I get that anything is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. That’s besides the point. My point is, beyond speculation, what do crypto coins represent?
I also understand that the value of the US dollar is being questioned almost as much without the backing of gold.
But what I really want to know is what is at the foundation level of Bitcoin that people are buying into?
I have a basic understanding of the blockchain, etc. I sold 1BTC in 2017 for $1200 when I thought that was as high as it would go. At this point, at over $100kUSD and rising steadily, what is the $ limit and what is that limit based upon? I thought it was based on the value of mining to check transactions but this seems… not worth $100k to me.
I’ve been thinking, the only tangible value I personally see in Bitcoin, because it’s not really being used as legitimate currency, is for criminals. By now, there must be trillions of dollars in BTC acquired by criminals holding corporations hostage. When you’ve got people like Trump involved (either explicitly or by way of manipulation) with an executive order to establish a crypto czar, this suggests to me that he’s creating pathways for bad actors to more effectively gain more wealth. These are the people who are most excited in Bitcoin, beyond speculation.
I mean, there’s little to nothing on the up and up with crypto, right? It’s a scam. Right?
Please, factual answers only. I’m looking for someone to dispel my speculation with genuine economics of the matter.
More than dollars.
It’s value is in remittance if nothing else. It’s cheaper than western union. But the network is only “cheaper” in that way because it has distributed the costs of running the network to the speculating miners who solve pointless puzzles with monsterously greedy processing farms hoping to win the lottery and get back more than they put in. It’s a ponzi scheme, it takes more from everyone who came later and gives the value to early adopters who were there when you could solo mine coins with whatever hardware and a bitcoin was worth 7 dollars in exchange. Look up how many coins Satoshi is supposedly holding. If they were to cash out even a small fraction the whole market would crash. So use it as a remittance service but not an asset if you must. This from someone who mined 27k worth of it back when it was 7$ and spent it all on illicit medical cannabis before it inflated to 50k
I believe I’ve seen recent cost analysis of using crypto exchanges to transfer money across international borders instead of doing direct conversion through whatever “classical” money transfer service and it showed that due to exchange rates, price fluctuations between crypto exchanges, gas fees, and fiat exchange rates into and out of crypto from usd to whatever currency of the recipient its actually tangibly cheaper to just use a direct wire transfer and currency exchange.
I’ll have to see if I saved the post with the price breakdowns to send you but I just wanted to share that in case you hadn’t heard about it yet. If you had seen that and did find it cheaper somewhere else I’d also be interested to hear where it is actually cheaper. That’s just the most recent analysis I had seen of the costs to exchange from fiat to crypto, send internationally, and then withdraw it in the native currency.
Rip to the millions you smoked away btw lol I would’ve done the exact same honestly
USD FX pairs are currently cheaper using traditional transfers.
However going from a non G20 currency to another non G20 currency can be much cheaper using crypto.
Ah thats interesting, yeah the study i saw was specifically looking at usd to pesos. Good to know!
The real answer is: It depends how you define value.
Can you make money with Bitcoin? Yes. Are you likely to make money? No Is the technology useful applicable? Yes Is it being used and applied ethically and for the good of people? No. Is it a ‘store of value’? No, it’s more like an extremely volatile stock or a lottery ticket. Can you use it like money? Yes Is there any reason to use it like money? Not really, not even among other cryptocurrencies.
Depending on which of these aspects of Bitcoin matter to you it will be more or valuable.
The US dollar actually is tied to something of value: it’s the format the us government will take their taxes in or else they will increasingly use their powers as a monopoly on fhe legitimate use of force until you give them what you owe
Crypto is only worth what others will pay for it. Which is why I don’t own it
Further to that it is also what they pay their debt in. You can buy debt in dollars and earn interest in dollars
This is a negative for dollars, not a positive.
Being able to inflate your way out of debt makes a currency less valuable.
In value yes, but as a tool it’s very valuable
Valuable to the people creating debt in that currency. Not to other stakeholders.
No
Cryptocurrencies don’t rely on a central entity and is the Lemmy equivalent to Reddit compared to the fiat currency. I like it and I like the technology but
- Good luck at having a proper stable economy using only crypto. Cryptobros hate central banks but their policies ensure that a loaf of bread doesn’t cost 3 times as much the next day. I’d rather have a central trusted authority than not having one
- Bitcoin by itself sucks. It was the first crypto so it’s the most common but it’s slow, heavy and costly to operate and to transact on
Cryptobros hate central banks but their policies ensure that a loaf of bread doesn’t cost 3 times as much the next day.
The exact opposite. Only after abandoning the gold standard does a central bank have the power to make a loaf of bread cost 3 times as much the next day.
Central banks are a relatively new invention and are not essential in the slightest.
They are able to regulate the interest rate. We don’t perceive a change of value of our fiat on a regular basis. What yesterday was $1, today is $1.0000001. Good luck maintaining the same purchasing power with Bitcoin (in terms of stability)
Because they can’t run out of money, central banks can be the largest buyer and seller over the short term.
But there is no economic rule that demands those entities exist. For example, from 1863 to 1913 the US had almost no use for a central bank.
Note that I’m very far from suggesting the world’s economy should run on bitcoin. Just that central banks are not as essential as they are made out to be. They are used as much to cause inflation as they are to control it.
Thank you for your informative reply :)
Paper money isn’t worth anything innately. Gold isn’t either. Not diamonds. Nothing has innate worth except food, air, drinking water, and possibly shelter.
Gold and diamonds have intrinsic value
Gold is needed for computer parts, and diamonds are used for cutting
They are more than just shiny
Their value will “never” hit 0 (Bitcoin would be worthless without gold for computers)
Yes, we could find substitutes in the future, but for the substances to not be useful somehow is so low and would have to be an apocalyptic scenario. And in an apocalypse, gold could even be worth more.
…Except that gold, like the dollar, and like bitcoin, has the value it does because people believe it does. Sure, gold’s a great semiconductor. But if that was all we used it for, the price of gold would be a tine fraction of what it is. Diamonds are great as abrasives and in certain cutting applications, but that’s all synthetic now. Natural diamonds only have high value because of artificial scarcity and advertising.
But if that was all we used it for, the price of gold would be a tine fraction of what it is
That’s intrinsic value.
Yes.
But many people–and I’m not saying you do this–but many people get gold, silver, and diamonds confused, and think that their intrinsic value is linked to their perceived value. does that make sense?
I get that
I wouldn’t buy diamonds or gold hoping they increase in price just as much as I wouldn’t buy bitcoin to do the same.
If you offered me 1USD in Gold, Diamond, or Bitcoin.
I would take the gold. It has the most intrinsic value.
The probably that gold hits 0USD is less than bitcoin hitting 0USD.
The only reason you’d take bitcoin is if you think that it has a higher ceiling. Intrinsic value is the floor. But that is gambling
I opt for bitcoin because it has more utility value for me.
My bank makes it an enormous pain in my ass to buy things from overseas vendors; they won’t process any payments that are going outside of the US border. The rationale is ‘fraud’, even when you’re dealing with well-known and trusted vendors. Even when I try calling my banks and telling them to pre-authorize the charges, they won’t go through. The only way I can get around that within the established financial system is by using a 3rd party payment service; those 3rd party services make their money by lopping off a percentage of that purchase. E.g., if I’m buying something for $1000 from China (and we’re going to ignore tariffs, duties, taxes, and shipping costs for the moment), then I may have to pay $1040 for it, because of the fees that are taken out. On the other hand, if I’m buying from a trusted vendor, and I use bitcoin, I can just send it to them. Bitcoin doesn’t care where it’s going, and–assuming you don’t care about speed of confirmations–transaction fees can be quite a bit lower than using any other payment system. (And, BTW, transaction fees are built into all payment processing systems; it’s just not apparent to individuals on the purchasing end. That means that if something costs .001btc, then I have to send, say, .0010001btc to the vendor, but then the)
Speculation doesn’t play a role in it for me.
I have no direct use for gold; I can’t plate connectors.
(Paper) money is practically actually valuable because you need it to pay taxes. Gold, diamonds etc you could do without. Of course there is more nuance but taxes force people to value currency and therefore also accept it from others (because you need some of it or you go to jail), which gives currency the circular value.
It’s not valuable, it’s a convention. You may as well use conch shells or Bitcoin. Don’t matter what it is, it doesn’t have value until we all agree it has value
In the same way that MLM and Ponzi schemes are worth something.
How profitable it is is directly proportional to how willing you are to fuck over everyone around you. To how much of an asshole you are.
You have to think about Bitcoin in a different way from any other form of money that has ever existed because it’s literally the first of its kind.
I work hard for money. I expend my time and energy and talent in exchange for money (USD, in my case) that I can then trade in the future for the things I want/need. So money is an abstraction of my time and engergy, stored for later use.
Unfortunately, USD is pretty highly inflationary and it loses a lot of value over time, so it doesn’t make sense to save it for very long. I have to either spend it or invest it because every day I hold on to it, it loses a little more of its original purchasing power.
I could invest my money in gold or silver because those things are certainly more finite than USD and hold value better, but precious metals are heavy, difficult to transport and store in large quantities and I can’t easily use gold to pay for my daily expenses.
So here’s an idea: What if instead of converting my time, energy and talent into some physical thing that I have to hold onto and contend with inflation, etc. we just cryptographically assign that value to an entry on the public blockchain ledger? Now, that value is permanently locked into part of the total 21 million supply of bitcoin and no one can create more of it. Bitcoin is literally the hardest form of money ever created.
If I want to exchange that value with someone else in the future, I use my private cryptographic key to prove that I own it and I can effortlessly transfer it to anyone anywhere in the world in a matter of minutes.
You can’t think of Bitcoin as some “thing” that you buy because a “bitcoin” is really nothing more than a unit of measurement. The real power of the bitcoin network is the ability to store and transmit value in a completely secure and trustless way that’s immune to the manipulation of fiat currency.
If you’re truly interested in understanding the answers to your question of “is bitcoin actually worth anything”, I recommend the book Broken Money by Lyn Alden. It’s an easy read and it will absolutely change how you see money.
Thank you.
I guess the part where I’m stuck is the current volatile state of this “currency” compared to the idea or the promise of it.
Should I buy BTC now or wait? Is it a currency or an investment?
If something is an investment, can it also “be money”? Like, if I buy a painting for ten grand then twenty years later its worth 15 grand, I suppose I could trade the painting for something of an agreed upon equal value or I could sell it for money with which I can buy things. This concept isn’t really how we’ve experienced money in my lifetime.
It’s this push / pull of crypto’s facade where I’m struggling. It’s looked at as both currency and investment at the same time. It doesn’t seem to have much value today to use as currency because as soon as you buy something you’ve lost money. I could take 100USD worth of BTC to buy a thing and tomorrow that hundred dollars could have been worth $110. It’s not possible to say something is “worth” .01BTC because that value will change tomorrow.
It seems it’s only worth something today because people are investing in the promise of it. We don’t know if it will ever really be used as a currency as you’ve described. And, if and when that day comes to pass, what will the value of 1BTC be worth? Should I just wait five to ten years to buy crypto to avoid the speculative market? Maybe I miss out on capital gains over a hundred thousand dollars - is that so bad?
Or, in your opinion, is it inevitable that this will be the world wide currency of the future?
Money is an IOU. Bitcoin is an IOU but the ledger is decentralized rather than in control of banks.
Once you start seeing the value of any currency as one of itself rather than trying to express it in a different value system, a Bitcoin needs nothing but its inherent worth as payment.
That said, because we all still use traditional forms of currency, a Bitcoin is now worth, say, 112000 breads. It’s worth two new mid-sized cars.
Value is based on scarcity and demand. If something is hard to come by, like bitcoin currently is, the price is hardly affected. But if demand is higher than the supply, prices skyrocket. Demand dies down the moment people feel like crypto is a scam. Supply will stop since Bitcoin has a physical limit (of the top of my head 21 billion). It is no longer realistic to start mining the stuff and receiving it for payment is just silly at this point.
But to flip it around, what is the value of a US dollar, without expressing it in terms of another currency? It used to be tied to gold. You can’t really state one dollar is equal to, say, one bread. The price of bread has fluctuated. Or, has the value of a dollar fluctuated and has a bread always been worth one pair of socks?
Baseline: everything is worth one of itself and trying to express it in another value system is just a snapshot, a moment in time which will have changed soon after.
Thank you for a real answer like I specifically asked for.
The fact that Bitcoin does represent some amount of effort and that there’s a limited supply does seem to give it some value. While there is a theoretical finite resource of gold, it’s still being discovered. Which, theoretically, makes it less valuable than a predetermined finite resource. And, the US dollar continues to decline - almost by design during this administration.
How BTC is used today and in the future can continue to be debated but I’m satisfied in understanding it’s a limited supply of something that represents some amount of effort.
If you haven’t yet, I can really recommend reading Satoshi’s whitepaper on what Bitcoin is really for. The fact that crypto is now used as an asset to trade in order to gain ‘old’ money really spits in the face of the ideology of a decentralized ledger. And the fact that a dollar value is assigned to it means it becomes the target of a lot of scams. The fact that a decentralized ledger also means greater anonymity has made it a popular target for illicit activity as well.
But by design, it really only wants to take power away from banks in order to stop devaluation, make it impossible to charge people for transactions and to put control of assets into the hands of individuals. The amount of money currently in circulation is way more than the actual physical amount available, because banks can lend you money they don’t even have. Bitcoin would make this impossible.
Bitcoin is a ponzi scheme with a really long time horizon. In a way, any fiat currency kinda is as well. The difference is that a government backed fiat currency like the US Dollar is backed by the US Government saying “you will accept the USD, or else”. That backing keeps the game running. Bitcoin has nothing like that. The only reason it keeps going is because of speculation, money laundering and the purchase of black market goods.
So, as long as you can go buy drugs or move money across borders with Bitcoin, it will have value. As long as it has value, some folks will speculate on it. That can keep prices up, right up until it doesn’t. So, as is always the case for speculative assets, caveat emptor.
Bitcoin has massive value as a tool to transfer money, anonymously, and through borders effortlessly. Its extremely valuable for money laundering, scamming, stealing, and dodging tariffs or raising money (see how much crypto is stolen by north Korea)
When it was first released, I was interested in the decentralized nature of it as a currency. I liked - well, I still like - the idea of a currency that isn’t controlled by a government. At the time (2009-ish?), I also thought it was anonymous, which also appealed to me; cash is mostly anonymous, but it can’t be used online, and even then the fact that society was increasingly moving toward cashless - and very traceable, and usary-heavy - credit cards was clear. Stripping privacy is critical to control.
Bitcoin isn’t anonymous, but other cryptocurrencies are, and bitcoin laid the groundwork. To your question, I, and many other people, paid some money to get some bitcoin - I think I spent $120? Mainly so I had enough to explore the space and play with it, because even then mining seemed painfully slow. Once money was spent on it, by whomever and for whatever reason, it acquired value: the value that, if you had some, you could sell it to someone else, or trade it for goods. In that way, it has the same value as an IOU on which I’ve scribbled “Good for $10 from Ruairidh Featherstonehaugh” and signed my name. Flawed metaphor, but you get there idea - the paper itself has no intrinsic value.
Despite that mining is so horrible for the environment, the concept that motivated Bitcoin still IMHO has value. An entirely digital, cashless system, not controlled by any one organization but rather by the community of participants. If Bitcoin didn’t have the environmental cost - if it has been proof-of-stake rather than proof-of-work, or if the computational work was actually something useful to society like gridcoin.us, it wouldn’t be so controversial. Sure, people are still going to be bitter about not buying into it early, but as long as people are willing to trade goods and services for it, it’ll have real value based on market rates.
This is an eloquent way to sum up how I feel about it! Good show 👏
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I was unironically checking if someone had posted this or else I would.
Thank you.
This is actually quite good. OC? / Source?
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I always pay my respects to a fellow knower
o7
To you and yours
i’m glad you said that, i was confused if this was either an apocryphal from ayn rand… or the great nagus, who knows.
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Crypto is as valuable as you want it to be because it is not real. Not being real is a big problem for a currency.
