I think car privacy isn’t talked about amongst any privacy enthusiasts online ever, and it apparently is one of the biggest data collectors out there. For someone like me who values electric cars for there affordability and environmental reasons, but still want physical car buttons and control over my data, how would I go about this?
I don’t really care about car privacy myself.
Where I drive to isn’t really a secret, social events are organized on Discord. And if driving recklessly raises my insurance premiums then that’s deserved. I wouldn’t risk something as expensive as a car with privacy hacks.
“I’ve got nothing to hide”
You should, privacy is a human right which is being stripped away from us.
You’re basically saying I don’t really care about my human rights.
Without privacy, you’re one step closer to an authoritan regime, where mass surveillance helps prevent an uprising of the people against it.
E.g. Russia, where you “accidentally slit your throat while shaving” when you go against Putin.
Then you’re lacking in imagination.
Similar data have outed people’s pregnancies, relationships and locations, which has been used to let people be stalked and even murdered.
Car data can be sold and amalgamated to create a very precise profile of you, available to be purchased by anyone. Anyone with about $100 can purchase access to your daily/weekly schedule, including physical locations, and can easily steal your identity, if not rob or murder you.
Also, foreign propaganda can similarly profile you and hyper target influence campaigns.
To complement the above reply, although you paid a lot for the car, you’re paying even more daily, giving many away to very nasty companies that will turn your investment against you to increase their profit. Your data will be sold and you’re donating money to billionaires.
Is that what you want? Are you happy to have ads on a windows install you already paid, for example?
Because that’s what you’re doing. If you got a massive discount on account of the daily extra profit you’ll give them I would understand. But if not, why be so charitable to people who don’t deserve it?
I bought glasses recently and, like the dork I am, loudly complained about trying to find a pair that didn’t have advertisements in the form of logos on the arms. Since they aren’t discounted as compensation for fluffing their marketing department, and all that.
Clerk said ‘yeah they actually charge more for the stupid name’ and shoppers laughed so people mostly know but comply. The supply chain is perverse, ok. Life is full of struggle so the small ones slide.
Don’t. Despite the beliefs in modern cars saving the environment you’d probably do better to go vegetarian and repair an old gasoline car. Or you know use public transit with prepaid cards.
Some people don’t know it, but public transit is not always an option. Examples:
- you work night shifts
- you live in countryside
- you have a baby
Volkswagen (VW) had a massive scandal that showed how dangerous this is. By leaking driving behaviour, VW leaked hidden military bases, politicians likely visiting prostitutes and more. Lucky for them ethical hackers (CCC) found that and did not use the data.
Lucky for them ethical hackers (CCC) found that and did not use the data.
I think the most effective way to ensure privacy is to find data mined on anti-privacy politicians and release all of it to the public.
I wish I knew how.
Consumer reports recently added a privacy rating to their car ratings. I glanced at it a little last year. I think it rated if you could opt out and the reach of the sharing.
I do have to say that I’m generally disappointed with the discussion on this topic every tine it comes up. The majority of responses go contrast to the question. “Don’t buy a car” or “fix up a junker” are generally not helpful if you’ve already decided that your top priority is to have a newer car. Another thread actually recommended to move to another country where you could walk everywhere. Seriously.
Most often a car purchase is a complex decision making process where you need to weigh multiple, often conflicting priorities where privacy is only one aspect. I get the impression that if people followed the advice of the majority of these comments, they’d be living in a tent off grid, hunting for food to stay alive, but living their privacy dream.
I don’t think you have to “fix up a junker.” You can find older vehicles that are modern enough to incorporate OBD2 (which helps troubleshooting and maintaining) but modern enough not to be connected to surveillance programs; late 90s into early 2000s maybe even 2010s. You can find them that have been basically maintained.
You’ll sacrifice things like warranties and included maintenance plans, but you’ll be hard pressed to find a mechanic that won’t work on it, parts will be plentiful and cheaper because I feel like lots of things were less bespoke to each manufacturer around that time frame. Plus they didn’t have a computer connected to every little thing. And theres junkyards for big parts.If you have your own tools (or a friend with them) there will be a cheap shop manual you can get (like Haynes) and/or a plethora of youtube videos on how to fix and maintain it.
The price of ownership might be higher but the cost of entry will be significantly less. Not that everyone can or is willing to do the above but there is a middle ground that doesn’t involve junkers.
On the technological side of things, you’re pretty much fucked no matter what. Virtually all car companies now have proprietary app integrations, partnerships with Google and Apple, and other anti-privacy features.
Some practical things you can do-
Opt out of as much data collection and sharing as you can. Read the manual and menu dive to disable optional features you don’t need.
If you finance or lease from the dealer, there are likely additional data disclosures and third party sharing that you can opt out of. Read all the paperwork when you sign your purchase or lease documents. In my case I had to literally fill out and mail something in (they don’t want it to be easy to opt-out because they make money from sharing the data with third parties).
With how expensive current cars are I don’t know how they manage to get away with this.
Usually I go by the rule that if it’s free and for profit you are the product, but cars are growing more expensive and yet they still inhibit your privacy.
Gladly, it will be years before I can afford a car that doesn’t respect my privacy.
Insist on one that doesn’t have all that crap in it
There’s always a trade-off in some way, though. For instance, Toyota is one of the best in regards to keeping physical controls. But they’re basically the worst offender in regards to data privacy. “Insist” is fine on paper, but (unless you’re a millionaire who can afford a custom-built car) you’re inevitably going to have to purchase one on the existing market. And the existing market is all about digital controls and privacy violations.
Saying “just don’t get one that has those things” is a little like saying “just don’t get a house that catches on fire” after a wildfire rips through an area. It’s not exactly up to the customer, and the average person could never hope to afford the custom work that those kinds of requirements would entail.
There’s plenty of perfectly fine used vehicles that are old enough to have physical controls, but new enough to still have a reverse camera and Android Auto. Personally I’m not buying any new vehicle with a cellular modem.
Yes, but this is kind of missing the point. We can’t all just buy old cards forever.
Watch a lot of the car renovation shows.
You can have an old car completely renovated for like 30k
That’s cheaper than just about any brand new car.
And you can keep buying old cars. You just are limited in selection.
I know one mechanic who converted an old Chevy S10 into an electric vehicle. It cost also about 30k and that was 13 years ago. He could do it easier, cheaper and better with today’s parts availability.
These are in Canadian prices
After rebuilding it, you drive your new 30k EV out of its refit garage. Pulling out into the road, you immediately get hit by someone using their cell phone, totalling your car.
The insurance company offers you $5k for your vehicle, as they value it as a twenty year old used car on a rebuilt title.
These things are never that simple.
… No that’s not how it works if you don’t want it to.
He said he paid about 120 dollars extra for some specific type of coverage due to the custom nature of the work on his insurance and when it did get into a collision, he got more than it cost him to repair it.
He did that project as a curiosity and used it as a shop vehicle, and it got a lot of use iirc
“Okay all of society: only buy old cards from now on and retrofit them for 30k and find special insurance to cover them!”
It didn’t work.
You’re fucked. Best you can do is ride a bike when possible, and keep driving old cars from the mid-2000s or earlier when necessary.
Well, my mom’s 2014 golf mk7 doesn’t have telematics. Just look at the specs and buy a car based on it.
Lotta early 2010s models are also telemetry free but have newer safety systems and probably less miles on them.
Electric cars are not that great for the environment if you look into it deeply. Purchasing an old car and having things rebuilt like the engine are much more sustainable. You could also swap the engine out for an electric motor.
The largest block to having modern private cars is that laws require cars to have driver monitoring systems and kill switches installed. Cars also have microphones in them for hands free calling, emergency calls, and active noise cancellation.
Connecting your phone to your car is also a huge privacy invasion as now your phone that knows everything about you is tied to an invasive vehicle that takes you everywhere. A data aggregators wet dream.
You would need to remove the sim card at the minimum but it’s impossible to know ahead of time if that will detrimentally affect it’s functions and throw codes.
I have read about work being done on Linux operating systems for cars that I assume would be more open to modification but I don’t think we can expect anything reasonably private anytime soon from that.
Just because your phone is connected to your car. Doesn’t mean the car gets all the info. Apple and Google made the integration.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIryvRwxp9A&t=670
Timestamp 11min10sec
You can purchase used electric cars too.
Thats what I will be doing.
Battery degradation and telemetry/surveillance will still be large issues if you do that.
Just for Leafs and some of the short range compliance cars like Golfs that don’t have active thermal management of the battery. The old SparkEV batteries are following the expected curve mostly: about 10% loss in the 8yr warranty period, followed by relative plateau of slow degradation mitigated somewhat by its overprovisioning. Hyundai and Kia etc. batteries should be fine, for example.
Telemetry is just as much a problem though.
10% over 8yrs to me is a huge loss. Think of a 2004 vehicle. That doesn’t seem too old and certainly lots of those vehicles have modern expected amenities. It would have lost 25% of it’s fuel tank size today if it had a battery instead. Diesel hybrids would be a great solution for outstanding fuel economy that would last for many, many, many years
No no, after initial degradation, the battery health levels off and stays around 90% for a long while, generally.
My ICE vehicles are maintained but don’t have the new car fuel efficiency either. I wouldn’t be surprised to find they have lost 15% since they are pretty old.
Recent research shows that batteries are likely to outlast the body of most EVs, if the battery is not abused.
Also, people overestimate the typical daily range used with the primary or secondary vehicles, but even short range EVs cover the average daily drive for most.
That’ll certainly be very interesting to see how accurate that is over time. Would be a game changer.
Who would though? The marketing idea pushed to the public is that no oil changes means they need no maintenance. They are mechanical devices not magical devices. They require maintenance to stay in good working order like anything. Suspension, brakes (although less often with regeneration systems), tires, wipers, air filters, coolant, batteries 12v not just the rechargeable, transmission fluid (gear box oil on Teslas iirc), etc. This no maintenance myth has turned them into throw away disposable e waste. Not to mention the lack of service for repairing the batteries and computers in the USA leading to insurance totaling the vehicles and them ending up rebuilt in Ukraine.
My biggest worry with used EV is the batteries. Me living in a tropical country that can reach 40°C that has to take a big toll on battery health.
The other thing stopping me buying a new car is my old car still works fine and I don’t want to be in debt again for a car.
There are no electric cars that don’t track you except for the really old NiMH Rangers and Rav4s and whatnot that they leased to fleets in California back in the day. Even the very first mass-market Nissan Leaf had unacceptable telemetry from day 1.
Nissan Leaf had unacceptable telemetry
My 2015 Leaf asks me every month on the car screen whether I want to opt in or out. I believe the old-timers on mynissanleaf.com, who say that when you tell it to opt out, it does. Sure, it would be better if it only asked once.
I also removed the SIM card.
I remember reading maybe a year ago that Nissian pushed an update to those Leaf’s that prevented them from charging during certain hours so you couldn’t get the benefit of cheap electricity rates. Either that or they just took away your ability to set specific charging times to the same affect.
What does this have to do with the computer application software Firefox? Mozilla continues to loose the point of the company with this crap. Are they trying to hide the fact that shoved unneeded AI and yet more unwanted file support into the latest version?
the mozilla foundation is also a non-profit that studies how much privacy certain things have. I’m perfectly fine with this.
They only have money to do that because of their browser, yet they keep laying off people from their browser division.
Just don’t connect it to the internet. The radio and Bluetooth do not need an internet connection to work and you can use your phone for maps and music streaming.
In modern cars you’d need to actually rip the dashboard apart and cut the power to the built-in eSIM cellular antenna. Cars these days use cell towers to phone home, not just Wifi. And oftentimes, disconnecting that cellular connection will also disable major features of the car (like the radio and Bluetooth, which you claim will work just fine) because it’s all integrated on the same circuit board.
In some cases your car will even fucking throw error codes that will cause you to fail a state inspection. Meaning you’re forced to reconnect it before you can pass inspection and update your car registration. And nobody wants to take the time or effort to rip their dashboard apart every year for inspection. Auto manufacturers know this, and it’s exactly why they do it as a deterrent.
Pretty sure many of the cars sold now have a SIM card or something similar which the manufacturer pays for up front. I don’t think it takes much for them to ping periodically with the information they’d like to track and this ensures they get the data.
Still, don’t connect your car to the Internet, as that could give them way more data but I doubt that that doing that alone will completely stop the tracking.
Edit: typo
Buy an older used ICE and have it converted to electric.
So, the options I see here are:
- Buying an older vehicle
- Disconnecting the modem and dealing with the car potentially refusing to work after a period of time or potentially uploading locally saved data when taken for service
- Spending a lot of time and money to convert an old ICE car to an EV and dealing with a janky EV that probably has a limited range under 100 miles
None of these are great options.
what’s wrong with 2015 or older with low mileage?
Nothing; I’m currently driving cars even older than that. It’s just that as time goes on, it’s going to be harder and harder to find.
it’s hard to get a reliable 10 year old car with low milage… harder every year until it will be impossible sooner than later
Toyota, Honda, or Mazda are good bets.
I just bought one today because of that. they’re just getting older the longer I wait, if I don’t need it right now, I might as well buy it so that it’s not getting rustier being driven by someone else
That option becomes a more remote opportunity with each passing year as stock diminishes so trying to find a long-term solution now makes sense.
Yes but if you start building that kind of community they will stop being janky.
It’s honestly a good place to start.
As people learn how to do it, and discover all the landmines of doing it, that will clear the path fire the next generation of modders and custom work. This would create an opportunity for new markets.
I mean just look at where 3d printing is today. It’s great how far that enthusiast culture has grown and developed. No reason it can’t continue.
Sand things like the Slate truck that is intentionally developed for you to modify, could accelerate that exact community.
Honestly if you can get me the funding, I’ll start this community myself
- Remove the modem, sometimes called the TCU.
- Buy a Slate truck. It has no connectivity.
E: if you have the disposable funds or the skills you can do an EV conversion.
Slate trucks loot a little bit too gimicky for me, and I’m not sure if it’s coming to my country either.
Wouldn’t be surprised if it kept all the data internally and then published it to their servers when you go for to a service center or do maintenance.
If they aren’t already will be only a matter of time before they do this
Alternatively, if you can’t remove the modem, find and remove the antenna. And if you can’t remove the antenna try and surround it with a metal, like aluminum foil.
“Bezos-backed”? There has to be a catch somewhere.
Keeping an eye on it since no other company is offering a similar lack of connectivity, but also not going to be surprised if it doesn’t deliver on its promises.
The catch is it’ll be enshittified as soon as it can.
The sad thing is you paid to get a car with a TCU, then paid a mechnic to remove it. Assuming you’re not a mechnic/hobbist yourself.
It’s good that Mozilla is shaming car companies and shining a spotlight on the issue. Journalists need to ask about tracking and privacy when a new car model comes out. Buyer should ask sellers the same.
I find myself often paying more for less these days. The Slate truck isn’t really a great deal either when comparing to something like the new Chevy Equinox EV.
no, I paid to get a car without that telemetry, as it would be part of the condition of sale
people don’t need to just accept what the dealer says. they can tell them to fuck off and go buy somewhere else
I often find “free market baby” doesn’t work with monopolies, or if all companies are doing the same evil thing.
true, effectiveness is not guaranteed
but you can still opt out entirely. bought a 2012 without that bullshit just yesterday
Good starting point would be looking up forum or blog posts from people who have disconnected the modem/TCU on a particular EV model. No self-interested auto manufacturer (all of them) would intentionally provide an option in the user interface to take the telemetry system offline. Take note of any side-effects they report, if it needs to be reconnected for inspections, and if there’s any gotchas between software and hardware revisions.
