How do I free my television?
It should be a thing because most (all?) “smart TVs” run some variety of Linux, which, as Free Software, is supposed to guarantee the device owner’s right to modify the software running on the thing. However, in most (all?) cases, the practical ability to do that has been destroyed by subverting encryption functions against the owner in a process called Tivoization.
In other words:
- No, it isn’t really a thing,
- It’s wrong for it not to be a thing, and
- You should be pissed off about it.
Thanks for teaching me a new concept to be angry about, I guess.
I mean, they did it with phones too. Android is just Linux. That was one of the main attractions, for me at least.
At first, many people and groups supplied their own phone OSes. There was a whole thriving community ecosystem. Then they started to make it really hard, locking bootloaders and including critical pieces of hardware that didn’t or couldn’t have open source drivers (look up WinModems for a very early example of this technique, it remains really effective) or otherwise required extremely convoluted methods to access and the phone might function marginally without some of these fully functional, but at least you could still install a custom ROM on it if you were stubborn enough.
But even that wouldn’t last. Nowadays they’ve made it literally impossible to defeat the security on most phones, in the name of keeping hackers and criminals out, but really a big part of their motivation is blocking these pirate OSes that let you actually control the hardware and software in your phone, doing criminally nefarious things like stopping them from downloading ads (the horror!) and preventing them from funneling all your data and activities back to Big Brother (how rude!) and worst of all updating it with modern functionality after they’ve declared it “obsolete”. The goal going forward is to sell you things that you don’t and can’t control, so they can shut them down or make them gradually more and more useless and make you buy new ones forever. They want you to have a subscription for everything including physical objects without realizing that you’ve been forced to subscribe to their regularly-scheduled-disposable-device-replacement-plan for no actual reason.
They’re coming for computers too, or at least they’ll try. They want control of everything we interact with. For profit, mostly, but I wouldn’t rule out other motives. It’s a powerful thing when you have control of everything people see and do.
STOP IT!! I WAS ABOUT TO HAVE A GOOD DAY TODAY!!
I could be wrong (I haven’t really paid attention lately), but I think the state of Linux on “smart” TVs is considerably more dire than the state of Android phones. At least with the latter, projects like LineageOS and GrapheneOS are a thing, whereas I know of zero third-party community firmware projects for TVs.
Oh absolutely. Smart TVs are completely under the control of the technology and media companies with very little hope for freeing them, except that you can still plug a computer into them to bypass all the “smart” features and just use it as a dumb screen with a smart computer instead. But they always seem to put a few new stumbling blocks in the way of both those options every year. That loophole will eventually get closed, it won’t happen overnight, but they will keep eroding the functionalities and convenience of doing so until few if anyone wants to do that anymore.
Cars are nearly a lost cause too, except where regulations say they must use some standard like OBD2 for “emissions reasons”, although that is obviously a limited scope and manufacturers try to find any ways they can to sabotage it or otherwise avoid it. Appliances and “smart homes”, all the way down to the light bulbs and LEDs, have plenty of proprietary, locked down, unrepairable technology in them too despite reliable open standards being available. The war for total control over our digital devices is in full swing and there’s no area of our lives from large to small that isn’t a battleground. People need to keep prioritizing the freedom of their devices because once they get these technologies and features entrenched it’s going to be very hard to work around them.
Woah woah woah, slow down partner, you’re not done yet.
- you should absolutely make as much headway on this project as you can, then share the results so we can all benefit.
It’s interesting to see some of the back-and-forth on this topic between different proponents of free software.
I listened to this talk by Linus Torvalds a while back and it relates to the GPL license used by the Linux kernel and why the kernel hasn’t changed to GPLv3. Apparently Linus doesn’t find this practice by Tivo and other hardware manufacturers to be an issue.
Yes, it’s a damn shame that Linus is weak on property rights.
Because that’s what this actually is, by the way: violating the device owner’s property rights in order to prioritize the manufacturer’s temporary monopoly privilege over the software – which was only created for the sole and express purpose “to promote the progress of science and the useful arts” in the first place – above them.
Linus is kinda infamous for being a dick.
That really doesn’t contribute anything to the merits of his remarks or not though.
I think he needs to work with HW manufacturers and chip designers/manufacturers to get drivers. They’re always going to have some proprietary HW and FW and communication protocols somewhere in their stuff. I think if he pisses them off too much he has to to bit-bash or reverse engineer all drivers for loads of stuff - which is never going to happen.
Linux would need overwhelming market share in the consumer end to force chip makers to play, whether they like it or not.
Windows might be finally doing a bad enough job again, to drive Linux adoption, but it’s hard to tell if that’s just Lemmy talking.
Linux doesnt “force” chip makers. It tries to collaborate , that’s the point of what Linus has been saying and doing for several years. I don’t know which market you’re talking about though, embedded - which is relevant here, or consumer PC. I don’t even think MS gives a shit about consumer PC, it’s worth next to nothing to anyone - maybe apple does.
Force is the wrong word, I meant more difficult to ignore.
The Free Software Foundation explicitly forbade tivoization in version 3 of the GNU General Public License. However, although version 3 has been adopted by many software projects, the authors of the Linux kernel have notably declined to move from version 2 to version 3.
How come Linux doesn’t use GPL v3?
Linux copyrights are owned by many different people, so it would be prohibitively difficult to ask every person to agree to a GPLv3 change. Even if you could, Linus Torvalds is not a fan of the v3 license.
Even if you could, Linus Torvalds is not a fan of the v3 license.
Why not?
Count me in for #3.
It’s similar to console hacking. If there is no known exploit, the device is not yours. LG patched the exploit that made that possible for my smart TV and know I need to wait for another to be doscovered. Unfortunately the Smart TV hacking community is not that active.
https://github.com/RootMyTV/RootMyTV.github.io
https://xdaforums.com/t/getmein-one-time-rooting-jailbreaking-tool-for-webos-lg-tvs.3887904/
Unfortunately the Smart TV hacking community is not that active.
It is a bit more active than your links seem to indicate, but is not very well organized or easy to find.
Use https://cani.rootmy.tv/ to check recent status of rooting LG TVs models. Many slightly older, 2+ years old TVs are still rootable, due to this exploit from 2024: https://github.com/throwaway96/dejavuln-autoroot
Nice it seems that DejaVuln will work! Thanks :)
In principle, yes, and I believe a few small hobby projects have attempted to do this and support specific TVs. However, interest in developing a custom Smart TV platform tends to get siphoned away into a project where the output from your actual platform is displayed on the TV rather than running directly on it. Simply, it’s easier to develop and maintain support across different models.
Why would you develop a custom TV OS that runs on one TV when you could develop it for any mini PC and immediately support all TVs? You’d have to develop your OS to run on each specific TV model which will make it quite hard to reach a critical mass sufficient to attract attention from developers and users alike.
The juice isn’t really worth the squeeze. It’s not like TV vendors are publishing detailed hardware specs and drivers. Writing or even porting an OS is hard. Look at the state of the Android ROM scene, and that’s about as good as it gets when some vendors are actually attempting to open source their drivers. The difficulty is much higher and the interest lower due to the existence of a viable alternative.
With that said, motivated minds have done it anyway. You just need to have the right TV for it.
It is still possible to buy “dumb” TV’s. Tons of businesses need them for display purposes (like at fast food restaurants and corporate expos, etc, etc), but you need to search for commercial displays. Like this one.
Bless you for providing a link; I can’t tell you howany times I’ve seen this advice without any link or instructions on how to locate these
No problem! I work in television/live streaming production. Finding and buying “dumb” monitors when we build out new sets and presentation spaces is literally part of my job.
Day 1,826 of telling people they can buy a smart TV and just not connect it to the internet
You don’t need to spend $700 on a TV that doesn’t connect to the internet
Wait until you learn tvs can piggy back off other tvs that are connected to the internet.
Citation sorely needed
That’s not a citation silly, that’s a downvote. Don’t get mad at me because there aren’t actually any TVs doing this
I didnt downvote you.
I cant find definitive proof. But it hardly would suprise me with the shady shit samsung does.
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Usually that means trying to get Android TV working through USB, but it depends on what tv you have. If you already have an Android TV, just use a launcher like Projectivy. Most people just buy a media box: either an Android based one or apple tv and disable the “smart” tv altogether
I’d imagine you could probably get into the android developer settings and disable all the telemetry stuff through adb and install a custom launcher like projectivity and that’d be the closest you could get to running a custom tv OS at least if you can’t flash it.
That sounds, uh, fun.
Just use the TV as a display and try to dink around with some open source media player box if you want to create your own custom OS.
It’s better than dealing with whatever terrible nonsense they put on LGs and Samsungs. I was really close to getting an LG because everyone says it’s the best looking but I just couldn’t imagine going back to completely unmodifiable TV OS, so I got the Sony instead which still looks absolutely fantastic and I have my custom launcher on it set exactly how I want it.
Get a dumb TV and plug in a cheap computer where you can pirate everything
I’m not sure they exist, but either way, just plug something in and don’t connect the TV itself to the internet.
Sceptre has some dumb TVs. You can also still get the display TVs that companies use. I’m drunk so I forget what they’re called.
Cathode ray dude recently did a video on them
https://youtu.be/q9a3dCd1SQIOh that’s a point, probably not cheap though, maybe not good for home cinema? Not heard of Sceptre, will check out. I’m happy just not connecting my TV mind you.
Sceptre is cheapo stuff. And at least one brand of smart TV is wardriving to find networks behind your back (again, drunk, I can’t remember which right now) and creating mesh networks with other TVs of the same type.
That is a pretty horrific thing. Policy is so far behind if that is allowed.
I must say, your typing is flawless for a drunk person.
Learned skill. I spend a lot of time drunk and Android tends to do a pretty good job of guessing what I’m swiping.
I also tend to reread what I wrote when I’m drunk. I actually generally do a worse job sober because I won’t double check my work.
And it was signage displays for the dumb TVs I was thinking of, and Sharp TVs used to have unsecured wireless networks that you couldn’t really turn off, so they’d make a mesh with other smart TVs. I believe I’ve heard the same thing about Samsung as well.
Now it’s time to go jog myself sick.
They simply don’t exist anymore. The only choice is to do this with a smart TV and never connect it to the internet.
If the room is small enough room with the seating closet enough to the screen, a large computer monitor could do the job pretty well. You’d have to be fine with doing all input switching and audio control on a receiver or only ever use a single device as the input.
That’s not true. I forget what the term is, but corporate displays are dead simple, no ads or bullshit. Think of something sold to a deli to display menu items. But be prepared: consumer TVs are so cheap partly because of the expected ad revenue, these will be more expensive. I’m about to buy my first TV upgrade in over a decade and I’m just going to never connect it to Wi-Fi. I might even disable the wireless adapter, we’ll see…
If it has an HDMI port, it can be a dumb TV. Just don’t connect it to wifi, easy
Nvidia shields with an alternate home screen have been a good solution for me? TV isn’t connected to the network directly, just to the shield.
I’ve got RetroArch, Plex, Spotify on each of them - that sort of stuff.
bingo. never put the tv on the network, just budget for adding something else. tvs have been known to update after a year and start injecting ads outside return policy LOL. fucking scam’s man. my shield fucks up, it gets flashed. or traded out.
Do people actually use their TV without a console or computer of some sorts connected? That’s absolutely feral behavior. Like boomers avoiding self checkout cause it’s too complicated.
Your smart TV is a computer of some sorts. You can do shit like watching Netflix with it. If that is all you want to do, why should you use another device with it, that brings no benefits but uses more power?
i already said why. there are stories where an update now injects ads into the tv, more than were there when you bought it. so after you can’t return it, well, now it’s “updated” and can’t take the piece of shit back.
using a 3rd party device still leaves you in some sort of control. i use an nvidia shield, which definitely does add better functionality, but if it starts acting stupid, i flash it back to defaults/roll back any updates or i replace it, tv unchanged.
and power usage is negligible at best.
here is one story - https://choice.community/t/samsung-now-injecting-ads-into-your-smart-tv/26124
spying - https://money.cnn.com/2015/02/09/technology/security/samsung-smart-tv-privacy/index.html
phone updates can do the same - https://old.reddit.com/r/ShittyDesign/comments/1fqy9rh/samsung_wants_to_turn_my_charging_screen_into_ads/
bottom line, if you don’t control the device, you have no say in what gets update/installed/“upgraded” to support more ads. on an external device, i know how to wipe it/block updates. on the tv, best i could do is factory reset it, im IT, not TV.
I mean, that sucks but I run pihole on my network and don’t have any injected ads on my Samsung displays, and all base functionality I need works without issue.
I have pihole setup too. I’d still never need to connect my tv. but you’re free to do as you want
Because Xbox and PlayStation exist? Also, the ergonomics of the TV remote vs a controller are night and day different.
Yes, the differences are night and day. Every time I want to watch one of the few movies I own on Blu-ray, I turn my old PS4 on and remember how shitty a controller is for media playback and I download the movie and watch it on my Raspberry Pi with Kodi and a proper media remote.
So again: if I just want to watch Netflix, why should I add a console that has no advantages, but uses more power and forces me to use a controller that is nice for many games but shit for watching movies?
Yes, the differences are night and day. Every time I want to watch one of the few movies I own on Blu-ray, I turn my old PS4 on and remember how shitty a controller is for media playback and I download the movie and watch it on my Raspberry Pi with Kodi and a proper media remote.
- lol no you don’t.
So again: if I just want to watch Netflix, why should I add a console that has no advantages, but uses more power and forces me to use a controller that is nice for many games but shit for watching movies?
-You aren’t raw dogging your TV apps…youre using a console of sorts to run your media vs letting the TV do it. Which was what I was asking in the root comment in this thread.
So what I originally said…and what I’m replying to now are the same sentiment. You’re being a contrarian.
if it’s such a problem, then don’t use anything, let your tv be open to the Internet and browser hacks. that’s your prerogative. but we’re telling why it’s a bad idea, that’s all.
(as a millennial, I avoid self checkout because massive corporations are eliminating jobs without reducing prices and I think that’s bullshit)
You are missing out on some greeeaat discount opportunities.
My parents haven’t even fixed whatever is causing the weird audio delay they have on there’s. Every time I go over there it’s like they’re watching dubbed CNN.
If that even happens to the subtitles while I’m streaming I have to shut everything down and fix it. It’s so distracting.
I just bought a new tv and don’t have a shield or anything yet. Came from a 15 year old insignia dumb tv. New one is a tcl qm751g, it’s pretty great so far. The ui is alright but literally all I’ve used is Netflix. Will probably build a small pc for it in the future so I can play in 4k 120/144. In the meantime I have a crappy laptop I can HDMI to the tv in 1080p and use remote play on steam to stream games from my pc downstairs. I’m still trying to figure out which options here cost the least and get the most. As far as hardware and ad free etc goes. Ps5? Stick with old laptop? Build a new pc? Lug gaming pc upstairs? Idk lol but for now the tv’s built in ui and Netflix is working.
If you want Dolby Vision you’ll need a device like the Shield, Roku, Google Streamer… the codecs are locked to those devices for reasons
HD audio pass through ended up being reason I went with the shield pro. But it’s not “cheap” at ~$200 per unit. I still think that’s cheaper than a dedicated mini PC or something though (was really the only other option I saw for TrueHD).
I *gasp!* run Kodi directly on my smart TV!! ohmygosh
Yeah I use a GoogleTV and don’t let the set itself connect to the internet. I held onto an HTPC as long as I could but it just got too troublesome to coax high quality streams out of it after a while.
Yes, something like that would work. The stock OS would still be on the TV but as long as you don’t connect the TV to WiFi it should be fine.
It’s much easier to run a HTPC on something small like a Raspberry Pi, or an NVIDIA Shield. The hardware on your TV is probably the bare minimum to run its own smart features, and replacing the firmware doesn’t guarantee that the TV isn’t still phoning home with your data.
If you literally replaced the firmware, what else could possibly be phoning home?
The lower level firmware, your pc is probably doing the same
Technically yes, you’d have to find an exploit for your TV that allows for installing your own OS.
It’s not super feasible but it’s technically possible.
Also cars. I want a custom, privacy respecting OS for an EV please
This is a damn good question that I would also love an answer to!
Best is to try to get the dumbest TV you can and plug in an android tv streaming box to it imo
I believe that’s called a monitor. Just buy a bigass monitor or projector.
Like a TV that flunked kindergarten? j/k
A Phony
What I did was bought a “commercial” television that’s intended to either be put in a waiting room and tuned to Fox News all day, OR used as digital signage. It’s not quite an Arby’s menu board because it’s still obviously a television, has a tuner and such, but it has no “smart” TV in it and the backlight isn’t as “won’t survive a run of Breath of the Wild” like the TCL televisions my parents own. Then I slapped a Raspberry Pi 4 on the back with OSMC on it. Meanwhile I did replace my small form factor desktop gaming rig, so I have a Ryzen 3600/GTX1080 rig sitting unplugged under that television waiting for me to build up the gumption to switch over to it.
Not to jump to the defense of the cheapest Chinese manufacturer, but my parents’ TCL TV has survived for like 6 years
And also to be fair I’ve got a Samsung with a mostly failed backlight that I haven’t bothered to get rid of. I could probably sort of partially half ass fix it, but…
Over the years, I’ve tried three different times to fix the backlights on three different TVs. At this point, I understand that a failed backlight is a failed TV
I have another question.
Can we reprogramme the remote buttons that open Netflix, YouTube etc., so that they open other apps like Jellyfin or something?
Those companies paid to have their buttons on the remote. Your TV manufacturer is not going to threaten their sponsorship deal by letting you use those buttons for anything else.
you can! (at least on googles android tv, not sure about amazon’s bastardized version) I use an app called button remaster, available from the play store, to switch my chromecasts youtube button to smart tube and netflix button to stremio
I don’t know how remotes work, physically, but they gotta send some sort of code to the TV. If your TV’s OS can intercept that message it can choose its own response mapped to whatever you want to happen. Something akin to remapping keys in your keyboard.
I would assume, anyway. I could be wrong.
I bet somebody’s done it. There are people in the Linux world who dedicate themselves to getting it to run on anything - a TV, a toaster…
But it would probably be a lot easier to just run Linux on a Raspberry Pi or something and use the TV as a monitor.
