- cross-posted to:
- palestine@sopuli.xyz
- cross-posted to:
- palestine@sopuli.xyz
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What a shitty article. It’s so heavily biased in favor of genocide.
Happy cake day!
They didn’t even do the most basic of work to attempt to put forward a front of journalistic integrity. They didn’t give Vylan a chance to respond to the article.
There was a really interesting podcast on the AP style and its entrenched biases - but only available to subscribers:
https://www.canadaland.com/podcast/bonus-who-writes-the-rules-of-news/
An article on the same topic:
https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/how-the-ap-stylebook-warps-reality-to-serve-power
What did you want them to say? It’s not an opinion piece.
They should be more neutral in a non-opinion piece. They quote a lot more people saying pro-genocide things than they quote people saying anti-genocide things. They quoted pro-genocide politicians and pro-genocide BBC staff. They did not give the musicians any opportunity to respond to the article.
Israel’s war against Hamas in Gaza has inflamed tensions around the world, triggering pro-Palestinian protests in many capitals and on college campuses. Israel and some supporters have described the protests as antisemitic, while critics say Israel uses such descriptions to silence opponents
Let’s consider the two positions mentioned in this paragraph:
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Israel should stop committing genocide
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Israel should continue committing genocide, and position 1 is antisemitic
The first position is described as “pro-Palestinian”, as if these protesters support the Palestinian military (Hamas) and want them to win. This is incorrect. These people mostly just want the genocide to end.
The second position is a shitty opinion, but also contains an overt falsehood. It’s an objective fact that it’s false, and that fact should be reported in the story, but it isn’t.
I agree that they didn’t use enough anti-genocide supporters, their sources were one sided.
But your second critique would require a complete rewrite and would change the article completely.
I agree that pro vs anti genocide is the better way to approach the conflict, however, for reporting purposes, it makes more sense to call it an Israel vs Palestine conflict. Calling it pro vs anti genocide means that you have taken the position of calling the conflict a genocide (which I agree with, it is genocide). But as the article states, Israel does not see this as a genocide and neither do a lot of governments.
AP describes the conflict as a war of Israel against Hamas. Not a war of Israel against Palestine. This could be interpreted as 1) diminishing the genocide and 2) reporting on one specific facet of the conflict ie Israel against Hamas forces, which it could be argued, is a different conflict than Israel against the Palestinian people. This also means that by the articles definitions, Palestinian supporters are different than Hamas supporters.
Their second position does not say one side is correct and one side is wrong. They say
Israel and some supporters have described the protests as antisemitic
Israel and their supporters, not the AP describe protests as antisemitic.
critics say Israel uses such descriptions to silence opponents.
Critics, not the AP, say Israel is incorrect in their antisemitic descriptions.
If the article did what you wanted, it would be an opinion piece about how we need to call the conflict a genocide, and all future reporting should reflect this.
I don’t think this article is very supportive of the Palestinian people’s struggles. I also don’t think it supports the Israelis. It is tip-toeing the very fragile line of (falsely accused) antisemitism that they write about. It isn’t perfect, but it’s unfair to call it pro Israel.
Also I think what is really shitty is that outlets report on a genocide in this matter. But this article was about the response to Bob Vylan. I think both of us are angry about how anything related to the genocide has to be reported as the Israel Palestine conflict unless you want to receive an extremely negative response to your reporting.
Hell if we want to be all intellectual we can brand this as another symptom of the global capitalist system. AP can’t afford to call this a genocide. No news/corporation is brave enough to stand up to the genocide because it’s gonna hurt their bottom line.
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They are literally all doing this. There is more confected outrage about this than the actual slaughter of civilians by the IDF. I feel like I’m going mad.
They are engaging in an absolutely ridiculous campaign of gaslighting. It’s so outlandish and over-the-top that it would actually be hilarious if it was on a lighter subject matter rather than genocide, terrorism, and a litany of war crimes.
Israel has killed at least 100 people waiting for aid since dawn.
fuckign catchy though
The chant has been living rent free in my mind for days now.
“From the river to the sea, Inshallah one day Palestine will be free!” Yeah what a vicious chant.
C.E.A.R.T.A. and Death Death to the IDF!
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“Have the Rolling Stones killed, Smithers.”
Bob Vylan! Bloody auto spell.
led crowds in chants of “free, free Palestine” and “death, death to the IDF” [The BBC said:] “The antisemitic sentiments expressed by Bob Vylan were utterly unacceptable … " [Starmer said:] “appalling hate speech.”
“Free Palestine” is not antisemitic. Criticism of a nation state’s armed forces is not antisemitic. Especially when those armed forces are objectively committing genocide.
Pfft…
Only the rational and reasonable buy into what you’re putting forth here…
Which completely and entirely excludes any/all MAGAts and other assorted fascist/authoritarian types that appear to be consuming gov’ts globally.
🤡 🖕 💩 💩
Also excludes pretty much every establishment Democrat
Of course, it is both sides, the Republicans and the Democrats, who are causing a problem in the UK government.
Also excludes quite a lot of Liberals - a lot of people who’ve been brainwashed over the last 3 decades with the fake “leftwing” idea that “it’s not Racism if your descriminiatory acts and judgements favor those of specific races rather than disfavor those of specific races”, are having trouble processing the situation were the self-proclaimed representatives of an ethnic group they’ve learned to see as “victims” and “good people” are actually committing an extreme Genocide along ethnic lines.
I mean, many have change to the Humanist position that “people should be judged and treated based solely on what they support and they do, independently of race”, by many if not most are still ridding the whole “the entire race are victims” idea and de facto supporting Genocide by attacking the critics of the depraved genocidal actions of the self-proclaimed representatives of the “victim race”.
This shit would have never reached this level if it was only the openly Fascist being Racist.
I think the issue is the other chant, now I’m not saying that is anti-Semitic at all as that’s insane.
For what it’s worth fuck the IDF, terrorist assholes.
I’m sure “death to the IDF” is what some people have issues with rather than “free Palestine”
chanting death for any group idendity en mass will always be controversial, even if it’s for Nazis
I guarantee you can find droves of zionists that say “free Palestine” implies the destruction of Israel and is therefore antisemitic.
I know many zionists in my neighborhood Facebook group getting mad about events rising fund to Palestinians
Anyone who thinks those statements are one and the same is delusional and not even worth talking to.
If someone can prove to me they’re not a rational human they lose my interest
zionist
delusional
Correct.
No, chanting death to Nazi was never controversial. It wouldn’t even be controversial if it was death to the Russian army .
You are denying Palestinians right to self defense by opposing the chant death to the IDF
You’re bubbled, it’s undeniably controversial to chant death to people, especially groups of people. By debating it you agree it’s controversial, do you even know what the word means?
Please don’t try to say I’m denying Palestinans the right to self defence because I don’t want to chant death to their oppressors. My friend, that’s a wild statement and you should pipe down
Next you’re going to tell me I’m pro Russia because I don’t agree Putin should be assassinated
If you think russian soldiers can’t be killed in ukraine then yes you would be pro russia
I never said that, I don’t think that. I have no idea why you came up with that.
I said if. So do support the occupied figjting the invaders or not?
How did you go from talking about an English artist performing in England, chanting towards an English crowd about killing foreign army, to asking if I support defending your own nation aganst invaders
Do you think I’m supporting the horrors of the IDF because I refuse to stand up and chant death to the IDF?
I go to free palistine protests in my own country, I probably do more than most but I draw the line at calling for murder.
Extremeism is scary
Look, I agree with their sentiment and want to commend them for using their platform for advocating an end to this genocide. The US should absolutely not be considering it in granting visas.
But, yeah, maybe don’t do a chant calling for death to another country’s military. Don’t make it so easy for them. Make them ban you for simply saying “free Palestine”. Don’t let them say it’s because you made threats of violence. Bring the majority with you, don’t push them away.
In 1944 would it be controversial for someone to chant “Death, death to the SS!”? If people can’t see the genocide and see that military force against the genociding organization is necessary to stop it by now then they won’t be ‘brought to our side’ by using a kinder chant. It’s a type of civil disobedience, it brings more attention to the BBC and UK’s complicity in the genocide.
“Death, death to the SS!”?
What would it have accomplish? What does it accomplish?
It gets Lemmy known as a hotbed of terrorism. It may cause legal and/or political trouble for the admins of the site. And what does it do that other words don’t?
Look at all the discussion here and consider how it is or isn’t limited. What’s happening in Gaza is a genocide. The IDF is responsible for it. What do death chants contribute to that conversation?
controversies make people talk so they never forget what is happening in Gaza and who is responsible for . Denying the right to say death to a terrorist army committing a genocide is to deny Palestinians the right to self defense .
In 1944 would it be controversial for someone to chant “Death, death to the SS!”?
Um… Yeah. I’m thinking it would have gone down more or less the same as it is now. Loads of sane people agreeing with the sentiment, but the ones running the show wouldn’t and their bootlickers would follow suit.
This kind of reasoning immediately makes me think of MLK’s famous quote:
the Negro’s great stumbling block in the stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I can’t agree with your methods of direct action
You’re gonna compare chants at a festival to MLK? Come on.
DEATH TO IDF
Meanwhile, the nazi IDF can come and go and take a break from genocide in the US and the rest of the these European countries
I wonder what the term is for anti-palestinian? The equivalent to anti-Semite but for Muslims I guess? Just Islamophobia? That doesn’t have a good ring to it. We need a good term to use that Palestinians can play the racist card with for the next 100 years like Israel does.
Good question. It’s a venn diagram of Islamophobia, anti-Arab racism, and anti-Palestinian hate.
Not sure, but on a side point I reject any “anti semitism” claim because:
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usually its just used to try to silence you
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they’re the ones anti semitic because Palestinians and arabs are semitic.
So maybe actually we should re-purpose antisemitism.
TIL. Thank you.
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Whatever it is, the only way to win this battle is for people to start using that new word to call out people who are quite obviously hateful. With enough use of the word over the years, it will have the same shameful effect as what they have done with the word the other side uses
When did IDF become a protected minority group? Is saying “Death to Nazis” not allowed in the UK?
I’ll get downvoted for this but what im about to say is an undeniable fact. Chanting death for anyone is inciting violence and murder, UK governments and police can’t be allowing that, especially as there is no death penalty.
Yes I know, the IDF incite violence and murder, but does that make it OK to do in UK?
It may not be legally ok, but it is definitely morally ok to incite (and perform) violence against a genocidal force.
Crime is only legal if there’s a war. Or if you’re a cop. Or are rich and influential.
Did they say “IDF” or “IDF members/staff”? IDF isn’t a person, so maybe it’s more of a metaphorical death, as in dismantle the IDF.
I dunno.
I’ve thought about this, a metaphorical death/end to the IDF chant is completely acceptable. I guess it’s all down to intent
the artist chose “death” because it rhymes with IDF. so I wonder if it’s just one of those things
The inhuman madness of finding the problem regarding this situation to be protestors of Israel’s genocide, and not the genocide, is as absurd and abhorrent as it is overwhelming.
Let’s get outraged about and strive to cancel and imprison someone who used violent language at a force that is mass-murdering children. Just surreal. What leads someone to become this fucking detached from their humanity? It’s just incomprehensible.
To be honest I had never heard of Bob Vylan before, so the people screaming they should be banned (so they dont become known?) reached the opposite effect, at least for me personally.
I’ve been upping the listenership for kneecap and Bob vylan for about a month now. Saving for hard copies to help support. This all reminds me of the satanic panic that was so common when I was a kid. Such fuckery to suppress an idea.
Yeah, discovered an interesting artist through this
Yep. Just picked up their albums on Bandcamp to support them. I grew up with Rage Against the Machine and my little mind was blown when Evil Empire came out - these guys remind me of them.
Same never heard of them, but now streaming them to show support. They’re playing in my city on Saturday so might pop down.
Found their music thanks to this and I love it.
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Calling for death of any group is not allowed.
Gotta be fair to the genocide force of course.
Like they’re not an ethnic group or comprised of innocents. This is a force whose express intent is genocide and displacement.
Doesn’t matter. Calling for violence against any group is against TOS.
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This censorship is clear evidence of anti-masochism.
So I take it then, that any comment even vaguely in support of Israel will be removed as against the TOS? Because surely advocating in favour of genocide, even indirectly, is far worse than criticising the organisation actually committing that genocide?
Any comment advocating the destruction of Gaza or the Palestinians absolutely gets removed, fortunately there have been far fewer of those.
Similarly Russian and Chinese propaganda about Ukraine and the Uyghur genocide is also removed.
Speaking of Russian propaganda, is saying “Russian soldiers invading Ukraine should be killed” also bannable?
Saying anyone should be killed is removable, not bannable.
Your TOS do not prohibit it. It only prohibit call for violence against racial, ethnic groups and any minorities
Read the Sidebar, specifically Rule 6.
No, I know you won’t. Here it is, bolding is mine:
“Rule 6: Memes, spam, other low effort posting, reposts, misinformation, advocating violence, off-topic, trolling, offensive, regarding the moderators or meta in content may be removed at any time.”
It’s a quote. From the guy in the article… you also didn’t remove the other people mentioning it here…
Gotta protect the poor organization formed explicitly for genocide…
Can’t see how you are doing exactly what the UK police is doing? 😂
Would you also just follow orders when the Nazis tell you to?
Edit: ……and my point was made. Orders successfully followed. 👏 👏 👏
That one got reported, the others did not, but since you mention it, I’ll check the rest of the thread, thanks!
Edit only one other comment advocating violence, it was also removed.
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You can’t stop the mouvement and Palestinians has the right to self defense whatever you like it or not
I’m not interested in stopping anything outside bad behavior in the groups I moderate.
I have nothing to do with “the movement” and neither do you.
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Wait, you can’t even say a group should be eliminated? Not even people, but a group‽
Is “defund the police” also a bannable offence now?
No, because defunding the police is not an extermination program. Advocate for KILLING cops? That’s going to be removed with a quickness.
But we’re not talking about killing people. We’re talking about killing an organisation. If someone had said “death to Apple”, that is not the same as “death to Tim Cook and all his employees”.
We specifically ban calls for violence, if you argue “Death to Apple” in an environment where Apple stores are being firebombed, then yeah, we’d remove those statements too.
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You were warned, this is now a temp ban. Continuing to be an asshole will earn a permanent ban.
Destroying an army is not an extermination program either. It’s called war. Members of that group can choose to leave that group. It’s called deserting. Under international law, the UN charter, Palestinians fighting against the IDF, using armed violence against the occupation is a legitimate war. Are you denying the right of Palestinians to fight a war for their freedom?
Absolutely not, I’m denying lemmy users ability to say anyone should be killing anyone else as per your TOS.
Don’t like it?
anyone should be killing anyone else
Or, apparently, causing property damage 🤦♂️
OK, got it. So, according to you and the rules of the community, Ukraine is supposed to defend itself with strongly worded letters to the editor. Maybe my ancestors who fought for Greek freedom and independence were violent extremists. Even got my comment removed by mod for saying as much. How lovely. The door. Of course.
I hope one day you will realize the double standard that you’re applying to the Palestinian struggle for freedom and how this double standard was part of the things that enable their Genocide. Hopefully by then, there will still be Palestinians in Palestine.
The door.
No, Ukraine can do whatever they need to do to throw off an illegal invasion and genocidal statements and actions.
YOU are not Ukraine, and if you’re going to participate here, you will abide by the rules of the community which explicitly do not advocate violence.
Does this include the Russian military?
What about indirect stuff such as “The Ukrainians should crush the Russian invaders” ?
Indirect stuff I generally let slide, other mods may or may not. Plausible deniability and all that.
But yes, the videos some other communities allow showing drone attacks on Russian soldiers, cheering when people get killed? We’d remove those.
Of course a top level post would be removed because we don’t allow video posts, but as a comment, I’d remove those too.
The IDF, being an occupying army, under international law is absolutely a legitimate target for violent armed Palestinian resistance. Legitimate target of violent armed resistance. It’s the law.
Great, go to Gaza and sign up. Don’t advocate for violence HERE.
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Israel will be remembered in the History books the same way Germany circa 1930’s is today.
Not if the fascists keep winning.
Thank you for the sacrifice Vylan
We need to start banding together and voting these pro-genocide politicians out of office.
Oh, AIPAC supports you? Enjoy getting primaried. Watching their heads spin when Cuomo lost to Mamdani was fucking gold.
