This is why peaceful protest should always be the first choice and violent action should always be the last resort. You aren’t going to get things like this if it’s a bunch of protestors running around gunning down people
Non violent protest is not peaceful.
https://www.grassrootsthinking.com/nonviolence-is-violence-too-somebodys-gotta-die/
Randomly firing into a group of ICE will absolutely backfire on the movement. But Peaceful protests often are not peaceful before change happens. When you go to a protest understand that you are committing to a dangerous act. The more of us there are, the less the danger, but know always that there is no “Peaceful” protest. There will always be violence from the state. The monopoly of violence is how nations keep and maintain power. Act accordingly.
If Martin and the status quo were the only two option, MLK Day wouldn’t be a holiday because he wouldn’t have accomplished shit.
The reason Martin made gains in civil rights, was the alternative was Malcolm and the Panthers using all those guns they kept waving around.
The revisionist history that they opposed each other is based off a Play oy interview MLK did where they swapped his answer for a question about The Nation of Islam to a question about Malcolm X and use of violence.
I’m not sure if my comment somehow implied I thought that but I am aware that they weren’t adversaries. I also understand some people like to use the “just be like MLK” line to keep people in line and what not. I can see how my original comment can be easily perceived poorly though
I agree with you but your comment seems wildly out of place. I doubt you meant it that way. Minnesota folk have been very peacefully protesting amd still getting killed. I have no doubt that’s exactly what you meant to highlight, but it doesn’t read like that at first glance…which explains the downvotes.
Yeah that’s fair. I mean upvotes or downvotes I’m glad people are expressing their opinions. Ultimately I understand we’re all on the same side here which is that fascism is something that can’t be tolerated. And if push comes to shove I’ll do whatever I have to but I’m of course not excited about another generation of people still having to go to bat just to exist of course.
A man was executed in the street yesterday. How many more do they need to murder
We need the [violent, armed, body armored] national guard to show up and show us how to “peacefully” protest. Got it.
You aren’t going to get things like this if it’s a bunch of protestors running around gunning down people
No, I guess we just need a number of us to get violently murdered/executed in public before the violent arm of the state comes and gives us hot chocolate.
They are neither armed nor wearing body armor while doing this.
Oh, so they’re going to be wearing this while “protecting people” from ICE? How has that played out in history? There’s a few songs about it…
Shifting the goalposts.
You are in denial about what the presence of National Guard actually means. NG, police, military, etc all exist to protect capital, property, and the assets/interests of the ruling class. Do not think for one single fucking moment that the national guard is here to protect people protesting in the streets. It has never happened ever in history. Quite the opposite. You can think “sHiFtInG gOaL pOsTs” all you want, but you are delusional. This will only end badly.
Police and State Police here in Chicago were sent to Broadview to “protect protestors”. Know what happened? Just guess. They arrested protestors and assisted ICE operations. They faced and formed a wall against protestors, not ICE. If you think the NG is going to be arresting ICE you are out of your goddamned fucking mind and need to read a history book.
Blocked.
Oh no, you’re saying I won’t have to interact with you any more? How will I survive.
Just for anyone who hasn’t yet randomly insulted and then blocked me:
If you think the NG is going to be arresting ICE you are out of your goddamned fucking mind and need to read a history book.
Do not think for one single fucking moment that the national guard is here to protect people protesting in the streets.
Nowhere did I say that I expected them to be doing that. Dude just worked themselves into a froth over absolutely nothing.
there’s ml!
There’s some delusion on the situation!
Maybe see if this actually accomplishes anything except getting more people killed and dissapeared before you declare victory?
The point of these demonstrations is to get ICE to stop attacking people. Is that goal being achieved here?
This is certainly far from a victory, and I’m not declaring it as such, I’m simply stating that this is a potentially positive outcome that couldn’t be possible with alternative methodology. I’d also point out that arming and protecting oneself is not the same as enacting violence. What the BPs are doing for example is not the same as calling for civil war.
The ONLY way this stops happening is if ICE runs out of people to deploy. That means making their job harder, riskier, less pleasant, and just generally shittier. That means direct action, not dicking around on the side of the road giving them an audience.
Sure, that’s a viable approach. But frankly at that point I’m far less worried about ICE who are generally untrained, and inexperienced, than the military which IS quite competent, and far better equipped.
The difference is that 100% of the people in ICE are comfortable with being the US secret police because that is literally all the agency has ever done. Think that is true of the US Military? Have you taken a look at the demographics of the US military recently?
I haven’t no, all I know is the “some good some bad” from my own anecdotal experience. Please enlighten me though if you have numbers. (I don’t mean that sarcastically I just tend to speak formally like this apparently). I am genuinely curious.
I’ve found that anyone advocating “only one way” to do anything to not put a whole lot of conscious thought into their directives.
There is always an alternative. And often those alternatives can be done in parallel.
Anyone who tells you “you should stop doing what youre doing because only my way works” only has their own interests in mind.
I found myself in a similarly ‘my way is the high way’ conversation the other day. Some people are at a point where talking over nuance is taken as a personal affront. This leads to taking dialogue out of context or refusing to answer questions or any number of things.
Quite the shame as it’s just another example of infighting and tends to become a distraction.
There’s definitely been a surge of it, but I’m not convinced they’re all genuine.
There are certainly a lot of bad actors out there, posing as leftists, and sowing inflammatory rhetoric and discord throughout left-wing spaces by calling for violence and insulting/strawmanning anyone who has the gall to disagree with them…
This “violence is the only way crowd” are certainly not out there in the cold putting their asses on the line. Most of them probably aren’t even in the US.
Imaginary alternatives that you haven’t even bothered to suggest?
I doubt the person you responded to is even in the US. They’re just sowing discord, trying to tear apart the resistance with auth-comm “violence-only” rhetoric and calling anybody who disagrees with them or has a more nuanced take a fascist…
“Dicking around on the side of the road” is the only reason we have high quality video from several angles of ICE/border patrol murdering people.
I don’t know… I’d imagine ICE thugs are likely to temper their behavior at least a little knowing that there are better trained, better armed forces around keeping an eye on things. They’re cowards at heart.
Victory it isn’t… but it’s a minor improvement.
Depends on whose side they are on.
The point of these from my perspective is to watch civil war develop. That would be the best thing to happen from my Canadian perspective,and I’m actively rooting for it.
Anything that fuels that or the overthrow of this administration is all I want to see.
I hope this esculates and you cunts forget we exist
Promoting people just running around and shooting each other is just stupid. Very much promoting terrorism, and has much more ability to escalate into mass amounts of people dying and 0% chance at ending with anything other than this administration holding absolute power of the U.S. longer.
Where did I promote that? Do you have an argument against anything I actually said, or are you only able to disagree with imaginary ridiculous statements?
You responded to this comment that said. “You aren’t going to get things like this if it’s a bunch of protestors running around gunning down people”
You said that they shouldn’t celebrate it like it has worked already.
I responded by saying people running around gunning people down would just be promoting terrorism.
“Imaginary ridiculous statements”.
It’s right in the text.And then you turn around trying to insult me for saying we shouldn’t promote terrorism.
Every response isn’t a how you disagree with someone by the way. Discussions are built off of more than retorts. It may be best to celebrate all acts of protest that are non violent, as they are the only forms of rebellion that won’t lead to the current administrations goal of getting violent responses to justify their actions and escalate further while simultaneously grabbing more and more power and securing more people backing them up.
People shooting at ICE will be on every news station 24 hours a day and used as propaganda over and over and over until their is no sympathy left for any protestors civil rights or lives themselves
The Guard is milling around with the protesters, in arms reach and in the same place tear gas or pepper spray would be deployed. This is a fantastic way to both show solidarity, respect for the rule of law, and protect innocent folks excercising their rights from ICE. I’d say the comfort level goes up with acts like this and makes it even easier for people to convince friends and family to join in the protest. ICE is already scared to show their faces and apparently losing morale, so I say keep the pressure on with things like this before pulling the trigger and jumping straight to Civil War 2: Everything is Awful Here
Well thats nice, I hope they keep it up
Oh please.
Less than two days before ICE & CBP infiltrate by also wearing hi-vis.
The only way this ends is to surround the White House with 100s of armed people. And demand he steps down for violating his oath of office.
Occupy Washington. Setup supply lines with hot food and drinks. Bunker down. This is civil war whether you like it or not. He won’t stop until you stop him with force.
Follow the same ROE as the Black Panthers. Use 2A to enforce your other rights.
We outnumber them by a lot. Keep yelling the same line over loudspeakers non stop. “Your oath is to the Constitution not Trump.”
Be safe in the storm and prepare for your storm. Many of us are there with you from across continents.
Less than two days before ICE & CBP infiltrate by also wearing hi-vis.
That’s a cat and mouse game the good guys can easily win because the good guys are not afraid to show their face, their id, their home address etc. Not saying the bad guys are out of options or that they won’t try to get the upper hand one way or the other though.
If ICE tried to impersonate the NG by wearing a high vis vest and not wearing a mask, I think everyone would appreciate that, ICE or not.
Hundreds of armed people around the White House won’t do shit but give them a good excuse. Thousands of unarmed and (likely) hundreds of armed protesters stormed the Capitol, and how did that go?
The villians! Killing protestors with cholestorol!
/s
They’re just using this as a distraction from ‘deporting’ the victims witnesses.
Honestly, until tRump put a bunch of goons into top military positions, I would have expected this sort of thing from guardsman. They are, after all, your neighbors. People who wanted to join up for their own reasons, but wanted to help locally when their neighbors needed them.
It’s why I had joined out of HS, and was happy to help local communities during Mississippi River flooding. Glad to see this!
Talk about a brutal self-inflicted injury. We were worried about the local cops and military backing MAGA, and the unprofessional and reprehensible behavior of the ICE Apes has driven them to our side.
I’m sure MAGA was counting on ICE to intimidate people away from the polls in swing states in November. Now I think there is a pretty good chance that the local cops and National Guard will be there to ensure the polls are safe. If nothing else, it gives governors the excuse to make sure the polls are strongly secure.
National guard can be commandeered first half plausible excuse his scotus will take, federalized by federals, other states brought in, etc. Even active duty military with cause as scotus sees fit.
What the feds know, they executed two white middle class people under false pretense, slandered them to excuse it, and saw the state not file murder charges, and not do anything in retaliation. Forced off the murder scene by a handful of feds, ceding the 10th amendment to transparent slander. They know their part of the population supports murdering middle class do gooder whites. They are heroes, finally.
There is nothing to celebrate, the precedents are set. Dems will not even defend their own people in their own state with irrefutable video evidence. Nevermind convicting, they refuse to even charge.
I feel and share nearly all of your well deserved contempt for the Democratic party.
But this is a W. National Guard is not with the cops in Minny. Maybe that won’t be the case in Oklahoma or San Francisco, but it is here.
Take the W, thank these Guards for solidarity, keep that blowtorch aimed at the DNC.
At least that’s my opinion.
The national guard works for the Governor, unless the president calls an emergency. There was a way to do that already, but lawmakers, including democrats, around 2009 expanded the ability to seize control of a national guard in a self declared emergency, apparently the thought that a want to be dictator would abuse the power never occurred to them.
So yes, it might help and it’s good the governor is trying to do something… But the lack of charges, and the lack of air support for charges, of holy hell being raised, is license for the feds to continue abusing people with impunity. The precedent is set, under these new rules the feds could shoot the governor in the head and not face charges either. Point being there needs to be state murder charges. It’s preposterous to claim the feds have immunity from state laws, and directly contradicts the constitution.
The feds aren’t investigating criminally, and if they did it would be to give their guys a pass. But they are just investigating the use of force, like if proper procedure was followed, and that just to quiet outrage. As per the NYTimes.
Anyway, it’s a pyhric victory, if one could even call it that. With perpetrators getting off scot free, no consequences after setting the precedent of executing citizens then accusing them of being terrorists to justify it, investigating their friends and protesters in their favor, and of course creating secret lists of terrorists to discriminate against in a thousand ways that we will not know about.
My old PCP was also in the national guard for my state, and he was a good guy, and a PA. I think when it comes to state level national guard, Trump and his MAGAt financers have seriously misread the room, and it will probably end up tying their own noose.
Ol’ Smedley Butler shoulda taught em all about it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler
The one person I knew who was in the national guard, I worked with, and he was the sweetest guy. Liked playing House Flipper on weekends , and was all around upstanding and good natured.
Despite everything, I seriously do believe there are more of “us” than them.
They should wear civilian clothes and then round up the traitors when they show up and try to maim and kill more people. Then quickly take them to a tribunal before the trump party with immediate consequences.
“Government” work, “government” consequences.
They should wear civilian clothes and then round up the traitors when they show up and try to maim and kill more people.
there are laws that control when/where/how uniforms are worn. that also goes to not wearing them as well.
Maybe some of them, but them being highly visible and showing support for the protests is a really nice slap in the administration’s face.
How DARE they help the CITIZENS! We SPECIFICALLY sent them to Help ICE!
-Democratic Leadership!
Supporting citizens’ rights to free expression and peacable assembly is true patriotism.
I mean, if they really want to support these people they need to neutralize the violent troopers who are harassing hurting and killing them. Hot cocoa is a nice gesture, and a lot of important things start with nice gestures, but it can’t end here.
if they really want to support these people they need to neutralize the violent troopers who are harassing hurting and killing them.
They are doing so by being close to the protesters and interacting with them peacefully. Any ICE action would initiate a conflict with the National Guard, which would cause a lot of trouble for them. The National Guard doesn’t have to actually initiate any violence in order to protect the protesters.
The hot cocoa / donuts is not just a gesture, it is an excuse to stand in arm’s reach of the protesters, so that anything like a tear gas grenade would affect them too.
They are treading carefully, while creating positive press stories and preventing ICE from behaving like thugs.
This is great. It is my sincere hope that Janet Mills in Maine takes a clue from Walz’ use of the National Guard in Minnesota, because this is brilliant.
They should follow ICE around to verify warrants
I would fucking love this, however it goes against Posse Comitatus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posse_Comitatus_Act Which will protect Minnesotans from the National Guard even if it’s “Federalized” by Trump.
Also this is not to dilute the impact of them handing out coffee and donuts. That is very helpful for morale and for helping people protesting to feel safe enough to invite friends and family to future protests. Which is exactly what they’ll need to build an effective movement.
What they can do though is make sure that ICE cannot respond to protesters with riot gas and also make sure that ICE cannot kettle and beat protestors. They can setup security around public schools, hospitals, and other public spaces to keep ICE away.
IF they are going to be a bulwark between ICE and the people remains to be seen though. The National Guard has a very complicated history when it comes to civil unrest. https://factually.co/fact-checks/military/national-guard-use-as-law-enforcement-in-us-2e5218 and historically https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
There isn’t a lot that the National Guard can really do in regards to ICE as they are essentially a National Security arm under DHS. https://legalclarity.org/when-was-ice-founded-the-agencys-legislative-history/
All this being said, nobody is coming to save the citizens of Minneapolis. They know this, and it’s why they are so heavily organized currently. If you want to help you can donate to a few groups.
https://www.wfmn.org/funds/immigrant-rapid-response/
https://nlgmn.org/get-involved/
More comprehensive list here https://www.standwithminnesota.com/
Posse Comitatus only applies to the feds. The governor can have the Guard escort ICE and keep them from violating the law.
But Walz also knows what’s really happening here. Trump keeps having military deployments stopped by judges, and with all its funding ICE just isn’t big enough to do this shit large scale, so they’ve put all their efforts into Minnesota trying to get the locals to fight back as a justification to invoke the Insurrection Act.
They’re actively trying to get a few ICE goons killed.
Kinda
However, under 10 U.S.C. § 12406, the President may place a state’s National Guard under federal command if (1) the United States is invaded, (2) there is a rebellion or danger of rebellion against federal authority, or (3) the President is unable to enforce federal law with existing forces. Once federalized under Title 10, National Guard personnel are treated as active-duty military and become subject to the Posse Comitatus Act. Separately, under 32 U.S.C. § 502(f), the President or Secretary of Defense can request that a state governor issue orders for members of that state’s National Guard to perform duties, including law enforcement functions. However, in this case, the National Guard remains under the control of the governor and the governor retains legal authority to refuse the request. Because the Guard remains under state command in Title 32 status, the Posse Comitatus Act does not apply.
Yeah, and administrative warrants aren’t actually warrants and ICE has zero authority to arrest American citizens and its illegal to murder people. Why do the rules only seem to exist when they might help regular people?
You are 100% correct in your outrage. ICE needs to be dissolved. Noem and all other directors need to be jailed. All agents unmasked and tried by city governments they’ve terrorized. All those responsible for aiding and abetting the kidnapping, human trafficking, rape and murders being currently committed by a self admitted gestapo force.
That being said we cannot dilute the moral footing of another institution when we are capable of fighting this ourselves. No one is coming to help us. We keep us safe. If you can donate to any of the above organizations whose mission statement you agree with please do. If you can organize locally please do. Our numbers are our greatest source of power. Solidarity is our greatest weapon.
https://southerncoalition.org/resources/rapid-response-101/
If any one needs further resources let me know.
If I’m not mistaken, isn’t Posse Comitatus what prevented during the first term, the Administration from using military to secure the U.S.-Mexico border? I remember Trump publicly saying he would use the military.
Yep, and it’s frustratingly fragile. Look at what happened in Kent State. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
A judge dismissed all charges, ruling there wasn’t enough evidence to prove criminal intent?
I updated my post. I don’t know what you’re referring to, however I was referring to the Ohio National Guard shooting at Kent State University in 1970.
I’m pleasantly surprised. This may be the first time I have ever seen the Guard supporting the people against racist cops.
First time since Eisenhower?
No, I’m shocked. I can’t believe an elected Democrat chose not to lick a presented boot.
Good job MN National Guard, tentative thumbs up for Tim Walz, eternal unending scorn for the Obamas and Jeffries and Schumer and Fetterman.
Wait, Obama’s in on it too?
I kind of wonder what would happen if the nat guard went full malicous compliance.
Oh sure, show us the judicial warrant that says exactly where we’re going and who we’re picking up. We’ll escort you there with sirens blaring to make sure nobody gets hurt
Doesn’t solve the actual problem but would be funny to see the admin frothing at the mouth while gibbering that they need unmarked cars and plain clothes jack boots.
Something something defend against all enemies, foreign and domestic.
It does not exclude feds from that concise list of enemies.
Everyone should wear identical T* masks and white gloves in protest. Gonna be harder to do their “job” that way…
