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On 21 December 1991, Boris Yeltsin, President of Russia, sent a letter to NATO asking it to consider accepting Russia as a member of the alliance sometime in the future. In the letter to NATO, Yeltsin stated, “This would contribute to an atmosphere of mutual understanding and trust and would strengthen stability and cooperation on the European continent. We regard this relationship as serious and wish to develop this dialog on all fronts, both on the political and military levels. Today we raise the issue of Russia’s membership in NATO, however, we see this as a long-term political goal”.
Then, a bunch of stuff happened and both sides realized it was advantageous to not have Russia in NATO. Turns out it’s easier to win elections when there’s a cold war going on. You can read about it here.
Russia wasn’t exactly a bastion of stability at that era, especially as Shock Therapy economics absolutely destroyed the country.
Additionally, all these other countries that wanted into NATO vehemently hated Russia for years of occupation. They’d probably have been far more hesitant to join if Russia was in there.
Not saying there wasn’t malice on the side of the West, but at no point in NATO’s existence had inviting Russia into the fold made any strategic sense.
Including Russia in the military alliance meant to safeguard others from Russian aggression seems wild. I know things were very different in 1991 and there were hopes that Russia would become like Western European countries, but it just feels like it would’ve made NATO pointless and not in the good sense of it not being needed anymore.
Well, off course. Its about trillions of dollars in weapons and arms selling to the allies. Peace is not that profitable. Who would be the bad guy now, if Russia had joined NATO?
Also in 1992 there was the Wolfowitz Doctrine, a U.S. defense policy document, which laid out America’s grand strategy post Soviet Union, describing how the U.S. will maintain global dominance. The CHINA, CHINA, CHINA (with Trumps voice), is now a “problem” to that Doctrine, and the U.S. is trying to control the damage.
I don’t say that Russia was the innocent victim, but this is how the game is played in that level. Were Russia in the place of the USA, they would have made the same move.
I’d imagine Russia would still act like the dickbags they always have but now they’d be inside the military alliance that was supposed to defend against Russian aggression.
Or they could be a totally normal and peaceful liberal democracy. But for me it’s jushard to imagine that being the likely outcome
Nobody knows. It depends how much more profit would be for the Russian elite class to have a democracy (maybe they could had played along to joined EU). As you see USA is not particularly democratic now-days (she is in danger to become Russia).
I’d imagine Russia would still act like the dickbags
In your alternate reality Russia is still bad because you’re just Russophobe. The current proto-fascist Russian government is a direct consequence of western decisions, first by dismantling the Soviet Union and then by not allowing Russia to Europeify.
I think it’s strange how you don’t allow Russians or other Eastern European people agency of their own.
Typical ML worldview. Defiance to the Ruling Class isn’t tolerated.
Russians wanted to join Europe, it simply wasn’t allowed, I don’t know what part of agency I’m removing from Russians. Funny how some countries are “democratically” allowed to join NATO (was there a referendum in Ukraine?), and some aren’t.
Russians are already part of Europe. Or like half of it is. And the members in EU and NATO always get to decide who to allow as members. Ukraine nor Russia is a member.
I was thinking agency in Eastern European people wanting to get away from under Soviet Union/Russia and join NATO and agency for Russians in some of their communist hardliners gave Soviet Union the final killing blow by destroying the New Union Treaty.
Tired bullshit. Bolshevism is a hop and a skip away from Fascism. The West let the Soviet Union fail for the wrong reasons but the working class were never gonna control the means of production as long as the Soviet Union endured.
Bolshevism is a hop and a skip away from Fascism
Fascism is when you guarantee jobs to everyone, when you give housing as a universal right at 3% of monthly average income, when you guarantee universal healthcare and free education to the highest level, when unionization rates are 80+%, when you don’t engage in economic imperialism, and when you’re the only country in the world to provide Spain (my homeland) with weapons to defend itself from fascism in the Spanish Civil War, and when you have more female engineers than the rest of the planet combined.
the working class were never gonna control the means of production as long as the Soviet Union endured
Surely the working class enjoys the means of production so much more now that Russia became a proto-fascist state infringing the rights of women, lgbtq and racialized people, when unemployment exists back again, and when Russia is militarily invading Ukraine. So fucking wonderful for workers to lose a decade of life expectancy, to never recover 1990 GDP levels and to suffer from unemployment, alcoholism, violent crime and mafia, drug abuse, suicide and capitalist exploitation. So much better and democratic workplaces than the USSR with 1 in 10 workplaces being vacant and workers literally being able to leave a job and find another within 2 weeks on average.
Was expecting a lot of ml / ca rage. Was not disappointet.
Its funny seeing solarpunk users ideologically 180 as soon as russia comes up.
ml, stand for marxist leninist I guess. But what does ca mean ?
I believe Canada.
Perhaps it’s communist apologist? It’s hard to tell with these people they have so many weird in jokes and references, rather like Nazis and their special numbers
I don’t know, but saw a lot of tankie stuff from lemmy.ca lately.
???
Some people forget to spray against Russians under their bed every night, bam, they become Russian assets.
I’m from Eastern Europe and not even the hardcore communists here are in favour of Russia’s war of aggression. In fact, the only ones in support of closer ties with a nation that has consistently fucked us over are the neo-nazis who want communion with the Russian Orthodox Church.
It’s mental to see anyone on the left supporting Russia.
They believe a lot of what they hear about Russia is propaganda and not true. Oh boy would they get shocked if they actually got what they ask for. You would turn out that all of the propaganda was in fact reality, too often do those two things get confused.
Sometimes they will even go to Russia expecting a warm welcome and they get stuck on the front line and you never hear from them ever again.
Definitely happened to the conservative dude who moved his family to Russia for the bigotry towards Queer people and after signing up for the Army thinking he would be a welder got shipped to the front. Wife was getting increasingly desperate since there was no contact and he probably would have died before getting to talk to her again but the optics were getting too bad for the Russian government to ignore.
Its a bizarre quirk of Terminally online Leftists. Modern Russia is arguably an Organized Crime Ring that owns a country but also meets most if not all of the criteria for Fascism. State controlled media has even voiced support for return to the days of the pre-Soviet Russian Empire.
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Are you seriously suggesting it was the CIA’s fault that Yanukovych was removed from power?
Motherfucker stole billions, killed hundreds of protesters, and committed high treason by conspiring to use the Russian military to quell dissent.
If the CIA helped that’s fine, people like that should not be in power.
If the CIA helped that’s fine, people like that should not be in power.
Imperialism is good if it’s against the “bad guys”. /s
Hey nice buzzwords. Do you happen to have ANY evidence of Cia intervention? Just one thanks.
We have lots of evidence of popular unrest and demand for Yanukovich to be ousted by the people of Ukraine
Hopefully you won’t categorize a 2014 BBC article transcribing a leaked call from Victoria Nuland as Russian Propaganda. She openly conspires as to who they wanna put as president of Ukraine, and propose Yatsenyuk, the guy who would go on to become prime minister after Yanukovich. From the transcribed call:
Nuland: Good. I don’t think Klitsch should go into the government. I don’t think it’s necessary, I don’t think it’s a good idea.
Nuland: [Breaks in] I think Yats is the guy who’s got the economic experience, the governing experience. He’s the… what he needs is Klitsch and Tyahnybok on the outside.
Oh Lawd! I’ve never heard about the Nuland telephone call! Not a banal conversation between two diplomats discussing who their preferences are for the election that’s ongoing in the country they reside in. There it is, folks! The big gotcha that CIA was involved.
That’s the standard of evidence we’re working with here, folks.
Hey nice buzzwords. Do you happen to have ANY evidence of Cia intervention?
I was referencing the hypothetical.
Why “buzzwords”? Would you care to explain why you think that “imperialism” wouldn’t apply to that (hypothetical) scenario?
It sounds like the Ukrainian people wanted the dude removed from power
Ok, Imperialism is good if we think “the people” wanted it. Got it. /s
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I think popular will winning is generally a good thing
Who defines the “popular will”?
The people probably
Are you implying he wasn’t a bad leader?
Helping people remove a corrupt president is generally good. If the KGB wanted to help us oust trump I wouldn’t cry about it. (Though let’s be real, they’re more likely to help him cling to power if anything)
You realize you’re advocating for covert, top down regime change, right?
Not very democratic of you, mate
I’m advocating for fascist and corrupt regimes to be overthrown.
Viktor Yanukovych was not taken out in a covert top down regime change, he was ousted by the Revolution of Dignity; there were over half a million people gathered in the capital demanding change and parliament voted to remove him without a single dissenting vote.
I’m advocating for fascist and corrupt regimes to be overthrown.
What if the fascists (AZOV) do the overthrowing?
Viktor Yanukovych was not taken out in a covert top down regime change
You’re changing the topic. You literally said that it’s ok to top-down regime change if someone’s a “bad leader”.
Ah yes, whataboutism to the rescue
Damn if only people in Moscow had considered joining NATO, oh wait they did, I’m sure Ukraine will join any day now don’t worry, ukraine uber alles and all that, how good is imperialism, heck yeh
Nice stroke you had there
If only they tried to join in good faith…
Assuming they were sincere about it, it probably wouldn’t have lasted. The way they maintain and assert authority over autonomous regions would’ve had to change from stamping out separatist movements to more diplomatic and democratic solutions.
Though it might’ve reduced the rampant corruption we saw after the dissolution of the Soviet Union that moved Russian military hardware into warzones at the time.
The people in Moscow have other more pressing issues inside their country that needs fixing before concerning themselves with external alliances.
No other country was accepted into NATO while in the state that Russia is in right now.
That’s like letting a wife beater volunteer at an abused women’s shelter
The cognitive dissonace hits hard on this one, how dare you join a defensive pact!
Ask Yugoslavia how “defensive” Nato is.
Do you mean Serbia, or are you just confused in general about things?
NATO’s intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia’s bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Kosovar Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region. Yugoslavia’s actions had already provoked condemnation by international organisations and agencies such as the UN, NATO, and various INGOs.
Are we talking about this?
Where defense?
Defending people against ethnic cleansing seemed to be the goal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia#Goals
Cool motive, still interventionism. /s
Edit: That was also the official justification of Russia’s invasion. I don’t buy either justifications.
Yeah Russia was pissed we stopped little brother Serbia from ethnic cleansing the infidels and now makes a mockery of our altruism.
Only an idiot believes they’re sincere though.
The best understander of politics entered the chat. /s
I don’t know what that is. NATO did an intervention on the ethnic cleansing, do you mean that?
NATO sure as shit didn’t defend any of their member nations. Interventionalism is when you invade a country claiming that it’s “for their own good”. See: Afganistan or the second Iraq war.
You don’t need to buy anything, you just need information literacy and critical thinking. Which is not to say you shouldn’t be critical of US foreign policy - god knows there’s lots to criticize. But comparing the genocide in Yugoslavia to the War in Ukraine is a clear sign of acute mental darkness or you intentionally amplifying authoritarian propaganda.
You’re a loser either way because of your utter failure to take intellectual responsibility. You might be just one in a sea of millions of ignoramuses but that’s not excuse
You’re a loser either way because of your utter failure to take intellectual responsibility. You might be just one in a sea of millions of ignoramuses but that’s not excuse
So… it’s ok if I disengage after that rude comment, right? Spare me your speech on “information literacy” if you’re simply planning on insulting me anyways, please. Just insult me right away. That’d be at least more honest.
Its not critical thinking when you just parrot everything you’ve been told.
I wonder why only 10 years after the dismantling of the Eastern Block Yugoslavia turned from a problem-less multi-ethnic state to a country riddled with racial violence… Surely the west has nothing to do with that!
Because it wasn’t problem-less. Those tensions always existed under the surface.
And why did those tensions explode later? Just coincidence?
I thought mostly everyone blamed Serb nationalism that the socialist leaders kept in check
Ask Libya how defensive NATO is.
Did those countries jointly attack Libya because the NATO charter demanded it or because those countries agreed it was a good idea? Did all NATO countries join in attacking Libyan forces or just some of them? Joining NATO doesn’t give the NATO alliance sole control over who you’re country goes to war with.
It was a NATO-lead coalition.
The destruction of the Libyan airforce so Gaddafi couldn’t drop bombs on his civilian population like Assad did in Syria was a good thing that saved lives.
Unless you’re a tankie who jerks it the images of schools and hospitals ripped to shred by barrel bombs.
Gaddafi was bad, sure, but NATO reduced libya to a state where there’s now open air slave markets.
Gaddafi was bad, sure
By creating the country in Africa with highest Human Development Index instead of becoming your run off the mill slavery-sustained petrostate like Saudi Arabia?
You can rape and murder innocents. Kill anyone who questions your regime. Blow up airliners. All good as long as thr HDI number is high enough.
I bet you’re a huge fan of Israel. They have such a high HDI number compared to their neighbors. It excuses all atrocities.
Oh, which country did Libya invade? What was the civilian murder rate compared to neighboring countries? Give me numbers instead of vibes, please
Gaddafi doesn’t seem as bad only because you have never seen published photographs of his atrocities. Extrajudicial killings, torture, public executions, political repression, and elimination of dissent. Lots of horrors that I guess are okay as long as the trains run on time.
We also don’t know what a Libya where NATO didn’t intervene looks like. It’s not unbelievable that the civil war would’ve resulted in the same result but with a much higher body count.
The destruction of the Libyan airforce so Gaddafi couldn’t drop bombs on his civilian population like Assad did in Syria
Brown leader inevitably bombs civilians if not for glorious white interference
good thing that saved lives.
Yeah, surely Libya wasnt catapulted into horrifying civil war that lasted decades after and killed hundreds of thousands of people in formerly the most developed country in Africa…
You’re accusing me of racism but I could just as easily accuse you of thinking the only way for Africans to be properous is if they are ruled over by a strongman dictator.
The people of Libya rose up against Gaddafi in thr arab spring. The civil war had already begun.
I’ve seen what a barrel full of explosives and metal shrapnel does to the inside of a school classroom when dropped from a helicopter. NATO prevented that from happening in Lybia and you’ll never forgive them for it.
the only way for Africans to be properous is if they are ruled over by a strongman dictator
That’s only if you believe the western propaganda. [Libya had a functioning representative democracy and the role of Gaddafi is overblown. Morocco today is a monarchy and so is Saudi Arabia and I dont see you calling for the bombing of either country.
One of the cornerstones of democracy is education for everyone, and Libya had an extremely successful education system that turned Libya into one of the countries with highest education level in Africa, hardly pointing to the decisions of a dictator wanting to keep the masses oppressed.
I understand you believe Gaddafi was a bloody, ruthless, corrupt dictator, but Libya was arguably more Democratic than any country in its surroundings and the source of most claims of horrible dictatorship come from western media apparatus of “eagle burger freedom institute”.
The General People’s Congress existed as a formal legislative body, but it did not make Libya a democracy because any opposition to Gaddafi got disappeared. The system was an authoritarian regime with a centralized power structure under Gaddafi himself, utilizing the GPC to maintain the appearance of popular involvement without true democratic governance.
Morocco today is a monarchy and so is Saudi Arabia and I dont see you calling for the bombing of either country.
If the people of Morocco or Saudi Arabia rose up like the Libyan people did in the arab spring, I would absolutely support using NATO to stop those dictators from bombing their own civilian populations.
Libia has been at war almost since Gaddafi’s death at war. Is that a better situation than with Gaddafi?
Edit: missing words.
Almost what?
“At war”, sorry.
The people rose up against Gaddafi in the arab spring. He would’ve used his airforce to drop bombs on his civilian population the same was Assad did.
It was a civil war, not a revolt.
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You mean the action taken under a UN mandate to implement a no fly zone and protect civilians?
Woke liberal gay propaganda, obviously.
Well, I see nothing gay in joining a military alliance. More like propaganda where the true benefactor is Aipac.
I’d say the true benefactor is whichever country now has the protection of the military alliance
The only one who benefitted from Ukraine trying to join Nato was Aipac. Surely not the ukrainians who live in an endless stalemate of war.
They should’ve been a member earlier so Russia wouldn’t have dared to attack. Unfortunately now they weren’t members and Russia invaded
Happened the same to Georgia. You may be right, but it’s just a fact Russia is gonna oppose having Nato at it’s borders the best it can. Same way US didn’t enjoy Cuba missile crisis.
The Russian and American imperialism is sickening but the neighboring countries have to constantly deal with that. And Russians especially act surprised when countries want to join NATO, it’s amazing.
