and most of these “wrestling” participants are pretty skilled athletes. it takes training to turn combinations of techniques designed to injure into something reasonably harmless. there is a pretty fine line separating sparring from a fight.
I know you know this, but its still useful to remember that these players are actors as well as athletes and that can obviously be pretty inviting for a lot of viewers.
Okay, so as a teenager I was a super nerd and got into swords. I took olympic style fencing lessons first, then got into the ren faire and also did some stage combat. Sadly, I have health problems and I couldn’t keep my knees in place, and had to quit. The difference between those is probably the same difference between WWE style wrestling, and BJJ. One is done with choreography, one is a competition.
They’re both sports. I don’t understand why people think the choreography somehow means it doesn’t have skills or rules? It was the same skillset, different rules. Stage combat was unpadded and used heavier weapons that left more bruises when we fucked up the choreography. They’re different, sure, but the amount of overlap is underappreciated.
there’s an important difference between sport and performance
Sure. Namely, that sports tend to be “competitive” while performances tend to be entirely about spectacle. But to claim that Simone Biles is a Real Athlete while Britt Baker isn’t, because one of them does her leaps and tumbles and flexibility stunts at Olympic sanctioned events and the other does it during AEW matches… you’re really ignoring the substance for the pastiche.
What one might argue “ruins” wrestling is all the phoney accolades various performers receive. Claiming you’re “The Best Wrestler” in a staged performance is meaningless, because its clearly a scripted fight. At the same time, very few people showing up to a nationally televised event are anything less than exceptional in athletic talent. And the exceptions are primarily there for their exceptional comedic talents.
I guess they pretend that wrestling is real to have more fun? idk.
Since when is that allowed!? /s
I’m fine with that. My bigger question was simply why am I seeing it in sports news instead of entertainment news all of a sudden? It’s not a sport. it’s a variety show sponsored by the makers of steroids.
Since when is it forbidden? Who is gatekeeping the sports page?
And I think you see it in sports news because it reaches their demographic better—some WWE fans are too insecure in their masculinity to visit the arts and culture section, and I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that football and wrestling have a huge crossover demographic.
We have been living in a post truth world lately, and pretending that WWE is a sport is just another facet of it. Strap in, the nonsense is just getting started.
I don’t watch wrestling, and I haven’t heard anything about it beyond this post. We must hang out in different circles.
The only professional wrestling I pay attention to is the current US administration.
{sneaks up behind Trump with a folding chair}
Obligatory:
Yeah, that’s kinda silly. I can see an argument that WWE wrestlers are athletes, no problems there. But they don’t actually perform in any sort of athletic competition, which makes thinking of it as a “sport” a little weird. If WWE is a sport, then so is ballet.
Roberto Bolle wins unprecedented 17th championship against King Mouse in the Nutcracker cage match!
In a way, it is impressive. They make those decisions based on certain factors and his ability to draw crowds, attention, money has been sustained for a long time.
I don’t think people are deluding themselves.
Living in the western world - I hear nothing about Wrestling…
Same. US defaultism strikes again. I don’t think I have ever heard anyone talk about wrestling in my life
Wrestling has a significant presence in Central America, Japan, and Europe. Presumably other regions as well but I really don’t follow the sport so my experience is all second-hand.
Real wrestling yes.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLWfeskasuOjBfZ5WxG66bvBeI8XQtNHA5
Sports theater as well.
God that’s cringe.
Where in Europe?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_wrestling_in_the_United_Kingdom
Quick little history of the last century in the UK.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_professional_wrestling_promotions_in_Europe
Active circuits are pretty much everywhere.
That’s not significant at all. The viership is practically non existent. I’ve lived in 3 inches different countries in Europe plus the US. Not once have I’ve seen wrestling make the news anywhere in Europe. It’s extremely fringe.
Most sports never make the news. Even in the US it’s pretty fringe except for the wrestlers who transition to Hollywood, like John Cena or Dave Bautista. Though it had a heyday from the Hulk Hogan era through Stone Cold and The Rock when people were much more aware, generally. I don’t know anyone who watches but I know a bunch of people who used to watch.
Nah, at least this once it’s definitely not a US defaultism thing.
As an American, this is the first time I’ve thought about pro wrestling in a very very long time.
it’s not a point of US defaultism, it’s that nobody in our respective social circles can give a shit about wrestling lol
I live in the US and also never hear about wrestling.
Yeah, I think this says more about OP’s information bubble.
The audience participating in the performance by pretending that it’s real is central to the meaning of kayfabe. That never changed, even if it only recently expanded to some media that’s in your news feed.
It’s a soap opera for men. Sure the storyline is made up, but people still like being entertained.
Note, I am assuming the match was good. I haven’t watch wrestling in a while, but some of those old matches are still fun to watch.
I’ve heard the soap opera comparison before. But I think “circus” is technically more accurate. You’ve got these very obvious professional athletes performing a well-rehearsed routine that is physically demanding and dramatically delivered.
Like, would you call a tightrope walker or a trapeze artist “fake”? If a dozen clowns pile out of a car and start performing back flips and somersaults and climbing into human pyramids and spraying one another with seltzer bottles, would you dismiss it as an obviously scripted display?
Would you go to a Harlem Globetrotters game and complain when they pull out a springboard and start doing stunt slam dunks?
It’s a show! It doesn’t need to be competitive in order to be fun.
Circus comparison is good but I prefer drag race. It’s a bunch of (generally) men in costumes and make up performing very well-practiced routines for the sole purpose of entertainment, with one rigged winner at the end.
Maybe wrestling fans wouldn’t like that comparison as much.
I’ve never seen ‘drag race’ used in this context, and I was wondering how you were about to compare drag racing (like with cars) with wrestling.
Lol yeah sorry I should’ve said drag queen competitions. What you described happens to me all the time in reverse when people talk about car drag racing. I watch too much RuPaul.
The outcome of the match is predetermined while the participants pretend that it isn’t. That is why there are constant arguments about whether or not it’s “fake”.
The outcome of the match is predetermined while the participants pretend that it isn’t.
The adventure is in the journey, not the destination. I don’t care whether you win or you lose when I came to see two roided out giants do backflip kicks into one another’s torsos while their friends spray silly string to distract the combatants from the sidelines.
That is why there are constant arguments about whether or not it’s “fake”.
There is absolutely no question that the outcome of the matches is predetermined, in the same way that there is absolutely no doubt that the Rat King is going to get killed by the Nutcracker at the ballet. But both wrestling and ballet are athletic endeavors.
I agree that most of them are athletic, but they simply aren’t competing in an athletic competition.
I think your comparison to the Globetrotters is on point. In the ballet and other examples, the difference to me is that they’re not pretending to be in a ballet competition while dancing the ballet.
There’s no doubt that what most wrestlers do requires skill, talent, and athleticism but it’s “fake” in that what you’re watching isn’t an authentic athletic competition despite the people involved pretending that it is.
In the ballet and other examples, the difference to me is that they’re not pretending to be in a ballet competition while dancing the ballet.
In the Nutcracker, at least, they’re pretending to fence, in a choreographed dance. A first-time naive viewer who came out of the show offended when they discover skill at fencing has nothing to do with whether the dancers playing the Nutcracker or the Rat King wins would sound silly.
I do think that the kayfabe is what sets wrestling apart from more traditional performance art. The carnival-barker lying-to-your-face aspect of the performance is what makes it feel extra circus-y. But when you accept that the kayfabe is just part of the performance, you stop feeling offended by it and start recognizing degrees of commitment to the bit as part of the artform.
This still doesn’t explain why Cena’s victory is being reported to much hype in the sports sections.
Because they need to sell papers?
In the Nutcracker, at least, they’re pretending to fence, in a choreographed dance.
And no one writes stories about who won the fencing match.
Wrestling takes things to a ridiculous level compared to all other performances.
Yeah from a physical aspect yes you are correct but wrestling has the storylines that the circus doesn’t. The Jerry springer like drama and feuds that people really get invested in with the same level of chair throwing.
wrestling has the storylines that the circus doesn’t
Every Cirque-du-Soleil I’ve been to has had a storyline.
The Jerry Springer like drama and feuds that people really get invested in with the same level of chair throwing.
There’s a ton of hype that builds up around the actual events, in no small part because the events themselves are physically exhausting and the producers need to fill hours of time with minutes of match.
But we see the exact same kind of shit during the Olympics. Two talking heads reading out an athlete’s life story for half an hour, right before you get to see a three minute floor routine or a sixteen second bobsled run.
Would you go to a Harlem Globetrotters game and complain when they pull out a springboard and start doing stunt slam dunks?
I did, so Ethan “Bubblegum” Tate made fun of me, I became verbally abusive, and then they asked me to leave.
Meh, it was okay I suppose.
Cena doesn’t play a heel very well, and it’s kind of shitty that they used crotch shots in both of the WM main events.
I think you can leave off “for men”
Facts.
I know professional wrestling is as real as the MCU or the latest episode of Severance. I am still entertained by all three.
Wrestling winds up in the “sports” section because news outlets have to classify it somehow. That’s not the fault of wrestling fans.
There’s really no need in life to yuck other people’s yum. If it’s not for you, that’s cool.
Sports is kind of a stretch. Professional wrestling should be classified as entertainment with the soap operas and marvel slop.
Totally agree but for the opposite reason.
Wrasslin’ is very story driven. Not everyone has time to watch, and the sports news outlets is all spoilers.
It’s like a Harry Potter fan opening their news feed to “Snape kills Dumbledore after epic battle!” plastered all over the news on the day after the book came out. (my apologies to any Harry Potter fans who haven’t read all the books or seen all the movies by now, in 2025).
I wouldn’t call myself a wrestling fan but I see the entertainment/art in professional wrestling. Like anything else entertainment wise it’s an escape for the viewers. Sure the outcome of matches are pre determined but it’s the entire spectacle that you get lost in and forget about the forged display. I never watched WWE growing up but I always heard about John Cena being a charismatic well liked person in and out of the ring. I’m sure the headlines fit more into sports feeds rather than the arts/theater section.
What outlets do you follow?
Because this is the first I’m hearing about it.
WWE is a special beast. They embraced The Internet a lot earlier than most media and their social media and astro turfing game is on point. It is why you’ll hear that every single wrestler on the planet’s life goal is to be in the WWE Hall of Fame ™ and why Roman “The Rock’s Cousin Who Was Such A Charisma Void That All His Lines In Hobbes And Shaw were cut” Reigns and whoever the hell is the greatest story ever told on television ™ and so forth.
Spend a bit of time discussing wrestling and you rapidly realize you are talking to a “bot” in that different statements trigger the exact same response from different people.
So it is less that The Fans think that cena taking time out of his busy schedule of caping for a rapist sex trafficker was truly amazing and more that people on twitter and PR folk on The Subreddit told them to think that and they are repeating it.
As for the other aspect:
Why is this in my sports news next to last night’s hockey scores instead of next to an article about who was the bitchiest on the lastest episode of Real Housewives?
Because wrestling is “event television” in a way that only sports really is anymore. Andor is one of the greatest shows of all time but, unless you are doing a Reaction podcast, it doesn’t matter if you watch that episode from Season 2 tonight or tomorrow or a week from now. Wrestling and sports? People DO still want to watch that “live” because they are afraid someone will spoil the score of the Bulls game (in large part because we grew up with sitcoms where that was the joke). So, in that regard, it makes more sense to cover it with sports rather than to cut into a movie review with how taylor swift’s boyfriend caught a ball real good.
Which… gets to the last point that is not WWE specific. A lot of people don’t have the time or money to watch it live. This mostly goes back to when PPVs were 50-90 bucks and when all weekly shows were on TV that a lot of “cord cutters” didn’t have. But it also just speaks to the general lack of an attention span. A LOT of the Internet Wrestling Community (IWC)… don’t actually watch wrestling. They follow live threads or watch clips and then they wait for Dave “It’s cool, he just didn’t like her tits” Meltzer to give them a star rating.
It has become a lot more prevalent in the AEW era where we have “something else” on weekly TV (no. TNA didn’t count. I loved TNA but that shit was the #4 promotion even when there were only two on TV in the US) and the “AEW style” is still heavily informed by The Indies and New Japan where people try to tell a self contained story in every match rather than relying on six months of promos on TV. You will RAPIDLY notice that the IWC will barely mention character work that is not part of a clip released by the company or one that was so good that wrestling twitter clipped it themselves. A live thread might lose their shit over how much rotation a tall lady got on a powerbomb spot and then immediately “forget it” because wrestling twitter didn’t care and the company didn’t bother to release a clip of it.