Since Trump’s election, gun groups catering to progressives and people of color report a surge in interest as they look to defend themselves in a country that, to them, feels increasingly unstable.
I support this
Gun owner and former military. One can purchase a rifle or pistol, but if you are not constantly training, muscle memory, with live rounds and maintaining your physical and mental fitness, you will fuck it up. The things I could do in my past, I can no longer replicate them with the speed and efficiency I once had.
One does not necessarily need the level of capability you’re referring to. The Jews fighting in the Warsaw ghetto did just fine for several weeks without that capability. The same lesson is also being demonstrated in Ukraine.
Yes, the more training, the better. But get a grip. You’re spreading FUD, bootlicker.
Not at all, because you will be the moron that will forget about the safety selector, end up shooting yourself in the foot or the friendly next to you.
Hilarious, the fantasies you tell yourself just to avoid realizing you’re the problem.
Like MAGA voting for Krasnov, go ahead and FAFO with a gun. I guarantee you will not be laughing.
oh you Americans and your 2nd amendment shit. I’m so glad we don’t have that here.
For real, these American gun apologist have shit for brains.
IRL America feels like a parody of GTA America
Idiocracy
there are already more firearms than people in the US.
but yeah, more guns… yay.
I’ve decided on a shotgun. With buckshot you don’t have to aim, you get multiple shots, it’s inexpensive and you can hit multiple targets in unarmored areas. It’s just for home defense, I’m not sure if we should be carrying outside. We have to be careful though, life is worth saving not shooting.
Just a heads up, the whole “you don’t have to aim” is a complete myth. Shotgun spread is completely blown out of proportion. It’s somewhere around 0.5" to 1" per yard with barrel length, choke, and shot type affecting spread. Unless you’re insanely rich and live in a mansion, you’d be within 10 yards so you’d only get 5" to 10" of spread which really isn’t much especially since the pellets may not be evenly distributed within that diameter.
For anyone looking to buy a gun, educate yourself first to know what you’re getting into and go to the range consistently so you know how to use it. If you don’t do both of those, you’d be at risk of hurting yourself or someone else if ever you have to use it in a life or death situation.
I appreciate your feedback. I’ll think about it. Ar-15 was my other choice. If it was legal id buy a rocket launcher and just blow the whole house up because at that point fuck it…
SupraMario is right about getting an ar15. Lots of time and effort went into creating a great system with a well thought out set of compromises. From magazine capacity to parts availability to ergonomics, it’s a really solid system and I highly encourage people who can to own one per person in your household.
AR15 is easy to shoot and aim. It’s also low recoil and weight. People should get them for home defense before getting a shotgun, you’re more likely to miss with a shotgun than an AR
Second this. Unless you’re sawing the barrel to a third, it doesn’t actually work how youd think if you never used a real shotgun.
In reality the best things about shotguns in self defence are that if you miss, you probably dont kill your neighbor. The bad part is there is very little penetration on pellets for any armored target.
You could also just use slugs which do work great for self defense, but can easily kill your neighbor.
You should’ve gone with the Zodiac method.
Pistol and a flashlight in a supportive grip. When you do it right, the “dark spot” at the center of your flashlight beam is your general point of aim. Once you build that muscle memory, it’s better than a crosshair on a TV screen.
Ah the illusion of safety.
I fervently hate Trump, his cronies, and his supporters. However, buying guns is a laughable response to a serious threat.
Maybe you buy a 9mm. Maybe you buy an AR15. The US government has stealth fucking bombers. Tanks. Fighter jets. Satellites. ICBMs. Your pea-shooter is fucking useless against a government that has decided its own people are the enemy. Trump is in the midst of authorizing the military to fire on civilians. Do you think he is going to specify that they use commercially-available firearms just to keep things fair?
You know what is not useless? General strikes. Civil disobedience. Protests. Boycotts. Journalism. Do you want to hurt Trump? Sell your stocks before the bubble bursts. Don’t shop. Cancel your phone and read a newspaper. Call in sick. Organize. Collaborate. Help each other. Bring the economy to a screeching halt and the billionaires who put Trump in the white house will put his ashes in a shoebox in about 10 days.
A civilian populous that already has small arms and some ammo, will make the opening stages of a war less difficult for the side that is willing to engage with them in hand, and bring their arms into military service.
Even now, your standard gun is very valuable in the Ukrainian defense against Russia. A rifle or shotgun is useful for taking and holding ground. An artillery battery is good for blowing shit up, but it can’t take land nor interact with people that goes in a way beyond pure destruction. An armed soldier can keep bread lines in good order, prevent sabotage, scout, build fortifications, escort armor, and many more unremarkable but key functions.
On top of that, fancy gear requires severe logistic chains. A civil war in America would shatter many links. Further, the military isn’t a hive mind, many experts on both sides will go their separate ways, which inherently means that many difficulties with deploying complicated items will become much greater. A rifleman is relatively simple to train and field, while a tank or aircraft requires many manhours to train and maintain.
I recommend watching the German War Files regarding Germany’s military vehicles in WW2. Many of the issues you see there, still apply to the modern world.
Someone should have told the Vietnamese that their guns were useless back in the 1960s. The USA had bombers, tanks, fighter jets, satellites, etc. I bet if someone would have let the Vietnamese know that their guns were useless they wouldn’t have won that whole war.
I accept your point. An insurgency can drag on for decades. Look at afghanistan for a more recent example: all that time, money, and materiel wasted for the Taliban to pop back up the instant US troops left.
Maybe progressives could drag out an insurgency long enough that MAGA will give up and hand power back to the people. Trump and his gang would have to flee the country, but i suppose it could happen. American troops had somewhere else to go: back home. Where will Trump’s millions of supporters go? I don’t think the people who pledged their lives to avenging St. Charlie have anywhere else to live.
In the meantime, though, there will be purges, bombings, terrorism, secret police, torture, surveillance, massacres, etc. The vietnamese people had to endure unbelievable horrors before they drove out the Americans. Trump has bragged, though, that if he had been in charge, the vietnam war would have ended in US victory. I wonder what he had in mind: death camps? nuclear weapons?
The responses i have had so far have not addressed the second part of my argument: that strikes, protests, and civil disobedience can be wickedly effective. Trump’s friends are making money like crazy right now - that is, some of them. The farmers hit by his tariffs? They’re mad. The ranchers who are about to see their market flooded with Argentine beef? They’re mad too. That is Trump’s greatest weakness. He promised the ultra-rich that his presidency would make them even richer. If they start to think that Trump is costing them money, his ass is grass.
The plan is never armed warfare on equal terms against the full might of the national military. It’s for Proud Boys, the Klan, Zimmerman and Rittenhouse, countless other real threats that want to see Democrats and minorities dead. It’s for the implicit threat that keeps right-wing authorities from pushing too hard.
The groups you mentioned have the implicit backing of your government. In some cases these people were pardoned by Trump himself for their various crimes. Trump is the real problem. The klan and the proud boys are gonna keep coming as long as Trump is in power. Small arms can’t fix Trump.
Also, i think you have it backwards: the implicit threat of gun-toting progressives is not going to keep the authorities at bay - it will be the excuse Trump uses to escalate. He is going to escalate anyway - I understand that - but it is harder for him to order the army to shoot a guy in a frog costume than to shoot somebody who just killed an ICE agent.
I feel like i need to emphasize that i really fucking despise MAGA. There will be a party at my house when decent Americans turn on Trump and put him in the ground. I just think that small arms fire is going to prove ineffective.
Most soldiers have no desire to fight Americans. Also the military cannot function very well without a population supporting it. There is also advantages the people have. Like being hard to find, not costing a million dollars to deploy, not being predominantly 18-20 year olds, having much more tactical flexibility. Bombers and tanks don’t mean much outside of a conventional war.
I think you also have to consider the uptick in right wing terrorism, like people driving cars into protests or showing up with guns to intimidate communities. Being armed is a way to protect yourself and your community from threats beyond the government
I’m still not willing to get one. I am statistically safer without one in the house. I do have a couple large dogs, I collect knives and I have collapsible batons stashed in key locations.
Maybe once the kids are out of the house.
You’re statistically more likely to exit a fight with serious injury using a knife over a firearm.
You aren’t considering the correct statistics. Source: I’ve actually read the stats you’re citing and they don’t apply to this situation.
In nearly 50 years I’ve never been anywhere else close to a knife fight, I’m also not a moron.
The situation I’m talking about is home defense and yes, I have dogs, I live in one of the safest areas of my state and I do have self defense plans if anything does happen. Guns are not part of that strategy because I have kids in the house, and despite them being trained, I still am not going to keep one around just so that I can ‘feel’ safer.
You do you, I’m not going to stop you, even if I were anti-gun, the ship sailed long before I was born in this country. So instead, since they are a reality in the US, let’s be smart about them and recognize that individual situations are different for each of us.
I was like “Just get a safe, store them outside, yada, yada”. The I read about the kids. Yeah, That’s a wise decision.
Yeah, I’m not anti-gun, I just follow the stats. Multiple children in the house and they are more clever than I am.
I believe a person can beat the stats. But they can’t make someone else beat the stats. Good choice.
That’s just not understanding the statistics. Lots of people leave their chambered weapon wherever, they keep it on the kitchen counter, on the couch, on the bed, etc. then their kids find it and accidentally fire it.
Crazy violent people also have guns, and they will use what they have at their disposal to be violent. The gangster wannabe meth head that shot his roommate over an argument is in that starts m statistic.
Buy a safe, learn to use the gun and store it properly in the safe. You’re not less safe than before.
An armed minority is harder to oppress!
An armed minority is harder to oppress!
Doesn’t seem that way at the moment does it.
At this moment, seems not enough are armed. The comment I replied to is literally saying they aren’t willing to get armed…
Think Haitain revolution, Algeria vs french occupiers, Northern Ireland, Palestinians currently surviving a nuclear superpower occupier, there are many more examples in history. When the oppressed give up their arms, they get trampled on.
Already reflected on but
An armed minority is harder to oppress
The oppressors will always have better weapons. The best way to lose a fight is to be overconfident. A smart and organized minority is even harder to oppress.
Don’t forget silent weapons like slingshots and bows/arrows. It’s going to freak them out when they look down and see an arrow sticking out of their chest.
Also arrows will go through the average kevlar vest.
Contact or join your local SCA group. They may be anachronists as opposed to anarchists, but if you want to learn how make and use weapons and armor of that sort there are few more accessible teachers and trainers.
One of them made large amounts of basic body armor from heavy gauge plastic barrels for use by protesters a few years back. They may not stop bullets, but they are very_ effective versus “non-lethal” rounds and similar.
And yes, the person did get a visit from the FBI, who let the person keep on making as they weren’t working on weapons of any sort. Just the armor.
Slingshots are an effective deterrent, extremely compact. Get one with a forearm brace for increased stability. Best to use spherical ammunition (ball bearings, marbles), but pebbles will do in a pinch.
I shot a recurve bow for a decade. With a moderate draw weight and sharp arrowheads they can be lethal. Takes much more practice, strength and patience than a gun. You can attach fur to the bowstring to make it quieter. Impossible to conceal, and quite conspicuous.
Compound bows and crossbows are even more lethal with great precision and range, but louder and heavier.
I tried to order a slingshot and ammo on Amazon to send to my son, but it wouldn’t send it to his state (NY). So I sent to myself, and I sent it to him.
I doubt slingshots are lethal, but they can cause damage, and they’ll hurt real bad, enough that a barrage of them could make a bad character pause. Even just having them pepper the street around the target would be enough to back them up.
What if citizens started carrying slingshots everywhere, and using them? Imagine if ICE was trying some shit in the street, and they were barraged by slingshots from apartment windows all around them?
Too few, too little, too late.
I hope not, but I think a lot of them are still living with the fear of yesteryear that has not updated with the times and the threat of their neighbors having it in for them, and not being as worried about the legal repercussions.
Too few, too little, too late.
Literally. They made gun ownership an obsessively partisan subject specifically so the other side wouldn’t be armed, neutering the left’s political capital.
Trump is only in power right now and wrecking our constitution and nation because despite having a minority support base, that base is the most unhinged, heavily-armed, devotely loyal group in the country. It’s the rawest, purest form of power. That’s what Jan 6th was about, he had no intention of actual insurrection, he just wanted to demonstrate that he could turn his people on a target. It was an arms test, like detonating a nuke in the Nevada desert. “I can do this anytime I want.”
Up until very recently, most of the deaths in wars were caused by disease instead of combat.
Give it a few months and the anti-vax stances paired with colloidal silver and horse-dewormer will leave plenty of guns and ammo for everyone.
The destruction of our healthcare infrastructure will accelerate this.
I really thought about this last year, took the class and everything. In the end I decided not to get one. My reasoning is this: Having a gun and not a lot of experience in what to do with it is like playing a board game for life-and-death stakes that you have never played before.
Maybe I will regret at some point in the future, but I had trouble coming up with scenarios where I wound up thinking “Thank God I pulled my gun out, now all my problems are resolved.”
And you’re gonna get that experience by choosing not have a gun?
For almost my entire life, I never thought I’d own a gun. Now I do. You definitely need to practice with it at a range of your choosing, and keep practicing. I didn’t start carrying until after I’d been to the range a dozen times. I still don’t carry every time I go out. I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert, but I’m happy to talk about what I do know if ever you’re interested.
Something I’ve noticed: carrying makes me extremely polite. Because if I have to draw, I need to already have been doing everything right, or I’m going to prison. Even if I’m totally in the right, don’t even get charged with anything, the aftermath of such a situation would be life-changing, in a very bad way. There is no good outcome to an imminent threat to life or limb; being armed gives me the chance of choosing the least bad one.
I don’t pretend to be any kind of expert, but I’m happy to talk about what I do know if ever you’re interested.
I’ve done shooting at the range a few times. I know the physical mechanics, I’m talking about knowing what to do and how to react in a situation where people are killing each other or might start killing each other. Like a lot of things, it seems straightforward until you’re in it, and then all of a sudden it really doesn’t.
Like I feel like even if I did one of those “tactical situation” training weekends or something, I wouldn’t really like that gave me anything about what I actually need. What I need is how to make the right decisions. And, like I was saying in the other comments, I don’t feel like gunfire is even really any kind of solution to what I see now as the most urgent active physical threat to my safety. If it was a mob of Proud Boys? I mean, maybe. But on the other hand I probably don’t have a mob’s worth of bullets.
Again, maybe I’m wrong in all this, maybe I will regret. It’s hard to say. Maybe I will regret staying in the country at all. Let’s see.
I’ve bought some snap caps (dummy rounds) so that I can practice draw, rack, aim, trigger in the house. (They don’t let you draw at the range.)
… how to react in a situation where people are killing each other or might start killing each other.
Yeah, I don’t have an answer for that one. Most people probably don’t. My logic for getting a gun was “If you find yourself in a situation where you wish you had a gun, it’s too late.” I have no expectation that I’ll need a gun anytime very soon, although the wind can change direction in a hurry. But I do have an expectation that I’ll need a gun eventually, and if that’s true, I should have one now so that I can practice with it.
But I do have an expectation that I’ll need a gun eventually, and if that’s true, I should have one now so that I can practice with it.
Yeah, I feel you on that. You’re not wrong.
Like a lot of things, it seems straightforward until you’re in it, and then all of a sudden it really doesn’t.
I’ve been in a couple life or death situations in my life. One of them is a “holy shit” story. Anyone who has never been in a situation like that but thinks they know how they’ll react in one—doesn’t. You can’t predict it until you’re in it. You’ll be terrified and not thinking straight no matter how you react.
carrying makes me extremely polite
I saved this comment from u/jlbraun about 13 years ago (would link to the source comment but fuck that site):
As a gun owner, you have to be cool-headed, moreso than the police ever have to be.
You do not start shit, act aggressively, flip the bird, roll your eyes, talk shit, or even raise your voice. To anyone. Ever.
A combat instructor (who happened to be Buddhist and a Marine) once said to me: "From now on, if no one’s life is on the line, you will lose every argument. You are always wrong. You are sorry for impinging on their day. You will apologize and apologize again. You will back the fuck down. You will put your tail between your legs. You will let them talk shit about your ladyfriend. You will let them call your mother a bitch and a whore and your dad a bastard. You have no ego. "
“You do all this because if you are the one to start a fight, by default that fight now has a gun in it, and if you start losing, you’re going to pull it and kill him. And even if you don’t go to jail because you could convince the jury that it was self-defense, you’re going to have to live with the fact that you could have saved someone’s life and yet you let your ego kill someone.”
“You are not the police, so don’t act like them. Though all of you [civilians] are better shots than the police, you do not have the training, the continuum of force policy, or a union plus free lawyers protecting you if you screw up.”
ed: He also said: “but after backing down and trying to apologize, if at any time you then feel your life or that of a loved one is in danger, put three rounds into his [cardiothoracic] vault, call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby. You did all you could for your attacker, and he was the one that made the final decision to kill himself.”
call the police, give a statement, go home, and sleep like a baby
This is the only part I strongly disagree with
I actually have seen someone ask a lawyer about this. The answer the lawyer gave was:
- Call 911 right away
- Say you’re in a fight and you need the police, give the location, hang up
- Wait for them to arrive, cooperate. Probably best to put the gun down before they arrive. They will be twitchy, they will really want you to give a statement. Do not. Be fully cooperative and respect their desire not to get shot and to know what’s going on without saying anything. Say you want a lawyer and you’re happy to cooperate with a statement after that. Probably they will arrest you.
- Once you’re in contact with a lawyer, your statement to them can be through your lawyer. Be friendly and polite, but also, just because you didn’t do anything wrong doesn’t mean you can’t get fucked.
I modified step 2 slightly, this was from back before there were cameras everywhere so you probably need to be more mindful of that. Don’t do anything that makes you look guilty, definitely nothing that makes you look dishonest. But for fuck’s sake don’t just “give a statement” if you just killed somebody.
100%. Holster your firearm, say where it is, allow the police to disarm you. Point out witnesses. You’ll certainly need to identify yourself with name and date of birth. Say nothing else, especially when your adrenaline is up: talk to a lawyer.
I was just sharing that comment to demonstrate a proper mindset and wasn’t intending it to be an actual guide anyone should follow - but you’re definitely right. A good carry permit class will cover what is recommend to do and say if you’re ever involved in an incident.
Yeah. I mean you might be fine. If the cops show up, you explain what happened and you didn’t do anything wrong, and everything checks out, you might get to go home and the detective might call you the next day just to close out the loop and you’ll be fine. But… do you want to bet the rest of your life on it working out that way?
Again, be polite. As a matter of realpolitik it is extremely important that you not fit into the “hostile suspect who just killed somebody” bubble. But, also, while you’re being polite and getting access to your lawyer as quickly as possible so you can clear the air and give you reasonable statement to them, it’s still Shut the Fuck Up Friday. You have no idea what the cops and prosecutors may decide to read into what single sentence you happened to randomly blurt out while your blood is still pounding in your ears.
Plus what if they assailant turns out to be an off duty cop or someone else connected to the violence industry?
You likely have no idea who you just killed and who’s coming to investigate it. Shut the fuck up and let a lawyer talk.
You likely have no idea who you just killed and who’s coming to investigate it
I saw a bodycam video once where some cops were attempting to speak with a woman who had signs of mental illness who was alone in the house with a small child. One of her relatives was alarmed by this situation, called the cops, and a couple cops were now trying to retrieve the child from the house calmly, without success.
The sergeant showed up, said maybe it was a fake custody situation, said maybe someone was in the country illegally, yelled at the woman who had called the police, and had everyone leave.
Once the cops left, the woman he had yelled at tried to go in the house and resolve things herself, the mentally ill woman physically attacked her, and the cops came back and long story short it all got sorted out. The sergeant actually apologized to the woman for being an “asshole” in his words. Sure. But also, the situation could easily have ended with a dead kid or the woman who called the cops getting shot or something.
Bottom line: Yes. There are plenty of good cops out there, don’t listen to Lemmy about it. But there are also plenty who are incompetent or it’s just not a good day for them. Don’t just give a goddamned statement.
That’s because pulling a gun out for most things just escalates the situation.
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it’s better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
Which is why if ICE is knocking at the door, the situation is already escalated and it’s better to die and try to take a fascist with you than go to a second location.
I mean, after a certain point, yes. Solzhenitsyn talked about it, also I think some of the founding fathers had things to say about it. In our current situation, absolutely the fuck not. For one thing, it’ll get you killed obviously, for another thing, it’ll give them the pretext they’re looking for to start with all kinds of shit to all kinds of people that they can’t get away with right now. They are praying for something like this to happen. That’s why they play up anything which looks vaguely like it into something it isn’t.
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power. I know it sounds like I’m just backing down from fighting back… all I am trying to say is that starting gunfights with the secret police is about like starting a fistfight with your abusive spouse: You’re not wrong. But also, you’re not going to win through that method.
Here is some extensive information about what does work after quite a lot of research: https://www.files.ethz.ch/isn/126900/8008_FDTD.pdf
if ice is raiding my house, I am already dead. the only thing I get to decide in that scenario is how long it takes and who I take with me.
as for giving them the pretext, they will create whatever pretext they feel they need. they are already trying. remember the loser who shot migrants at the (Dallas?) ice office a few back? the only thing the government (and most media) would say about it was that he was shooting at ice officers when it was clear he was targeting immigrants.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn’t care about pretext. if they do not fit the pretext they want in the timeline they want, they will do it themselves.
fascism does not care about legality, and it doesn’t care about pretext
Very very true. However, most of the country does. If they were already “doing it themselves” and this stuff didn’t matter, they would have arrested Pritzger, kicked Jimmy Kimmel off the air, that CBP commander in Chicago wouldn’t be showing up to court every morning, things like that. There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.
I can pretty much guarantee you that if the citizens of Chicago had been obeying your advice here so far, Pritzger would have been arrested by some sort of federal agents already.
All I can really say is read the book. I know you have your way of looking at it and I’m honestly not trying to disrespect it, because I get it, but also, how many successful revolutions have you written the guidebook for? I think for Sharp that number is close to double digits now.
It would help if you included resources that prove that that book was the pretext for double digit successful revolutions.
That said, “There is a reason they’re starting by focusing on vulnerable communities without much support from the rest of society, and obeying this elaborate pretense that they’re “enforcing immigration law” and pretending to stay inside those boundaries so elaborately.”
Where do you think this is leading to, and the point theyre trying to take it always leads to armed resistance. Buy a gun and be safe. It’s really not even almost a chore to have a gun tucked away.
It would help if you included resources that prove that that book was the pretext for double digit successful revolutions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Dictatorship_to_Democracy
It’s known to have been directly involved in Burma, the Arab Spring, Serbia, and Angola. It’s been translated by local activists into Amharic, Arabic, Azeri, Bahasa, Belarusian, Burmese, Chin, Chinese (simplified and traditional Mandarin), Dhivehi, Farsi, French, Georgian, German, Jing Paw, Karen, Khmer, Kurdish, Kyrgyz, Nepali, Pashto, Russian, Serbian, Spanish, Tibetan, Tigrinya, Ukrainian, Uzbek, and Vietnamese. I have no idea how many of those led to it later being involved in a revolutionary attempt (let alone a successful one) in a “proof” sense. I was just telling you what I think about it.
Here’s a story: https://edition.cnn.com/2012/06/23/world/gene-sharp-revolutionary/index.html
The author is the real deal. He’s spent time in federal detention in the US, he’s spent a lot of time with people in resistance movements in these places.
I want to call your attention to this part specifically:
The Burmese were amazed by Sharp’s theories. They couldn’t believe they had been fighting and killing for 20 years when there was an alternative.
I don’t know if you can really call modern Myanmar a “success story” but to me they seem like they’re making more progress now than in 30 years of bloody armed confrontation with the military, which of course is more capable at military things.
Excited to get into this, thanks for elaborating
Dang. Buying the book next time I can afford it. Thanks for sharing
I hope your gun is securely “tucked away”. I have a kid and adding a gun to my household would make it statistically less safe.
I think it’s important to know how to safely handle guns, but in my life it’s completely unnecessary to own and maintain one. I know where I could steal a few if society collapsed, which I don’t think is likely anytime soon.
Kids aren’t in my home
does most of the country care about legality and pretext? if they did we wouldn’t have the president or supreme court we do.
I’m familiar with sharps writings. he makes really good points but I think you are vastly underestimating the complexity of a revolution in a country such as united states. yes, his texts have been instrumental in may revolutions but as far as I am aware they have never been tested on such a world stage, and certainly not with the myriad of technological factors at play in the US, which changes things drastically as far as what is feasible.
I subscribe to a far more franz fanon approach, which is that nonviolence relies on your oppressors sense of humanity. if they are opressing you, their sense of humanity is so drastically different than ours that it is frivolous to try to appeal to it.
I mean, after a certain point, yes.
Two frogs sit in a pot of water, one turns to the other and says “were on a fire, we should leave before the water boils”
The second frog turns to the first and says “you’re being alarmist, things aren’t that bad.”
This sounds like the second frog.‡
It might be the more practical choice to keep backing away and keeping yourself and the people you care about out of the spotlight as long as possible, it’s certainly the safer choice and one that probably leads to a longer life…
You are certainly more optimistic about the future of the country than I am. I train because honestly I find it a little fun, competing with my own best times on various drills and courses. I also in recent years have come to train even harder and begun introducing LGBT friends to firearms, because I believe the country is headed toward civil war.
I’m not inviting my LGBT work friends to my range because I want them to attack ICE. I invite them and encourage them to buy their own firearm and train for self defense because I have literally heard other coworkers say, out loud to be met with nods and agreements, “any day now they’ll let us loose and I can go killin all them fs and tr***s (slurs for LGBT people)” and no end of bullshit about how “mentally ill” and “unstable” they supposedly are.
Besides, if my choices are “concentration camp v0.95” and “best case scenario being on the run after a shootout with the gestappo” then I know which choice I’m making.
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do. That probably a good thing, I’m a depressed pessimist with tons of anxiety about the state of the world. If more people were like me we would be like 10 years into a Civil War already or worse.
‡(frogs don’t actually sit in blowly heating water as certain movies like to say, they still will leave at some point when it gets uncomfortable)
The second frog turns to the first and says “you’re being alarmist, things aren’t that bad.”
This sounds like the second frog.‡
You gotta read what I wrote again then lol
You definitely have way more faith in our (metaphorical) neighbors and the system than I do.
Absolutely not. Actually one of the really alarming things to me is that I don’t think this country has the structures and traditions in its society anymore that would enable it to build and maintain a working technological society (let alone a working democracy). I hope I am wrong, but I actually don’t even think that the current fascism crisis is the worst thing that we’re facing. I think it is a symptom of a much deeper disease which is a lot harder to get rid of than any one leader or political faction no matter how fascistic.
Every day that goes by where ICE is the illegal mother fuckers and the people of the country are the innocents, is another day they lose a little more backing of the courts, the military, the city police, all kinds of stuff like that which is their pathway to power.
Fascist don’t care what is or isn’t illegal. You sound just like the average German citizen in the 1930’s. Tell more about all the power they are losing while continuing to do the bad things.
Read the book. It’s based on a lot of research and it’s been actively used in practice in defeating a whole lot of governments a hell of a lot more repressive than Trump’s.
Whatever the merits of the violent option, however, one point is clear. By placing confidence in violent means, one has chosen the very type of struggle with which the oppressors nearly always have superiority. The dictators are equipped to apply violence overwhelmingly. However long or briefly these democrats can continue, eventually the harsh military realities usually become inescapable. The dictators almost always have superiority in military hardware, ammunition, transportation, and the size of military forces. Despite bravery, the democrats are (almost always) no match.
The maintenance of nonviolent discipline against violent opponents facilitates the workings of the four mechanisms of change in nonviolent struggle (discussed below). Nonviolent discipline is also extremely important in the process of political jiu-jitsu. In this process the stark brutality of the regime against the clearly nonviolent actionists politically rebounds against the dictators’ position, causing dissention in their own ranks as well as fomenting support for the resisters among the general population, the regime’s usual supporters, and third parties.
Emphasis is mine, that’s the answer to your question. He actually says later on that there are circumstances where violence is needed, I couldn’t quickly find that quote, but he basically just lays out the history of where and how different types of resistance action have worked.
I realize it’s not convincing when I just quote it out like that. Read the book. There are strong reasons and historical examples for everything he’s saying in those quick summaries.
One thing about this is that it seems to labor under the assumption of a symmetrical (or near symmetrical) fight, and that is exactly the last thing that a resistance group should be doing.
The most effective strategy for a resistance group is to be as expensive a problem to deal with and as difficult to get rid of as possible. Defend the community for sure, but the real fight is against the logistics of an armed force. The more time and money they have to waste, the better. Certain kinds of paint are impossible to get off of glass, like the glass used in bulletproof windshields that would need to be completely replaced, or the kinds of clear plastic used in things like riot shields and visors. At the extreme end, there’s options like paying these fascists thugs a “visit” in the dead of night. All these human traffickers have homes to go back to at night, and if enough face repercussions, it will quickly become difficult to find people willing to stick their neck out and possibly become yet another new fountain.
All this to say, I don’t think anybody who actually knows what they’re doing or intends to do something thinks that they’re going to help form a standing army and fight the US government. Sporadic and random acts of self defense or defense of the community? Sure. Suicide by cop? I would be surprised if people weren’t thinking about that eventuality. But Rambo is not gonna happen and any violence will definitely happen alongside the peaceful protests that we’ve been seeing for months now, and not instead of them (at least, not until things get very very bad).
One thing about this is that it seems to labor under the assumption of a symmetrical (or near symmetrical) fight, and that is exactly the last thing that a resistance group should be doing.
He talks about guerilla war in parts of it.
All these human traffickers have homes to go back to at night, and if enough face repercussions, it will quickly become difficult to find people willing to stick their neck out and possibly become yet another new fountain.
The same is true of judges, Democratic congresspeople, state governors… all kinds of people. So you’re right back to the symmetrical conflict.
Gene Sharp has a lot of great points. I also recommend his book The Politics of Nonviolent Action which has a lot more detail.
However, in the end I asked myself what would Picard (of Star Trek) do and I realized he would be armed and capable and use violent resistance as a last resort.
So I bought a Mossberg 500 and am training with it once a week. I even feild strip it and put it back together. I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out. I’m also learning a bunch about radio.
Another book I recommend is Full Spectrum Resistance which has examples of why it helps to have both nonviolent and violent resistance.
So if you don’t feel right with a gun, I think that’s ok. As long as we are doing something productive while we can. And it doesn’t hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the unthinkable does happen.
I also started training in Brazilian jiu jitsu which is a pretty fun way to get into shape. I am getting good at grappling and choking big guys out.
Honestly everyone should take some kind of self-defense classes. I know something about it but I am horribly out of shape right now, which probably isn’t a good idea.
And it doesn’t hurt to level up some skills that you can use to help your community if the does unthinkable happen.
This is very sincerely a really good point. I might do some first aid classes and things, it does indeed seem like shit will get quite a lot wilder before it ever gets unwild again.
So what happens to my family in that situation? They get shipped off to a camp and tortured because of my decision?
Rather have ICE kill me in the comfort of my own home instead of going to a death camp I can’t find on the map.
Never go to a second location…
Glad you thought through and came to a well informed opinion. I own several guns, and while I believe that leftist should arm and prepare themselves, I can also respect people knowing what they’re comfortable with. Too many people want you to be an owner or anti-gun, but being well informed and coming to a logical conclusion is far better IMO.
I agree with you, if things don’t go to shit. As long as things are functioning mostly as normal, having a firearm makes you more likely to die, not less. For example, even when there’s a “good guy with a gun” who kills a violent criminal, how do the cops ID them? They can’t. They’re fairly likely to shoot them. Also, if someone else is attacking people, they’re most likely to target a person with a gun. Cops also tend to be more likely to shoot gun owners during traffic stops and other events (though this is somewhat melanin dependent.
However, if things do go to hell, it will be useful. However, in that case, obtaining a gun won’t be the hardest thing. Either you’re with a group, which has guns and hopefully also with people who know how to use them, or you can obtain one through other means. Making a molotov cocktail or other devices is pretty easy. You can use those means to get a gun, and a gun isn’t going to be enough to fight the military alone anyway. Arsenals will have to be upgraded through other means.
It’s not like its going to help anyway. If you defend yourself from the crazies, ICE, whatever, you are just going to get shot anyway by someone else. They want that excuse. Being armed only really matters if a civil war breaks out. Its a crazy dynamic, which is why guns should be banned in the first place.
Yeah I’m pretty confident the people killed in the holocaust would disagree.
What kind of bat shit crazy analogy is that? …but I’m pretty confident the people killed in the holocaust would rather guns never existed.
Guns aren’t really what killed people in the holocaust. They would rather the fascist and ideology never existed.
Also, you know we dropped in guns to freedom fighters behind Nazi lines. It’s not a crazy analogy, you’re just stupid.
Then your analogy makes even less sense lmao I see you are that type of person, so I wont discuss anymore. Good luck out there.
No, the reason you did not buy a gun was because they would not let you because you do not have a physical address because you were living in a Van parked on the side of the road while you avoid all responsibilities for your debts that you’ve definitely got into on your own.
Better luck next time
My van was down by the river though, it’s good because you can go swimming every morning like John Quincy Adams
That sounds lovely. It also sounds like not a permanent address to get a firearm.
While I wish you the best and I hope that you enjoy swimming in the river and I am admittedly slightly jealous, don’t blame the fact that you don’t have a firearm on “I didn’t want one “
You definitely want one. Who would not want one in this current world?
I don’t want one. It’s an unnecessary expense and statistically less safe to own one. I do think we should know how to safely handle one and use it an emergency, but if we have a civil war or societal collapse I have skills to trade for one and know where I can get one within 15 minutes if it’s a surprise.
Unless you plan to carry concealed or get a concealed carry license skip the pistol for your first gun.
If you want something for home defense that sits by the bed get a 20-gauge pump shotgun. I’ve never met anyone man woman or child that couldn’t shoot one and #3 or #4 buckshot is hard to miss with within 20 or 30 yards. You can go to almost any sporting goods store and pick one up for about $250. I like the Maverick 88.
If you want something to hunt with or just have in case of “troubles” get yourself a decent bolt-action rifle with a 3x9 scope in a popular caliber such as 308 or 270. Rifles are easier to shoot and you can use them for hunting. Once you shoot the rifle a few times and are comfortable with it you can put it away for those “troubles.”
If the US gets ripe enough you need to stack bodies you are going to want a rifle more than a pistol and if you have a shotgun or a rifle you can pick up a pistol, there will be plenty on those bodies you are stacking.
That’s my extremely qualified opinion, but with that said opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.
Good luck out there, be safe.
If you have the money just get an AR 15. There is a reason it’s so popular.
There could be a world ending apocalypse and you’ll still find parts and ammo. And it’s an incredibly well rounded platform that’s pretty easy to use.
you think a 12 gauge is going to be harder to find parts and ammo for?
Ignoring that a shotgun isnt nearly as useful and will rounded, yes, shotguns in general are not as ubiquitous or popular.
In 2021, 21,037,810 total firearms were available for the U.S. market, which includes firearms that were domestically produced plus those imported—minus exported firearms. Of those, 12,799,067 were handguns, 4,832,198 were rifles and 3,406,545 were shotguns.
You’re ignoring usecase, and the fact that even according to your facts, they’re super popular.
I mean that is great but im betting a large majority of shotguns are 12 gauge and use very similar parts and a less percentage of rifles are ar15. Also shotguns are about the simplest gun designs.
Also, the US Military used 5.56 ammo, so if things really go down, you know there’s a supply. Fair note: you can shoot 2.23 ammo with a 5.56 rifle, but you don’t want to put 5.56 in a 2.23.
.223 or 223
2.23 is not a thing 5.56 is the metric measurement of .224 diameter bullets which are used in both 5.56x45mm and .223.
To go deeper, a civilian .223 Remington is almost identical to the military 5.56x45mm. Both use a bullet diameter of .224 and a weight between 40 grains and 77 grains. The differences without getting super technical are in SAAMI pressures. A .223 Remington cartridge produces less pressure than the military 5.56x45mm. You can shoot both out of a rifle marked 5.56x55mm or .223 Wylde but it is not recommended that you shoot 5.56x45mm in a rifle marked .223 Remington.
.223 Remington (SAAMI MAP): 55,000 psi (≈379.2 MPa) maximum average pressure (piezo).
5.56×45 mm NATO (NATO/EPVAT service pressure): ≈ 62,366 psi (≈ 430 MPa) service pressure (piezo).
Since we’re having fun, the other difference between .223 and 5.56 is the throat length, with 5.56 being longer. Wylde not only supports the higher pressure, but also splits the difference in the chamber to account for the difference in throats.
I.e., a .223 Wylde chamber has a longer throat than a .223 Remington chamber, but a shorter one than a 5.56 NATO chamber, which allows it to accurately fire both .223 Remington and 5.56 NATO ammunition.
I’ve been told shooting .223 in a 5.56 will wear out the chamber faster… but haven’t exactly tested that.
5.56 rounds over penetrates less than 9mm and less than many different shot shells too. I like HD 9mm rounds but the AR platform for home defense is a smart choice.
And I’m not saying it’s ideal, but you’ll still take a deer down in some insane scenario where you’re hunting for food.
Ive heard even 9mm higher pressure rounds through a carbine length barrel can stop some bears. Im not saying I’d trust it to be my first choice in that situation but I’d wager if you get good enough with 5.56 there’s not much you wouldn’t be able to stop with a couple follow up shots or hunt with a good first shot.
When I thought about buying a shotgun I looked into rock salt and other non lethal ammo, it turns out it’s illegal to load shells with rock salt. Hard to believe
Because you shouldn’t use a gun unless deadly force is warranted.
What about less than lethal ammunition, like rubber bullets that cops get to use on protesters?
It’s less-lethal, not nonlethal. Even blanks can be deadly. A gun should only be pointed at something you’re willing to destroy.
Cops are not held to as high of standards as everyone else. This should not come as a great revelation.
You can use a shotgun loaded only with rock salt even when deadly force is warranted. You can also not use a gun at all in situations that would allow deadly force. Not everybody wants to kill someone.
That’s not very american of you. You have to be ready to shoot and kill anyone apparently
If you go through a defensive carry class you’d almost certainly be discouraged from doing that by the instructor for multiple reasons:
First is that all ammo can be lethal, even blanks. So if you’re not willing to kill to protect your own life, that may cause it anyway. On the flip side, a prosecutor will argue that if lethal ammunition wasn’t required, then use of a gun wasn’t necessary and you’ve not only broken firearm discharge laws (in place where most people live), but are also guilty of assault with a weapon with intent to kill or maim.
Firing a gun in self-defense is only warranted if nonlethal means are insufficient. If you try using less-lethal ammo and it doesn’t stop your attacker, you’re killed or seriously injured. If you try using less-lethal ammo and it does stop your attacker, you’re still screwed by the legal system (possibly except under some “stand your ground” laws).
I bought my first gun, a shotgun, two month ago for home defense. I also got some of these home defense rounds, it looks like little plates stacked up inside the shell. I guess they aren’t supposed to penatrate drywall, so they are safer to use inside a house to reduce accidental or unintentional injuries.
i dunno, i just call the cops but mabye thats just me.
But what if I’m not feeling suicidal?
i dont know what that has to do with cops
And that’s what makes it clear you’re not American.
Because in numerous cases, the cops have attacked the victims when responding to a call. If you are a minority it’s even more likely. Combine that with a white attacker, even more likely.
oh never seen that before that much, ive seen some cops do some stupid shit, but it doesnt seem like a widespread issue.
Are you familiar with the expression “[the thin blue line](Are you familiar with the expression “the thin blue line” and mindset that it reinforces?)” and the mindset that it reinforces?
Are you familiar with the “warrior” training so many police go through, where they are trained to see threats from everywhere and to prioritize their own lives above others?
Are you aware that, legally, cops aren’t obligated to protect you if you aren’t in their custody?
Did you see the footage from the Uvalde school shooting?
All of these combine together to result in so many instances of police escalating tense situations instead of de-escalating those situations. It results in police shooting innocent people because they thought they saw a gun. Like I said, if you are a minority things tend to be much worse. You’re likely guilty of something in their eyes, even if the cop is a minority.
When seconds count, the cops are minutes away. You do you though and good luck.
So then you get to deal with armed fascist thugs in addition to whatever problem you were trying to solve by calling the cops. And guess what, if a fascist attacks you and you call the cops, you’re likely calling their buddies, who won’t be happy with you. At least, in my experience in the US.
Fun way to tell everyone that you’re white, or not living in America.
actually im southern Italian/Lebanese so my skin is tanned and have been in trouble with the police before. Stop making everything about race.
Oh, so there was a comma in my comment. My assumption was right.
Clearly, you are not in the US.
why, is there no cops in the US?
Big difference between having cops, and having cops that you can trust to protect you.
Also, even if for argument’s sake we assume that the police will act in your best interest when they show up, not everyone lives in a large city where you’re never more than five minutes away from a cop. The US is huge, and the vast majority of it is rural and isolated. If you live in one of those places help from police might be hours away rather than minutes. You’re on your own until they show up. If they show up at all.
Because they almost always make the situation worse.
Cops in the US are a whole different breed of fucked up
You’re very fortunate. I live in a place in the US where it’s a toss up on whether the cops will even show up. I’ve called an ambulance for it to never show up before. Unfortunately we’re on our own and have to take matters into our own hands if we expect to survive. Guns are a plague but there’s not much that can be done at this point. We must protect our families.
Following up on your comment, there’s plenty of places in the US where you don’t call the cops as a non-white person at all; since the cops have gone out and shot the brown person that called them… since you know, the cops commonly assume the brown person is the perpetrator.
As someone with many years experience, I second this and highly recommend shotguns for home defense.
If you’re ready to move up to mobile defense for whatever reasons, and you’re not someone who dedicates time and money to shooting regularly, I recommend a revolver like a .38, they are simple to operate, accurate, reliable in almost any conditions, almost impossible to jam, easy to see if it’s loaded and ready to fire, and generally much easier to manage and maintain than an automatic.
Very few times in all recorded personal defense situations has anyone ever had to reload, and most of these incidents are over after just a couple rounds are fired. (It’s amazing how people with bad intentions tend to forget about their grievances after just one hole, two will usually do the trick no matter where said holes are.)
I also highly recommend anyone who takes any of this remotely seriously to take some self-defense classes, any kind of martial art, don’t get sucked down any kind of pipeline of people screaming about what style is best for what, literally anything that gets you able to use your arms and legs as defense tools. You desperately need that muscle memory so your first line of defense isn’t the deadly weapon, and so you can survive if you lose your weapon for whatever reason, and not get mentally hung up on having a gun always.
I disagree on a shotgun for HD, pistols are more manueverable, easier to go through doorways, and harder to disarm. The only caveat is normal pistol rounds will over penetrate furthet than bird shot, but other types of shot can over penetrate as much as 9mm. 5.56 rounds actually overpentrate less than 9mm and some people use AR pistols, or full sized ARs, for HD because of this. You don’t want bullets flying through walls you can’t see through, and Id highly recommend agaist anything pump action especially for someone who isnt going to practice cycling the weapon.
This! The over penetration is why Shotgun is better especially for more dense areas such as apartments.
For most people a shotgun for HD is the way to go.
For someone that knows a thing or two, I agree with you… pistol or SBR… I just don’t think that’s most people.
Most people who buy shotguns are gonna end up with a pump shotgun and that’s a big downside for anyone whos not practicing cycling the weapon because in terms of stopping power follow up shots outclass bigger bullet every time. A pump action is setting up beginners to fail at following up more than any other common HD weapon. Most semi auto shotguns cost at least double what pumps do and are more expensive than comprable pistols and even solid budget rifles. I stand by my recommendations, if someone really wants a shotgun and they’re new, insist on a semi auto, but that’s the minority.
Liberals, LGBTQ, whoever else was mentioned in this headline should have been training with guns for years at this point. The writing has been on the wall for a while.
I was anti-gun until I was 37. That’s when I realized it doesn’t matter about my political viewpoint regarding guns, the right has been using it as leverage for my entire life.
I’m 42 now. I got my first rifle when I was 38. I got my first shotgun when I was 39. I got my first pistol when I was 40. I go bi-weekly to the range.
The writer of the article should try harder to not confuse “interest” with preparation. This shit is an unwelcome use of my free time, but I’m probably a better shot than 90% of MAGA at this point.
As someone who used to create judgemental use of force firearm training simulators for law enforcement, I can tell you right now you’re likely a better shot than 90% of our police force too.
Yikes, that makes me feel uneasy. Do they not train on a regular basis?
By policy, it’s different per police organization. But overwhelmingly the biggest orgs only force training once a year. And the metrics they use to pass for accuracy and use are lower than most concealed carry courses.
…they do if you can believe it.
I thought they did too, that’s why I’m not so sure that I’m the better shot. I was thinking that I’m maybe on par with someone else that trains regularly.
Just following up from my previous answer: MOST officers only need to pass training on use of firearms once a year. It does vary per department, and some officers use their access to training and ranges to hone their skills. But MOST of them only follow the guidelines, and most guidelines only require recertifying firearm use once a year.
The writing has been on the wall for a while
I saw this coming when the tea party appeared. Moved my wife and daughters out of the US in 2015 for precisely this reason. When I lived there I owned a rifle and a shotgun, not because I thought I’d need to defend myself against criminals or immigrants, but because I thought there was a pretty good chance I’d have to defend myself against right wingers.
Concur, I saw it back then too. I wanted to leave but didn’t have the financial resources to do so at the time. Now that I have the resources, I’m too old for most places. The way I see it now is that I’m pretty much just hanging around so that my parents don’t have to outlive their children. I bought my rifle and shotgun for the same reason you had yours. I’ve been hearing threats from the right AT LEAST since the 1990s. It’s always been threats…
We are lucky. I’m Australian and lived in the US from 2005 to 2015, so it was easy for us to move. I think what really tipped my wife over the edge was going to watch our daughter’s kindergarten class Christmas concert on the day of the Sandy Hook shooting. That was the most surreal experience of my life, just typing it now still chokes me up a bit. It’s fucking sad, because there was a lot that I loved about the states.
Trans person here who’s been attacked by a neo-Nazi - I really, really wish I had my gun at the time. Because, without it I was in a situation where I either had to let him kill me (not a good option) or pull a knife on him and at least try to seem crazy enough that he knew he’d be badly hurt too. Luckily that worked for me. If I’d had my gun, I could have at least drawn on him and told him that he was going to leave me be or die. My chances of survival would likely have been higher had I had my gun on me at the time.
Why, oh, why?
