Let the guy who wants to do even more genocide into office! That’ll show the genociders!
People really out here wondering how the dems could have such right wing policies while also never showing up during primaries or generals to indicate that moving left will pay anything back.
Fosters electoral climate where the people who at minimum are sympathetic to the genociders are the majority of likely voters.
"Why won’t the dems go against the genociders‽ How dare a major political party adopt policy positions that upset a contingent of voters who have consistently demonstrated they can’t be trusted to show up even when you do take the positions they want as evidenced by how they completely abandoned Bernie during the primaries BOTH GODDAMNED TIMES!!!"
Now to speak as a Palestinian American, your supposed stand for your principals is actively putting my people in even more danger, so quit acting like you’re their ally while you basically use them as a hostage to demand leaders stop letting them be held hostage.
If you think the answer to Dems being soft on Bibi is to let power back into the hands of the guy who handed him West Bank, East Jerusalem, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter, you’re either a covert zionist, or an unwitting agent of them, either way, you need to sit down and shut the fuck up before you get the people you’re talking over into even more danger.
I’ll ask the same question i did on the other thread. Why, do disaffected voters have to …
[show] up during primaries or generals to indicate that moving left will pay anything back.
Why not just poll them, or focus-group them, or use proxies like social media?
You seem to have no problem with the notion of leftist groups communicating preferred policies to Democrat strategists, but then seem to bizarrely assume that the only way to communicate a willingness to vote is to actually vote (for a party you don’t agree with).
Tell me… We all go out and vote Democrat. They get into power. How do they now know it wasn’t the support for genocide that won them the vote and go even further next time?
A take I’ve heard that maybe you’ll understand is this:
Leftist organizing in the US isn’t going to change the system 90 days before election day. There’s simply too much momentum with the two party system we have.
So now the situation is, vote for whoever you’d rather have in charge of the country while you do your leftist organizing for the next several years. I know I’d rather do that work under a Harris presidency than a Trump one, for a million obvious reasons.
To do anything else is to simply not understand the reality of the situation.
That’s a reasonable argument, but it leads to some pretty uncomfortable conclusions for democracy.
During our next “leftist organizing for the next several years.”, why would the Democrats budge an inch given that they know all they need to do is hold fast until the last 90 days and we’ll all fall into line and vote for them anyway?
We end up like the boy who cries wolf. All our protest and campaigns mean nothing because our votes are, in the end, absolutely guaranteed. The Democrats can have whatever policy positions they like.
I don’t see how 4 years or 4 days makes any difference. If they are guaranteed your vote come election day, they have no reason to shift policy in order to obtain it.
I’d say then you don’t understand the purpose of on-the-ground political organizing or what it looks like. It’s not about changing the whole system in one go, it’s about radicalizing as many people as possible for a grassroots movement. You use that to get local politicians in power favorable to leftist causes. Then you apply pressure upward.
We’re currently more radicalized as a country than we’ve been since the Red Scare. Just because the progress is frustratingly slow does not mean it isn’t happening.
But this discussion isn’t about grassroots or local politicians. Following the logic espoused in the OP you’d turn out in droves to vote for a local politician who offers policies you agree with.
This discussion is about the presidential election and what to do about two candidates who both actively support genocide.
One could conceivably not vote for Kamala and then massively support your local grassroots movement and politicians, or… You could vote for Kamala and then massively support your local grassroots movement and politicians.
Talking about whether or not to vote for Kamala has no bearing on what you then do at a local level.
And if that local-level politician doesn’t offer policies you like, same logic. Why would they ever do so if they’re guaranteed your vote anyway?
What’s at stake here is people actively arguing that we should just guarantee one political party our votes, no matter what their policies are, out of blind faith.
Show up at the primaries for anti-genocode candidates, y’know, like fucking nobody did this year because half the most progressive members of the party got ousted by israeli funded pacs, who’s messaging should have had zero impact on this supposed very dependable voting base that the democrats should really spend more effort listening to.
Wanna know how radicals took over the republican party? They established themselves as a major voting contingent, and then they hijacked all the primaries.
They would laugh in your face for suggesting that the way to push the Republicans towards their goals is to just not vote at all and then loudly declare it was due to insufficient trumpiness. Not even they are that stupid.
It’s extremely interesting that democratic politicians have not only managed people (traditional voters) into believing that this genocide is normal but if you demand or say anything against this genocide then these normal people will attack you instead of asking their party leader “Why is it essential for their party to keep supporting genocide?”
Just completely ignored the spelled put reason for all of this on your way to this comment huh?
Not voting does nothing but say that your opinions are not worth listening to.
That is the entirety of what that action says.
There is no other message that gets recieved.
Because under FPTP, there is no other message the Dems can afford to receive.
The math literally works out that you are either supporting them or that you are not, and that the best spent energy is on consistent voters who are able to be convinced, not on morons who think that saying maybe they’ll vote this time if all of their demands are met by election day with a divided house and senate, swearzies.
To party planners this stunt you’re pulling looks like nothing but Lucy with the football saying you swear you aren’t gonna pull it away this time if they took a run at it like that really old guy did in '16 and '20 before being completely abandoned at the polls.
Dependability and consistency is what gets names on primary ballots that can make change.
You have to show up and do the bare minimum work, consistently, or you are mathematically not worth the trouble of trying to please.
The time to make this stand was in the primary season, and y’all told the democrats that being even low-key anti-genocode is nothing but running at Lucy’s football yet again, after the most vocal members of the progressive flank about it all got knocked out in that stage of the election.
You had your chance to send the message and you fucking wasted it on the “none of the above” bullshit.
You literally saw the knife coming down on the people who were listening to you and instead of showing up for them you stood there and then scratched your head over why nobody’s around who’s listening to you anymore.
Fuck you.
Youcreated the current crop of Dems that have to be convinced even harder now that pursuing a cease-fire is worth anything electorally, and the only reason that’ll even be possible is a once in a century replacement of the candidate for head of the party.
I think the trick has been to give people a plausible narrative that makes them sound like the clever ones, standard power-play. People love that stuff, myself included, we’re all vulnerable to it. It’s why conspiracy theories work so well, but here, the same psychology is put to use rewarding people for saying stuff that’s obviously morally bankrupt. I think it works the same way a peacock’s tail works in evolution, the idea being that ‘surely no one would say something so obviously awful unless they had a really very complicated and convincing reason’
It’s allowed some of the decade’s worst atrocities to go virtually unopposed.
Let the guy who wants to do even more genocide into office! That’ll show the genociders!
People really out here wondering how the dems could have such right wing policies while also never showing up during primaries or generals to indicate that moving left will pay anything back.
Now to speak as a Palestinian American, your supposed stand for your principals is actively putting my people in even more danger, so quit acting like you’re their ally while you basically use them as a hostage to demand leaders stop letting them be held hostage.
If you think the answer to Dems being soft on Bibi is to let power back into the hands of the guy who handed him West Bank, East Jerusalem, and The Golan Heights on a silver platter, you’re either a covert zionist, or an unwitting agent of them, either way, you need to sit down and shut the fuck up before you get the people you’re talking over into even more danger.
I’ll ask the same question i did on the other thread. Why, do disaffected voters have to …
Why not just poll them, or focus-group them, or use proxies like social media?
You seem to have no problem with the notion of leftist groups communicating preferred policies to Democrat strategists, but then seem to bizarrely assume that the only way to communicate a willingness to vote is to actually vote (for a party you don’t agree with).
Tell me… We all go out and vote Democrat. They get into power. How do they now know it wasn’t the support for genocide that won them the vote and go even further next time?
A take I’ve heard that maybe you’ll understand is this:
Leftist organizing in the US isn’t going to change the system 90 days before election day. There’s simply too much momentum with the two party system we have.
So now the situation is, vote for whoever you’d rather have in charge of the country while you do your leftist organizing for the next several years. I know I’d rather do that work under a Harris presidency than a Trump one, for a million obvious reasons.
To do anything else is to simply not understand the reality of the situation.
That’s a reasonable argument, but it leads to some pretty uncomfortable conclusions for democracy.
During our next “leftist organizing for the next several years.”, why would the Democrats budge an inch given that they know all they need to do is hold fast until the last 90 days and we’ll all fall into line and vote for them anyway?
We end up like the boy who cries wolf. All our protest and campaigns mean nothing because our votes are, in the end, absolutely guaranteed. The Democrats can have whatever policy positions they like.
I don’t see how 4 years or 4 days makes any difference. If they are guaranteed your vote come election day, they have no reason to shift policy in order to obtain it.
I’d say then you don’t understand the purpose of on-the-ground political organizing or what it looks like. It’s not about changing the whole system in one go, it’s about radicalizing as many people as possible for a grassroots movement. You use that to get local politicians in power favorable to leftist causes. Then you apply pressure upward.
We’re currently more radicalized as a country than we’ve been since the Red Scare. Just because the progress is frustratingly slow does not mean it isn’t happening.
But this discussion isn’t about grassroots or local politicians. Following the logic espoused in the OP you’d turn out in droves to vote for a local politician who offers policies you agree with.
This discussion is about the presidential election and what to do about two candidates who both actively support genocide.
One could conceivably not vote for Kamala and then massively support your local grassroots movement and politicians, or… You could vote for Kamala and then massively support your local grassroots movement and politicians.
Talking about whether or not to vote for Kamala has no bearing on what you then do at a local level.
And if that local-level politician doesn’t offer policies you like, same logic. Why would they ever do so if they’re guaranteed your vote anyway?
What’s at stake here is people actively arguing that we should just guarantee one political party our votes, no matter what their policies are, out of blind faith.
That’s not a democracy, it’s a theocracy.
You’ve successfully looped back to my first point.
You vote in the current election to get the conditions to do your grassroots work under.
Show up at the primaries for anti-genocode candidates, y’know, like fucking nobody did this year because half the most progressive members of the party got ousted by israeli funded pacs, who’s messaging should have had zero impact on this supposed very dependable voting base that the democrats should really spend more effort listening to.
Wanna know how radicals took over the republican party? They established themselves as a major voting contingent, and then they hijacked all the primaries.
They would laugh in your face for suggesting that the way to push the Republicans towards their goals is to just not vote at all and then loudly declare it was due to insufficient trumpiness. Not even they are that stupid.
Your post seems to be attached as a response to mine. Since it addresses nothing in my post, I can only assume this was a mistake?
It’s extremely interesting that democratic politicians have not only managed people (traditional voters) into believing that this genocide is normal but if you demand or say anything against this genocide then these normal people will attack you instead of asking their party leader “Why is it essential for their party to keep supporting genocide?”
Just completely ignored the spelled put reason for all of this on your way to this comment huh?
Not voting does nothing but say that your opinions are not worth listening to.
That is the entirety of what that action says.
There is no other message that gets recieved.
Because under FPTP, there is no other message the Dems can afford to receive.
The math literally works out that you are either supporting them or that you are not, and that the best spent energy is on consistent voters who are able to be convinced, not on morons who think that saying maybe they’ll vote this time if all of their demands are met by election day with a divided house and senate, swearzies.
To party planners this stunt you’re pulling looks like nothing but Lucy with the football saying you swear you aren’t gonna pull it away this time if they took a run at it like that really old guy did in '16 and '20 before being completely abandoned at the polls.
Dependability and consistency is what gets names on primary ballots that can make change.
You have to show up and do the bare minimum work, consistently, or you are mathematically not worth the trouble of trying to please.
The time to make this stand was in the primary season, and y’all told the democrats that being even low-key anti-genocode is nothing but running at Lucy’s football yet again, after the most vocal members of the progressive flank about it all got knocked out in that stage of the election.
You had your chance to send the message and you fucking wasted it on the “none of the above” bullshit.
You literally saw the knife coming down on the people who were listening to you and instead of showing up for them you stood there and then scratched your head over why nobody’s around who’s listening to you anymore.
Fuck you.
You created the current crop of Dems that have to be convinced even harder now that pursuing a cease-fire is worth anything electorally, and the only reason that’ll even be possible is a once in a century replacement of the candidate for head of the party.
I think the trick has been to give people a plausible narrative that makes them sound like the clever ones, standard power-play. People love that stuff, myself included, we’re all vulnerable to it. It’s why conspiracy theories work so well, but here, the same psychology is put to use rewarding people for saying stuff that’s obviously morally bankrupt. I think it works the same way a peacock’s tail works in evolution, the idea being that ‘surely no one would say something so obviously awful unless they had a really very complicated and convincing reason’
It’s allowed some of the decade’s worst atrocities to go virtually unopposed.
Nu-uh! I said I’m anti Genocide so I can’t do no wrong with my vote! /s
Sometimes I wish I could vote in the US Elections too. They are much more dramatic then ours.
Trust me, drama is worth a lot more when seen than it is when experienced.