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Imagine griping about hamfisted social commentary in Star Trek. It’s never been subtle.
My biggest gripe about nutrek is too much section 31. It sends the message that the utopian post-scarcity society is only possible because of unaccountable fascists slinking around in black pleather behind the scenes.
I completely agree with this. Old Trek at least pretended to have a debate about Right vs Wrong, and chose Right.
New Trek just choosed Right from the get-go and smiles condescendingly at Wrong for being Wrong.
Like, sure, I agree with everything it’s saying. I just hate the implicit arrogance with which it says it.
Also, unrelated: Old Trek was portable! You could take the same script and turn it into theater stage production easily, losing none of the plot and gravitas. You could take it 50 years back in time and it’d still be trackable by an audience.
New Trek has way too many (often jaw-dropping) visual effects to be portable. You might be able to re-enact parts of it in a Floyd lazer show with everyone wired up for the occasional flight sequence.
I could watch TOS, TNG caused me anxiety for whatever reason, watched some DS9.
TOS - nice and cozy, it’s old minded, but well meant mostly. I’m a Star Wars person. Also liked Babylon V and Stargate SG-1.
TNG - seen very little of it, get bored because of not tracking what even happens there and what’s the purpose of those scenes, but I have understood that there’s maybe something smart there somewhere.
DS9 - I didn’t like it, really seemed to involve a lot of virtue signaling and identity politics. I don’t like the former because it’s all signals and no action, I don’t like the latter because you are disadvantaged if you don’t fit well to a stereotype of some protected group in some dimension, and nobody really does, except for brainless activists. Spherical libertarian ethics in vacuum or even spherical Marxist ethics in vacuum would fit me better, but as we all know, these are mostly represented IRL by idiots.
So - DS9 is bad. It’s a paper model alternative to Babylon V with vaguely Trek-ish ideas, except Babylon V is much deeper (but also inconsistent and generally nuts, which is fine, the universe is too). It’s too morally sterile as compared to TOS and TNG.
Haven’t seen any of other “old” Trek.
Haven’t seen any of the “new” Star Trek, if it’s similar to the “new” Star Wars, then nothing of value was lost.
The point is … I agree complaining about “woke” in Trek is strange, but it’s strange for any sci-fi to be honest. These people probably think Heinlein wasn’t “woke”, but I’m almost certain he would be hated by them if he lived in our time. He did references to jungle law, human predatory nature and the idea that some human society developments are degenerate, but all these things are more specific than just mentioning them, for a real discussion about humanity.
Agree completely about Heinlein. The opinions people have about what he would have agreed or disagreed with are baffling to me. It’s like the only things they read are Moon is a Harsh Mistress, Starship Troopers, and Beyond This Horizon and they believe he was advocating a position instead of trying to get you to think and ask questions.
I’m so tired of the idea that “an armed society is a polite society” is any kind of good or that it is a society that should be longed for. Same for mandatory service.
It’s also that things shown in his books are orthogonal to modern popular categories.
IIRC Door into Summer has something resembling socialism, not shown as good or bad, actually shown as “everything both different and still the same on the ape planet”, especially the “recent news” moment after unfreezing when I last re-read it, it’s amazing how that didn’t get old since the book was written, you can feel that it touches exactly the same strings it was intended to touch then, full feeling of presence.
IIRC Starship Troopers has a few moments clearly showing flaws in the system, Rico clearly feeling that was wrong, and the general mood being “we know it’s not ideal, we just needed something and the previous one broke” with a bit of pretense and moralism and importance, like in everything such IRL.
IIRC Orphans of the Sky can illustrate any political position conceivable, that values a human.
IIRC Citizen of the Galaxy is really hard to perceive as something he’s usually accused of supporting.
And so on.
I don’t get it, it’s like we watched two different Star Trek franchises. And while producing some real bullcrap, new Star Wars has some of the best Star Wars ever produced with Rogue One and Andor (also, Rebels is surprisingly good).
Also I do think virtue signalling and identity political do have some value to some capacity.
But calling DS9 ‘too morally sterile’ is just baffling me. Have you even watched episodes like ‘For the uniform’?
Also I do think virtue signalling and identity political do have some value to some capacity.
Well, there are some cases you can assume a thing and some cases you can’t. Sometimes you can trust the other side to send the message of the right size and form in one piece over TCP, sometimes you can’t. Say, if you are a Gopher server, you can. Sometimes you can wait longer, sometimes you can’t. Sometimes you can’t condition stopping some process by waiting for a response, sometimes you can’t.
It’s the same in life. You may see the good parts of something and not see the bad parts. Or the other way around. Life also doesn’t have fairness, you can easily encounter a top level boss after just creating a character, in game terms. And no justice, no error processing, nothing of the sort.
So - answering your question, I don’t remember a single DS9 episode right now, just my impression of their structure and level of complexity.
Rogue One and Andor are fine, but I wouldn’t call them some of the best Star Wars made, more like the only Star Wars made since Disney acquisition. They are set in the same universe, more or less, that I can accept. And they touch upon the same things good parts of the old universe did. And they make references to things I didn’t expect to be referenced under Disney. I can agree they are good. Probably just things shown I imagined differently, but then my imagination was trying to make them feel safe, similar to the second paragraph here, while Andor shows it all as a looming failure, which for may intents and purposes that phase of the rebellion indeed was.
I have no idea what you are talking about in your first two paragraphs.
So - answering your question, I don’t remember a single DS9 episode right now, just my impression of their structure and level of complexity.
Maybe you can have another go. Especially the Dominion War episodes are really good, but also there are other really good episodes.
Rogue One and Andor are fine, but I wouldn’t call them some of the best Star Wars made
They are though. They are definitely better than the prequels and arguably at least as good as the OT, at least from a story telling and movie making perspective.
Andor doesn’t show failure though, it shows how fascist systems work and how fascism affects the ‘little people’.
I have no idea what you are talking about in your first two paragraphs.
This sentence looks as if implying it were my fault. And of course it is, but that’d be any misunderstanding, with some other common traits of misunderstandings, like that it’s symmetrically the other side’s fault too.
Meant that you never know the upsides and the downsides of something for real. Just in some limited model, with your own imperfect projection of the universe.
Maybe you can have another go.
Feel more like another attempt at TNG, but yes, maybe.
They are though. They are definitely better than the prequels and arguably at least as good as the OT, at least from a story telling and movie making perspective.
You are right, of course, in at least one of the myriad of possible interpretations.
In mine half the good things about them are a bit masqueraded references to how the old SW EU felt, and not original decisions. And in the rest there are flaws as bad as those of prequels. No way they are better than the OT. They may be better than prequels, if we are not taking a huge part of prequels’ atmosphere and removing it from flaws, calling it author’s style (I do ; I don’t, however, ignore parts that seem left as they were because Lucas lost the interest in deepening them or finishing them, I actually suspect he’s a bit on the spectrum too).
I also don’t consider prequels obviously bad, which seems to be such a common opinion that its bearers often can’t elaborate on it, other than vague terms like “bad dialogue” and “bad pacing” and “doesn’t make sense”. I would, of course, welcome good supporting points on that.
Andor doesn’t show failure though, it shows how fascist systems work and how fascism affects the ‘little people’.
That’s what a huge part of Star Wars is about, except “fascism” is a word a bit tasteless for the more generic thing.
By “looming failure” I mean Luthen&co’s approach to planning, risk and lack of backups, and that they also act like agents of something far more powerful than the Rebellion in that stage. In the EU at that point they’d be all surveilled by ISB 3 steps into the chain from anybody who touched any of the suspicious senators. The private moments and conversations would be intentionally arranged and rare. Instead they act like Soviet agents in USA or vice versa, as if knowing that at worst they’ll be exchanged for someone. Almost like ambassadors.
OK, I guess we might still see that Luthen was just an upper society cynical, but naive type, and in the end learn that the Emperor watched them all every moment and laughed.
Meant that you never know the upsides and the downsides of something for real. Just in some limited model, with your own imperfect projection of the universe.
That’s just some blank, insignificant statement, either worthless for any discussion or an attempt invalidate discussions.
That, however, seems to be your tactic anyway. You seem wanting to make everything about how everything is smarter of perspective and interpretation, and that is not the kind of discussion I find fruitful, so I stop discussing with you now. Have a nice day.
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Honestly just miss everyone working together. I only did about 1.5 seasons each of Picard and Discovery, but I just couldn’t take all the “the enemy is each other”. If I wanted that I’d watch the expanse? Ftr I will watch them in entirety and fully judge at that point, rn I haven’t so can’t say they offer nothing. SNW seems to get it though which I appreciate and hope continues. There are so few optimistic sci-fi shows I really want trek to stick to that niche.
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choose it’s own sex and appearance
Data did not use contractions (as pointed out by his evil twin), so that would be “choose it is own sex and appearance”
You could’ve just pointed out that it was supposed to be “its” instead, which is also not a contraction lol
I thought it would be funny this way. Guess not
That’s the pain of text only communication, I guess
I appreciate it now that I know though!
I mean, what’s to understand? Kids are dumb and can’t understand media, adults are dumb and can’t understand media they didn’t watch as kids.
Seems pretty straightforward to me.
I hate posts about some vocal asshat complaining about something being woke. Anybody who uses the word woke derogatory is an asshole who doesn’t deserve a moment of my attention.
Yeah, anyone who complains that Trek is suddenly all woke and political now never watched any classic Star Trek or hasn’t been paying attention back then.
I’ve watched all of Star Trek on the big screens and the small ones at least once - including Section 31 - and it’s as political as it has ever been. And there has always been brilliance and absolute dogshit. Those who say NuTrek is all shite don’t know what they’re talking about.
they called STARGATE WOKE too, of all the scifi shows, they try to call a show that did use as much accuracy as possible to the USAF in the early years. additionally this was also discussed on one of cringey ml, hexbear posts for some reason, they are framing it as WOKE. they think its increasing propaganda because its based on USAF/CANADA/russian(to an extent).
I agree “old” Trek was woke too. It just blended in better imo. (Especially with Disco, it felt like there was a metaphorical spotlight on the “woke”.)
old trek had more subtlty, nutrek was too forced and out in the open to the point, it was distracting from the series plots. and std and picard were not very good shows. SNW need better actors/acting though, although they have much better arcs than the last 2.
Nice username btw.
Thanks.
It annoys me that new trek got wrapped up in this discourse because my dislike of it is because of the image above
Old trek was super “woke” and optimistic, I see new trek as too focused on war and it paints the future as though they never achieved luxury space communism free of scarcity
I think your comment could reasonably apply to early Discovery and Picard, but not so much to the rest of nuTrek. It could equally apply to DS9 and Enterprise - but not so much to the rest oldTrek (Voyager might straddle the line).
I think it’s most accurate to say that Star Trek as a whole has generally shown alternating waves of reifying and challenging the utopian future concept. Overall that gives a message that a better society can be achieved, but the work of living up to that vision can never end. It works for me.
nutrek was bad from start to finish, lowerdecks and prodigy was much better shows than the kurtzman 3 he did.
nuTrek has been pretty great for me, overall. Prodigy never managed to win me over, though. I’m well out of its target audience, so that’s no surprise.
It’s easier on the writers when they take away all the easy. There’s an episode of DS9 where the Defiant’s computer is broken and they have to do everything manually. The scene of them undocking and leaving ds9 was pretty dramatic. It let them show off the crew’s hyper competency without the use of the future tech.
I really hated when Discovery jumped to a post apocalypse future, but those ended up being the best seasons of the show.
they jumped 900years in the future to get away from thier horrible 2 seasons. i once so a trailer for s4, yup as i predicted they went all in margianalized the other people in the show that made trek great.
If only Rick Berman would’ve let us have luxury gay space communism this wouldn’t have happened
Picard falls over because what should be left as a character study has clumsy attempts to jam ‘action trek’ up it, often derailing it. DISC tells us the universe is dark and full of terrors. Both tell us we fucked up and that we should fear.
PIC and DISC remain trapped in the time and political and emotional states of their making. Jihadists and racism, the same political and bigoted circles over and over. SNW and LD - and yes The Orville - like classic trek show us a version of this - but then reach past to show we could have something better. To normalise that something better.
And it’s in the normalisation where Trek’s REAL power has always lain. You can tell a thousand aesops, clumsy or skilled on the fool who oppressed his equal, but they don’t hold a single candle to the simple fact Uhura is a bridge officer. To McCoy yielding without second thought to M’Benga as a more skilled MO. To former enemies in the crew, women in command, loving single black fathers, genderqueer species, Autistic ciphers, queer couples, trans children. All of them normalised. All of them not begging, demanding, fighting for respect - but simply receiving it. The disrespectful are the denormalised, and they must be fought. A better life is not a dream to strive for held out of reach, it’s simply the base state of existence.
Picard and disc forgot that, and its a real fuckin’ shame.
I think that, starting with the Marquis, Trek was trying to address issues that might arise even with luxury space communism.
“It’s easy to be a saint in paradise.”
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Old trek was super “woke” and optimistic, I see new trek as too focused on war and it paints the future as though they never achieved luxury space communism free of scarcity
At least on that front, it seemed to be rather conditional. If you were not an organic humanoid, you had a much more difficult time.
Just look at Measure of a Man, and what Starfleet later tried to pull with Lal, or what happened on the Sutherland. Or the ExoComps. Or what happened to the deprecated EMH Mk. I units, and the Voyager’s EMH and his holonovel. Or the UGLY BAGS OF MOSTLY WATER crystal aliens. Or the Horta. Or Hugh.
I cannot imagine that the Federation would have ordered the developing a form of memetic virus that would telepathically spread amongst the Klingon population and wipe them all out when they were at war with the Empire.
But they did order it against the Borg, intending to use Hugh as a vector.
Yes, and it was shown as a huge internal conflict in TNG, and honestly even TOS had a bunch of inconsistent morality that didn’t quite fit a utopian society, you have a lot of state secrets, a lot of espionage, paranoia, and a cold war that includes violating the prime directive on a regular basis as long as they think the Klingons will also violate around the same degree, and that’s really not a very good idea, I really doubt the Vulcans would arm a bronze age civilization on a developing planet with muskets if they thought the Klingons might also do That.
I really doubt the Vulcans would arm a bronze age civilization on a developing planet with muskets if they thought the Klingons might also do That.
If anything, I think that it might be more likely for the Vulcans to do such a thing. Don’t forget that they did interfere with human development a bunch, because they could not readily put them into their existing categories, out of concern for what might happen otherwise.
It does not seem unreasonable that under the same circumstances, they might find it logical to arm a bronze-age civilisation against an alien enemy.
i remember its the reason why the borg even exist, someone mention gene roddenberrry was fighting people that the parasites in that one episode was susceptible to evil and corruption if they are bieng controlled. so they created a borg as a compromise. the episode where the parasites was controlling star trek command and it sent a signal to the delta quadrant, sound familiar just the like borg.
The idea of the borg feel more like “hey, the federation sounds suspiciously like communism that works, can’t we introduce “evil communism” to show how evil it is”?
i think the parasites were suppose to be the og borg, but gene or someone dint like that idea, that the starfleet can ben controlled by an alien.
Sounds probable judging from the stories of the writers fighting Roddenberry’s story mandates. And as soon as he was dead, they did the infiltrating founders anyway on DS9.
that episode was wierd, since everyone thought there was a followup. because they send the big bad signal to the delta quadrant which indicates they were from there about to invade, the queen that was controlling the host had the "map of sectors in the background, which i was taken to say he was sending it there). later replaced by the borg which did the same thing.
In fairness I think the memetic virus was meant to stimulate individualism and perhaps general revolt in the Borg, and Picard and co didn’t think it would result in the collective simply purging entire cubes remotely just to keep the contagion contained. The memetic virus was meant to be the nonlethal option. It turned out to be lethal only because Picard and co underestimated just how ruthlessly it would be crushed. Of course, then again, perhaps I’m misremembering.
In fairness I think the memetic virus was meant to stimulate individualism and perhaps general revolt in the Borg, and Picard and co didn’t think it would result in the collective simply purging entire cubes remotely just to keep the contagion contained
No, the virus was meant to exploit a fault in their visual programming to kill the Borg drones and wipe them out. The individuality came as an accidental side effect, when Hugh developed a taste of individuality after losing his connection to the Collective, and roamed around the Enterprise.
When they came to collect, the collective re-assimilated Hugh and also got the individuality he gained, which then led them to explode cubes.
The problem is that when people say “New Trek”, they actually mean Discovery.
Discovery is a poorly written show made by people who do not grok Trek, and think that high ranking naval officers behaving like teenagers makes for good TV. SNW is alsio Nu Trek and manages to be faithful to the original vision while introducing new concepts.
Calling people critical of poory written shows bigots is very discrespectful. You may like it, but that doesn’t mean that everybody else has to like it as well.
They made because they’re not awake.
That’s why we love Daddy Data 💕 🤖
That argument is indeed stupid, but Kurtzman Trek is inferior in every other way.
- the plots are often incoherent
- the tone strays too far from what made classic Star Trek compelling
- the overuse of action and spectacle comes at the expense of thoughtful Sci fi
- Character development feels shallow to nonexistent
- and so much more
Everything is just bad.
That’s my impression from DIS, but isn’t SNW supposed to be decent?
Nope.
I tried a few episodes because someone said they’d done a great space battle. The battle was 8/10, but every thing else was just dumb.
I found SNW to be a fresh breath of air after the garbage that Disco was. Sure, some filler episodes were weird, but at least I got a chuckle out of the Klingons rapping.
Here are two shows worth watching.
“Utopia” a group of comic book fans discover that their favorite read is a secret message from an escapee from a sinister organization.
“The Prisoner” The grandfather of all paranoid fantasy shows. An unnamed civil servant resigns and is kidnapped. He’s taken to The Village, where he’s told he is Number 6…
Thank you for the recommendations!
In case anyone wants to watch those, too, they’re “Utopia (2013)” and “The Prisoner (1967)”. There are quite a few series and movies with those names.
silly me
also make sure to watch the UK version of Utopia, not the very very bad US remake
The problem with the K (for Klingon, of course) Pop scene is that the song didn’t last long enough.
Shit, you’re right! I had more of a Hiphop vibe in my memory. I love how the Klingon is so annoyed that he can’t prevent the singing. Peak comedy.
SNW is decent. S2 E2 is an especially strong episode.
snw was too robotic, seems like the actors were being forced to say those lines every scene. they had good premise but the execution was poor, as the other 2 series. picard was equally cringey as std, again they had so MUCH history they can use for the show, but it ended falling flat, and they were using source material from fan novels. (the friendly borg, the rogue changelings,etx) all came from various novels.
prodigy and lower decks were much better shows than the 3 though. too bad t hey got cancelled too fast.
I still maintain that as great as DS9 was, it started Trek on a self-destructive path of constantly trying to go even darker and edgier. Gene had utopian rules for a reason, and although some of them were probably too restrictive, the whole point of Star Trek, the unique selling point it possesses that no other franchise has, is that it offers us a vision of the future that isn’t a dystopian hellscape. A positive look at what the future could be for us if we follow our nobler instincts. DS9 eroded that by suggesting that it was all bullshit, that the Federation was just as unenlightened as we are today, and although it made for a great show in the short term, in the long term it hurt the franchise because darker and edgier yields ever diminishing returns.
If he’s the one behind “Strange New Worlds” I have to agree. Watched about three episodes and gave up.
Team lands on a strange object with the power to move a planet. “Hey, let me grab this thing!”
SNW was just too much like the other 2. had a big bad romulans at the end of season 1, but they dint do anything with them the next season, just completely disappeared.
What I’d like to see is a complete reboot. No humanoid aliens with five fingers; only nightmare creatures. Erase all prior canon. Start with an Earth based starship with a crew of five hundred humans. And get some real scientists to come up with plots.
enterprise wouldve gone on longer if les moonves dint trash the show. that wouldve been a good start.
To be fair, the Romulans only showed up because this was an alternate timeline version of a TOS episode.
dint kurtzman do the transformer series? i dont know why he was chose for this. almost end of every season, was universing ending event, the exact same plot as the previous season, and then they drop it the next seasons. remember the horrible klingon look, and thier cloaking, people had so much issues they partially dropped it on the 2nd season, and "Escaped to the 31st " century.
We should only watch the real old trek.
I mean, it was one of the first shows ever to:
- have a woman in a command position,
- depict a black person in a non-servile role,
- show Russians and Americans working as a team during the Cold War, and
- have an Asian character portrayed by an actual Asian actor,
but it wasn’t woke!
MLK Jr himself called Nichelle Nichols to encourage her to play Uhura. First interracial kiss on scripted television. She worked with NASA after Trek to encourage and recruit black and female astronauts.
Which sounds wholesome (and I don’t say it’s not at all) until you realize Nichols wanted to do something else, I think it was musicals, and King convinced her by saying “we need you to have representation. When you’re gone, anyone can take that position, even an alien” and so she stayed instead of self realization.
Certainly, worse things happened to her in her life.
First interracial kiss on scripted television.
That’s a common myth. There were several others before, some of which also had Shatner as one half of the kissing pair, believe it or not. Trek’s was definitely more high-profile, though, and with several of the others it may have been hard to notice with that particular combination with the quality of televisions at the time; European man with Asian woman probably wasn’t noticeable on a tiny '50s black and white TV.
All those were token characters regularly repeating stereotypes about said groups, but OK.
Showing people from different sides of the curtain working together in future was kinda normal for science fiction.
The whole PR representation of the Cold War was like “friendly competition” or “hostile agreement” or a schism of the same religion. A good faith disagreement. USSR in some sense pretended to be like USA, but a better one, to bring the next stage of humanity’s development. You know all those failed\cancelled continuations, Half-Life 3, KotOR 3, Perl 6, FreeBSD 5 (ok, that transpired and didn’t kill FreeBSD completely, but), Gnome 3, KDE 4, Star Wars after 2005 and till being bought by Disney. Or ambitious alternative projects that went nowhere.
At the same time there were various levels of propaganda on either side, at the bottom for one it was the free world about to nuke dem damn commies, for the other it was the civilized peaceful humanity about to squash decadent anglosaxon zionists. But note how both variants imply there is good in the other side, just suppressed because they are possessed by evil.
So - not so strange. People perceive that friendliness as something new and the current hostility as something old, sometimes that’s not true. In some sense our time is more chauvinist than 60s and 70s, not less.
It’s all Old Trek that came before the J.J. Abrams movie reboot.
but it wasn’t woke!
Define woke then, please.
Define woke then, please.
do you kids today really need /s behind every s?
You have no idea how many wild claims my autistic ass has seen that were absolutely serious.
were they, or did you just assume so?
Do you really want to say they weren’t? Do you really want to deny my experiences?
Edit: don’t bother answering, I’m blocking you. I don’t like people referring to middle aged people as ‘kids’ and I don’t like people doubting others’ experiences without any knowledge about said experiences.
Do you really want to deny my experiences?
i do. you just did not recognize pretty clear sarcasm, it is documented in writing above. it is unlikely that it was only time in your life it happened. so yeah, some of these experiences in your past were also cases where you did misread the situation.
your badly acted offense does not change anything about that.
It is because sarcasm needs tone. Which you do not have in text. As there is a person for every possible opinion out there and they have become more vocal in the internet i personally am annoyed by the motion that we are supposed to spot sarcasm. We all should just put that ugly s behind it, it is not that hard.
I guess i should have replied to the comment before you btw.
It is because sarcasm needs tone.
not necessarily. you need context and it comes from other places than just tone of voice.
if someone just drops “of course star trek is woke” in the middle of written text in random place, it can be harder to decipher the intent than it would be in voice. but the original commenter did quite a good job to guide reader to understand their position on the topic. combined with what community we are in it is a no-brainer.
yeah, sometimes there are stupid people on the internet, but sometimes a joke is just a joke. in the old days when internet sounded like a tortured robot, people used to say “be conservative in what you send out and liberal in what you receive”. times have indeed changed, but the rule still can come handy sometimes.
It is because sarcasm needs tone. Which you do not have in text.
“Frodo didn’t offer her any tea”
“And the more they drank, the more sober they were becoming”
Just off the top of my head.
So you disagree that in many online conversations sarcasm is confused for serious statements and vise versa?
No, that’s not what I said. Just that to make clearly distinguishable and good sarcasm you don’t need “/s”. Most people can’t, of course.
but it wasn’t woke!
If it wasn’t for Kirk banging his way around the galaxy, it would have been.
Nothing compared to Riker.
Have a Japanese character about 20 years after ww2.
Have a Russian character during the Cold War.
They are just different, modern is so cynical and edgy and, yes, ‘woke’ in the way that makes it feel foreign.
I am baffled by this language you speak. Are you trying to break an AI overlord by speaking in paradoxes or…?
Lads, is being foreign woke?
Alright, I’ll try to explain it better. For me, trek was about people overcoming their differences and trying to work things out despite them, and being kind to each other. Newer shows lack this ideas, in my opinion.
Tap for spoiler
I understand that explaining my position is probably futile, and only bring more moking.
For me, trek was about people overcoming their differences and trying to work things out despite them, and being kind to each other. Newer shows lack this ideas, in my opinion.
In Discovery, a Vulcan woman gets married to a seven-foot tall walking squid man. In seasons 4-5, Book nearly destroys the galaxy and they forgive him because they understand he was traumatised. These strike me as pretty clear examples (just two, I could add more!) of people ‘overcoming their differences and trying to work things out despite them, and being kind to each other’.
This is entirely separate from the question of whether those plots lines and character arcs were well-written - they largely weren’t, IMO. But they did happen!
most older fans dont like STD, they considered as a alternate timeline.
This is irrelevant to the discussion, which was not ‘Is it an alternate timeline/who likes it?’ but ‘does it possess certain qualities?’.
I don’t agree with your point.
First, there’s a lot of old trek episodes basically just saying „X is wrong, y’all stop doing this, please!“
Second, there still is a lot of times new trek shows that working together is beneficial for everyone. There’s even a whole show exactly about that called Prodigy, and it’s really great.True, in old trek they too had “we know better” thing, but the feeling was different (for me), as in they were hopeful in tone and intentionally tried to be non-violent even in situations where it would be a lot easier to just force their way. I will look at Prodigy again, thank you for recommendation.
I don’t find Strange New World for example particularly violent, even compared to old trek. It is sometimes grittier when exploring how war traumatizes people caught up in it, sure but I don’t think that’s what you mean.
However, that is not what’s being criticized usually. Most complaints about new trek being “woke” is about stuff like the inclusion of a gay couple or nonbinary characters.
What does “woke” mean? What makes modern Trek woke but old Trek not?
