Interesting question; I don’t think it’s a shiboleth though because the content matters. I really think folks don’t understand, and I say what I say because I want them to understand (obviously, I’m spilling way too much ink and tearing out way too much of my hair talking about this for it to just be a thing one says to signal having the right opinions or whatever).
You’re saying that report says supporting Israel lost the election for the Democrats. I don’t believe you. The article doesn’t say it, and I don’t have very much faith in Democrat analysts. It seems like you trust them to accurately assess the situation and come to reasonable conclusions. I don’t! They’re out of touch rich white people. You should stop trusting the Democrats’ competence so much.
So I should trust them more with power because they’re less competent and more out of touch than I think? Hahaha
FWIW I don’t expect the report says supporting Israel is the main or only factor, but there’s no way this report is not going to address the issue, if for no other reason than the huuuuge swing in Dearborn.
I hate both sides. I hate the Democrats and the non voters. And the people whose words are making more non voters. I think all those groups are helping Trump and ICE
I mean…i’m only explaining why I will not vote for the Democrats if they don’t change. If they change, this kind of thing isn’t making non-voters, it’s drumming up potential energy. Like…if they changed their tune and said “if you vote for us, the genocide of palestinians will end, and if you don’t it will continue,” can you imagine how many people would turn up to canvas and make calls and all that? Like…if we could spend our weekends working to prevent a genocide in a clear and tangible way, you think we wouldn’t be out pounding doors? That would become the most important thing in my life, to get democrats elected.
I don’t care if independents win or if the democrats start to become slightly less evil. But for fuck’s sake, the democrats victory should be contingent upon them pulling support for Israel. And they should have no problem doing that. Anything short of that is horrifying.
You’d rather cross your arms, watch it all burn down and then smugly* say “well it’s the best we could do.”
All I want is for the democrats to even say they’re going to make incremental progress, to pretend they’re interested in progress at all, and they won’t do that. Maybe if they’re scared enough of continuing to lose, they will. I’m not counting on it.
So what incremental progress are you talking about?
Maybe incremental progress from the 16k people in ICE detention when biden took over from Trump 1 would not look like 40k in ICE detention when he left…idk? Maybe Biden could have made incremental progress by not providing Israel with at least $18 billion more in military aid to support the genocide than trump 1 did?
The smallest increment of progress is ceasing military aid to israel to support its genocide of Palestinians. That would be incremental. From there maybe we could see aid to palestine, idk. Fuck you for voting for genocide and then saying I’m the bad guy. There’s no “oh they killed 20,000 children last year, and this year they only killed 18,000, that’s incremental progress we should be proud of!”
Lol, you’re the one saying “fuck those people who are so smug, not voting for the democrats, even if they support genocide; those people just want to watch the world burn” … Why are you "sir this is a Wendys"ing me??
I’m serious though, what is the incremental positive change you’re talking about here? I want incremental progress. I want a solution to be a part of. I just think it’s delusional to think that the democrats as they are are a solution.
I’m from CT; CT was never going to send delegates to vote for trump. All my vote would do is affirm that one more person is comfortable enough with the democrats ongoing support for the genocide of palestinians to vote for them. I’m never going to regret not voting for funding genocide.
You can engage in strategic voting as you see fit, I’m being strategic too. I’m withholding my vote, and I’m not the only one. The Democrats have gotten a pretty clear signal on this: Dearborn Michigan was a sore loss for them and it was lost because arab and muslim democrats simply didn’t show up to vote for harris due to her continued support for the genocide of palestinians (will they do anything about it, I don’t know. it seems they’re trying to suppress their own post-mortem on this https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/dec/18/democrats-2024-election-autopsy - my guess is they’ll stick to their usual “how can we be as far right as possible while still picking up just enough votes to beat the republicans?”).
And hey, that you’re canadian provides an opportunity to show what I mean. Carney won in a landslide…you’re sure you couldn’t have done more good by staying home or voting NDP or green or whatever and making the liberals bite their nails a little harder? make them think that they actually should be more progressive? Like…the right-winger lost his seat (great, hilarious), and the NDP lost so hard they lost their full status or something, right? Fair enough if you live in a place that it was a close race with the conservatives, but if not, I’m not sure your vote for carney was really all that strategic. Or maybe there’s something there I don’t understand, please feel free to let me know if that’s a terrible example for some reason.
you’re sure you couldn’t have done more good by staying home or voting NDP or green or whatever and making the liberals bite their nails a little harder?
I voted Carney. I’m not the person you’re replying to, but I think standing clearly against the principles of the Conservatives was what was most important. I think that’s the clearest message and an important one to send at the time.
Fair; I don’t have a finger on the pulse in Canada, if there’s a risk that the principles of the conservatives are eclipsing human decency in prevalence, then send your message! I expect you’d send the same message by voting for whoever you want to vote for (assuming you’d prefer to vote NDP or Green or whatever), but again, I’m not trying to shame anybody for voting for democrats. If you’re not a fascist, vote your heart out for whatever reason you like. That’s great. Of course I hope the democrats change, but if they don’t change, the best result of that would be they win by the skin of their teeth and are terrified enough that they may change next time. In the US, Donald trump got fewer votes in 2024 than he did in 2020; he’s way less popular even in absolute terms despite a larger voting population. The democrats are WAY WAY WAY less popular than they were in 2020. And I hope they take something constructive from that. I want them to win.
I just object to being told I’m a bad person for having any standards whatsoever that would stop me from voting for someone (not supporting genocide is a pretty low bar to clear and democrats are lying on the floor to smash their face into it).
But you are bad if you don’t vote for the better candidate because it is helping the worse candidate win and implement their bad policies. that you would prefer a candidate to win given the options, not voting for them is kinda stupid too. I understand that in many states, you feel that it’s a forgone conclusion and your protest vote doesn’t make a difference or something. But if your vote doesn’t matter, then your protest vote doesn’t matter either. You just weaken the vote and the popular vote totals which is dangerous in these times with trump doing everything he can to invalidate voting blocks that will vote against him. And more importantly, pushing the narrative that the better candidate is evil will discourage other voters who do matter a lot. The time for pushing the progressive angle is the primaries. If you can’t move the dial much there then making a fuss during the election will only weaken the chance at ‘better’. If the Dems then get control, then push again.
I wonder if any of you who stayed home and avoided being a part of the solution regret yours.
I really don’t know how to get this through your heads. Trump could march me personally into a gas chamber and I still wouldn’t regret my third party vote. If the reason I die is because I was too unwilling to support genocide, then I will die proudly. I did not adopt my position on this idly, on some lark, with no thought of what it could mean.
If we collectively accepted that genocide was not an acceptable option, there would be no problem, because there’d be now way to avoid the pressure of such a movement. But instead, we have people like you trying to assert that genocide is somehow acceptable and demanding absolute, unconditional support for the democrats, and predictably failing.
What kind of world would we be living in if everyone in history allowed themselves to be limited by what the system (what the people in power) said was possible? We’d be living under a monarchy with chattel slavery.
Fascism for thee, palestinians, but not for me? We should accept conducing genocide abroad as the cost of having less fascism here?
How about the democrats just be minimally acceptable human beings? No? No it’s the voters fault for not voting for the slightly less demonic demons. All the stuff going on domestically is terrible but it’s a drop in the bucket of all the terrible shit the democrats and republicans are both happy to do. You think the handful of protesters murdered by ICE are bad? You think the dozens killed in their detention camps are bad? Well you’re god damn right they are…and you’ll be really pissed when you hear about the tens of thousands ruthlessly slaughtered in Gaza!
I’m sorry, is not supporting a genocide just too much to ask? If you say “yes!” think about what that means. If you say “no!” then what the hell are you talking about, shilling for those ghouls?
Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn’t want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn’t stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or
B. not vote for the democratic party.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
I guess the main disagreement here is that voting for the Democrats is somehow voting for a genocide. Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide? It’s not like they were involved in starting the conflict. Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
I guess you’re right though that I am a privileged European that are not really that impacted by the state of the world yet. Though it would have been nice with continued stability in the western world instead of a breakdown of our cross continental alliance. There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide?
Even someone whose mind had turned to pudding like Biden’s had could tell that what netanyahu was doing was and is genocide. The Leahy law is crystal clear on the subject. Biden broke the law to sell weapons for an ongoing genocide.
Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
They are responsible for their own actions. Playing arms dealer for a genocide is reprehensible and they never should have done it.
There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
There’s nothing unsettling to you about genocide? Or is that just because under Biden, the genocide was limited to people who you prefer genocided?
If the democrats say “I will continue active military support for this genocide,” what is there disagreement about when I say “voting for the democrats is voting for a genocide”?
The genocide of Palestinians is being conducted with weapons given to them by the U.S., democrat and republican alike (in all likelihood significantly more given to them by democrats, if only because they had more time). It’s not that “Biden could have done more,” it’s that he could have not given them bombs to blow up Palestinians! He could have done less to enable genocide…ideally nothing? The democrats were and are unequivocal that the supply of arms to israel was and is a priority. They’re responsible because they directly enable israel. I’m not responsible for what the democrats and republicans do because I don’t do anything to support them.
And look, I’m not judging folks who vote for the democrats, we’re all scared, fascism is fucked, maybe they can accept this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. I’m scared too…I also hate donald trump. I also hate ICE. I also think things were better for me and people I love under democrats (if it was better for “illegal” immigrants or palestinians, it’s a matter of degree and not kind - obama and biden also used ice to unjustifiably put human beings in concentration camps - in terms of ice detention biden was much worse than Trump 1). I don’t care if democratic voters acknowledge, admit, or accept that they vote for continued genocide of palestinians. They’re welcome to say “I think this is the best choice I can make, even though there’s lots I don’t like about it.” None of my business; please feel free to feel good about that. We could do with more feeling good in the world.
What I object to is their making these posts online saying I’m a bad person for not showing up to vote for the democrats; for not showing up to vote for continued genocide of Palestinians. Saying that I’m supporting fascism, that I’m the problem. Don’t put that on me. The democrats could change at any time; it’s their choice to make a vote for them a vote for genocide.
If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
Uhh…sorry, what? I don’t want the republicans to win, I want the democrats to change (and then win). They can just do that. That’s on them. I think I’ve been pretty goddamn clear about that.
The democrats are moral agents. We’re not choosing between an earthquake and a wildfire here. You’re acting as though there’s no way the democrats could ever do anything but fund a genocide. As if there’s simply no other thing they could possibly do.
It’s not that they’re not perfect, it’s because they’re fucking evil and actively support a genocide.
“Not perfect” jesus christ.
I’m not killing anybody, and I’m not going to kill people indirectly by voting for a party that’s perfectly happy to go conduct a genocide. I’m not making myself complicit in that, thanks. If you would have been happy voting for continuing US support for genocide in palestine because you thought it’d be a little better for us back home, that’s your business. But don’t tell me I’m causing death by refusing to support genocide in palestine. The democrats could stop.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
I mean…my guy…it’s 1% as bad here as it is in Gaza. It would not be just fine. Just fine for you maybe.
They have to change. And It’s not some massive crazy line in the sand to not vote for people who actively support genocide. That’s like…the lowest possible bar to clear.
Democrats can’t win without ceasing to support the genocide of Palestinians.
Centrists will interpret this as wanting republicans to win instead of wanting democrats to change.
Because they don’t want democrats to change.
https://youtu.be/DjNPGX5HV5Y
Interesting question; I don’t think it’s a shiboleth though because the content matters. I really think folks don’t understand, and I say what I say because I want them to understand (obviously, I’m spilling way too much ink and tearing out way too much of my hair talking about this for it to just be a thing one says to signal having the right opinions or whatever).
But the Democrats aren’t on Lemmy, so saying it on Lemmy isn’t helping them understand
I want you to understand! Folks who say “it’s the voters fault that the democrats lose, vote blue no matter who”
I want people like you to understand why, because y’all say dumb shit like “you want trump to win” and I want you to stop.
The democrats know. I don’t gotta tell them. They just suppressed that report, and I am sure this issue would be well covered. https://apnews.com/article/democrats-2024-election-review-biden-harris-martin-a84dfae267090ad83cd8f70b731f439d
You’re saying that report says supporting Israel lost the election for the Democrats. I don’t believe you. The article doesn’t say it, and I don’t have very much faith in Democrat analysts. It seems like you trust them to accurately assess the situation and come to reasonable conclusions. I don’t! They’re out of touch rich white people. You should stop trusting the Democrats’ competence so much.
So I should trust them more with power because they’re less competent and more out of touch than I think? Hahaha
FWIW I don’t expect the report says supporting Israel is the main or only factor, but there’s no way this report is not going to address the issue, if for no other reason than the huuuuge swing in Dearborn.
I hate both sides. I hate the Democrats and the non voters. And the people whose words are making more non voters. I think all those groups are helping Trump and ICE
I mean…i’m only explaining why I will not vote for the Democrats if they don’t change. If they change, this kind of thing isn’t making non-voters, it’s drumming up potential energy. Like…if they changed their tune and said “if you vote for us, the genocide of palestinians will end, and if you don’t it will continue,” can you imagine how many people would turn up to canvas and make calls and all that? Like…if we could spend our weekends working to prevent a genocide in a clear and tangible way, you think we wouldn’t be out pounding doors? That would become the most important thing in my life, to get democrats elected.
Independents can’t win without a base.
seems the democrats can’t win with a base. guess they are going to have to change their position…
Beep beep beep inconvenient fact detected beep beep beep
I don’t care if independents win or if the democrats start to become slightly less evil. But for fuck’s sake, the democrats victory should be contingent upon them pulling support for Israel. And they should have no problem doing that. Anything short of that is horrifying.
I don’t care how the Democrats win, I just want Trump to lose. I’m scared.
I get that. I think we all are.
There we go. We now return you to your previously selected fascism, already in progress.
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You stand for absolutely nothing, you deserve Trump and worse
You’d rather cross your arms, watch it all burn down and then smugly* say “well it’s the best we could do.”
All I want is for the democrats to even say they’re going to make incremental progress, to pretend they’re interested in progress at all, and they won’t do that. Maybe if they’re scared enough of continuing to lose, they will. I’m not counting on it.
So what incremental progress are you talking about?
Maybe incremental progress from the 16k people in ICE detention when biden took over from Trump 1 would not look like 40k in ICE detention when he left…idk? Maybe Biden could have made incremental progress by not providing Israel with at least $18 billion more in military aid to support the genocide than trump 1 did?
The smallest increment of progress is ceasing military aid to israel to support its genocide of Palestinians. That would be incremental. From there maybe we could see aid to palestine, idk. Fuck you for voting for genocide and then saying I’m the bad guy. There’s no “oh they killed 20,000 children last year, and this year they only killed 18,000, that’s incremental progress we should be proud of!”
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I live in a deep red state and voted third party. I don’t regret it one bit and will do so again next time.
Lol, you’re the one saying “fuck those people who are so smug, not voting for the democrats, even if they support genocide; those people just want to watch the world burn” … Why are you "sir this is a Wendys"ing me??
I’m serious though, what is the incremental positive change you’re talking about here? I want incremental progress. I want a solution to be a part of. I just think it’s delusional to think that the democrats as they are are a solution.
I’m from CT; CT was never going to send delegates to vote for trump. All my vote would do is affirm that one more person is comfortable enough with the democrats ongoing support for the genocide of palestinians to vote for them. I’m never going to regret not voting for funding genocide.
You can engage in strategic voting as you see fit, I’m being strategic too. I’m withholding my vote, and I’m not the only one. The Democrats have gotten a pretty clear signal on this: Dearborn Michigan was a sore loss for them and it was lost because arab and muslim democrats simply didn’t show up to vote for harris due to her continued support for the genocide of palestinians (will they do anything about it, I don’t know. it seems they’re trying to suppress their own post-mortem on this https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/dec/18/democrats-2024-election-autopsy - my guess is they’ll stick to their usual “how can we be as far right as possible while still picking up just enough votes to beat the republicans?”).
And hey, that you’re canadian provides an opportunity to show what I mean. Carney won in a landslide…you’re sure you couldn’t have done more good by staying home or voting NDP or green or whatever and making the liberals bite their nails a little harder? make them think that they actually should be more progressive? Like…the right-winger lost his seat (great, hilarious), and the NDP lost so hard they lost their full status or something, right? Fair enough if you live in a place that it was a close race with the conservatives, but if not, I’m not sure your vote for carney was really all that strategic. Or maybe there’s something there I don’t understand, please feel free to let me know if that’s a terrible example for some reason.
I voted Carney. I’m not the person you’re replying to, but I think standing clearly against the principles of the Conservatives was what was most important. I think that’s the clearest message and an important one to send at the time.
Fair; I don’t have a finger on the pulse in Canada, if there’s a risk that the principles of the conservatives are eclipsing human decency in prevalence, then send your message! I expect you’d send the same message by voting for whoever you want to vote for (assuming you’d prefer to vote NDP or Green or whatever), but again, I’m not trying to shame anybody for voting for democrats. If you’re not a fascist, vote your heart out for whatever reason you like. That’s great. Of course I hope the democrats change, but if they don’t change, the best result of that would be they win by the skin of their teeth and are terrified enough that they may change next time. In the US, Donald trump got fewer votes in 2024 than he did in 2020; he’s way less popular even in absolute terms despite a larger voting population. The democrats are WAY WAY WAY less popular than they were in 2020. And I hope they take something constructive from that. I want them to win.
I just object to being told I’m a bad person for having any standards whatsoever that would stop me from voting for someone (not supporting genocide is a pretty low bar to clear and democrats are lying on the floor to smash their face into it).
But you are bad if you don’t vote for the better candidate because it is helping the worse candidate win and implement their bad policies. that you would prefer a candidate to win given the options, not voting for them is kinda stupid too. I understand that in many states, you feel that it’s a forgone conclusion and your protest vote doesn’t make a difference or something. But if your vote doesn’t matter, then your protest vote doesn’t matter either. You just weaken the vote and the popular vote totals which is dangerous in these times with trump doing everything he can to invalidate voting blocks that will vote against him. And more importantly, pushing the narrative that the better candidate is evil will discourage other voters who do matter a lot. The time for pushing the progressive angle is the primaries. If you can’t move the dial much there then making a fuss during the election will only weaken the chance at ‘better’. If the Dems then get control, then push again.
I really don’t know how to get this through your heads. Trump could march me personally into a gas chamber and I still wouldn’t regret my third party vote. If the reason I die is because I was too unwilling to support genocide, then I will die proudly. I did not adopt my position on this idly, on some lark, with no thought of what it could mean.
If we collectively accepted that genocide was not an acceptable option, there would be no problem, because there’d be now way to avoid the pressure of such a movement. But instead, we have people like you trying to assert that genocide is somehow acceptable and demanding absolute, unconditional support for the democrats, and predictably failing.
What kind of world would we be living in if everyone in history allowed themselves to be limited by what the system (what the people in power) said was possible? We’d be living under a monarchy with chattel slavery.
the Democrats have been incrementally progressing the Palestinian genocide, which is what they are objecting to.
If only it was as incremental as their progress on the policies they actually ran on.
Amen. Hell, I wouldn’t even say it’s incremental. Biden provided at least 18 billion more than trump 1.
Fascism for thee, palestinians, but not for me? We should accept conducing genocide abroad as the cost of having less fascism here?
How about the democrats just be minimally acceptable human beings? No? No it’s the voters fault for not voting for the slightly less demonic demons. All the stuff going on domestically is terrible but it’s a drop in the bucket of all the terrible shit the democrats and republicans are both happy to do. You think the handful of protesters murdered by ICE are bad? You think the dozens killed in their detention camps are bad? Well you’re god damn right they are…and you’ll be really pissed when you hear about the tens of thousands ruthlessly slaughtered in Gaza!
I’m sorry, is not supporting a genocide just too much to ask? If you say “yes!” think about what that means. If you say “no!” then what the hell are you talking about, shilling for those ghouls?
Let’s look at it this way. There are two choices. (We can talk about why that’s bad some other time.)
Presuming you are a US voter, you will be supporting one of those choices. (Not choosing, or “intentional grounding”is support for one of the choices.)
Okay? We on the same page so far?
You can stop pretending that you think it’s bad.
I think the two party system is bad, but I don’t want my family to die. Lemmy users said those two opinions are opposites
I think genocide is bad. People who love genocide more than anything will NEVER admit unprompted that democrats have no business supporting it.
No matter what it means for their families. Maybe if centrists has quelled their bloodlust for a few months, we wouldn’t be here.
I’m scared and angry, so I want to blame as many people as I can. I blame the Democrats for supporting Israel, I blame the non voters for not voting, and I blame the people who were bad-mouthing Biden and Harris in 2024 for making more non voters. I’m blaming everyone! You’re all too busy arguing with each other to stop the literal pedophile Nazi from taking over the country. I don’t care how bad it was in 2024, this is worse! They’re taking people off the streets, they’re cancelling trans people’s licences, they’re bombing Iran! This is worse! THIS IS WORSE!
This is the package deal centrists forced on everyone else because they didn’t want to say no to netanyahu, consequences be damned.
This was what progressives warned you would happen if you didn’t stop your support for genocide. The ones of us who voted for harris correctly told you that not everyone would vote for the genocide you wanted.
None of you listened. Not fucking one. You all just screeched abuse louder.
You fucked up and got too much of the only thing you wanted.
I disagree quite fundamentally that not voting for the democrats is the same choice as voting for republicans…but it sounds like you’re going somewhere, so sure, we can talk about it!
If you frame it this way, you have two choices:
A. vote for the democratic party; or B. not vote for the democratic party.
Same page so far.
Not voting at all means a MAGA vote has more influence than your non-vote.
Well I hope the democrats do something about that.
Maybe our non-votes will lead to a non-genocide option, and if so, great. That would be pretty awesome influence from those non-votes. If not, if the democrats simply must support genocide even if it means losing over and over and over again, at least I didn’t endorse it. That’s their choice, not mine.
What the fuck does “maga influence” matter in the face of genocide?
They tend to be the ones actively cheering for it (at least for anyone who isn’t as white as they like).
among the ones actively cheering for it, alongside every last centrist democrat.
I don’t care about cheering, I care about bombs that blow the bodies of children into little pieces.
Whatever you need to tell yourself to feel morally superior I guess.
At the end of the day the question is, if the people who didn’t vote Democrat due to Palestine would have voted, would that have been enough for the Republicans to loose? If so, you are kind of responsible for the ICE raids.
Of course the follow up question: If you care so much about Palestine, why are you choosing to not vote against the party that is very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu? Did you really believe Trumps claims about being the president of peace?
They are morally superior, you’re perfectly fine with the deaths of countless Palestinians as long as it means you and yours stay comfortable
Centrists were fine with either outcome as long as no one had the option of an anti-genocide candidate.
Morally superior? Dude, I’m not the one poo-poo-ing everyone else’s voting record. It’s not what I do to feel morally superior, it’s what I do to feel moral at all. I will not support or endorse genocide. That means I will not support or endorse the democrats unless they stop support for Israel’s genocide.
I absolutely reject this idea that I’m responsible for what the republicans do. They’re fascists, and they can get fucked. So are the democrats on most issues. That’s in them. And if you take some extreme view of morality whereby you’re morally responsible for the actions of other moral agents (unless you deny that the politicians are human beings with their own agency), then fine, I am responsible by that metric and I think it’s a rounding error. It’s upsetting to you, a comfortable western (maybe white) liberal because they’ve started killing a handful of people in the street here…but they’re killing tens of thousands there so…what’s it matter? If I vote for democrats (unchanged) I’m responsible for 75,000 deaths, if do not I’m responsible for 75,003?
Anyway, that’s all bullshit. I’m not responsible for these people.
Btw your description of the republicans (very openly on Israel side in this conflict and absolutely will not do anything to pressure Netanyahu) seems to apply to the democrats too. I don’t deny the republicans are worse though, so I’ll answer the question I think you’re asking. The reason I’m “choosing not to vote against” the slightly more bad party is that it involves voting for a genocide. That’s why. That’s it. I think I’ve been clear about that. I don’t think it’s complicated or hard to understand.
Maybe the pressure and desire to win will make the democrats change…I hope so…but in either case, if the genocide is carried on it will be without my endorsement, thanks.
I guess the main disagreement here is that voting for the Democrats is somehow voting for a genocide. Why do you think that they are openly supporting a genocide? It’s not like they were involved in starting the conflict. Maybe Biden could have done more in his time in office, but if you are not responsible for the issues Republicans cause, why are the Democrats responsible for Israel’s acs?
I guess you’re right though that I am a privileged European that are not really that impacted by the state of the world yet. Though it would have been nice with continued stability in the western world instead of a breakdown of our cross continental alliance. There is also something deeply unsettling about having a probably senile vindictive old man being at the head of the worlds largest military.
Even someone whose mind had turned to pudding like Biden’s had could tell that what netanyahu was doing was and is genocide. The Leahy law is crystal clear on the subject. Biden broke the law to sell weapons for an ongoing genocide.
They are responsible for their own actions. Playing arms dealer for a genocide is reprehensible and they never should have done it.
There’s nothing unsettling to you about genocide? Or is that just because under Biden, the genocide was limited to people who you prefer genocided?
If the democrats say “I will continue active military support for this genocide,” what is there disagreement about when I say “voting for the democrats is voting for a genocide”?
The genocide of Palestinians is being conducted with weapons given to them by the U.S., democrat and republican alike (in all likelihood significantly more given to them by democrats, if only because they had more time). It’s not that “Biden could have done more,” it’s that he could have not given them bombs to blow up Palestinians! He could have done less to enable genocide…ideally nothing? The democrats were and are unequivocal that the supply of arms to israel was and is a priority. They’re responsible because they directly enable israel. I’m not responsible for what the democrats and republicans do because I don’t do anything to support them.
And look, I’m not judging folks who vote for the democrats, we’re all scared, fascism is fucked, maybe they can accept this “lesser of two evils” bullshit. I’m scared too…I also hate donald trump. I also hate ICE. I also think things were better for me and people I love under democrats (if it was better for “illegal” immigrants or palestinians, it’s a matter of degree and not kind - obama and biden also used ice to unjustifiably put human beings in concentration camps - in terms of ice detention biden was much worse than Trump 1). I don’t care if democratic voters acknowledge, admit, or accept that they vote for continued genocide of palestinians. They’re welcome to say “I think this is the best choice I can make, even though there’s lots I don’t like about it.” None of my business; please feel free to feel good about that. We could do with more feeling good in the world.
What I object to is their making these posts online saying I’m a bad person for not showing up to vote for the democrats; for not showing up to vote for continued genocide of Palestinians. Saying that I’m supporting fascism, that I’m the problem. Don’t put that on me. The democrats could change at any time; it’s their choice to make a vote for them a vote for genocide.
Which third party are you advocating?
I think maybe the question is what you think the Democrats have done to make you think they would make the situation worse for Palestine?
Like, my point is that the situation would at worst be the same with the Democrats in charge, but at least you wouldn’t have concentration caps at home.
You described both democrats and republicans and then moved the goalposts to hypotheticals about which genocidal party is worse.
the cages were built by Obama. biden used them. don’t delude yourself.
Maybe you should go back to grade school math.
This is not a math question in which democrats winning is good and democrats losing is bad. And frankly, even if it were that straightforward, it still wouldn’t be the same as voting for a republican, because voting republican is twice as bad on net…so maybe you need to think about your back-of-the-napkin math?
The whole point is that we do not want the Democrats, as they are, to win. We want them to change. We want someone other than genocidiers to run the country. And if they won’t change to stop supporting a genocide AND they won’t change to win, that’s their choice, not mine.
The democrats winning, as they are, would be infinitely worse than the democrats changing.
So on principle you want republicans to win and cause more deaths in Gaza, because democrats aren’t perfect. That’s fine, but don’t say you’re against genicide and then vote for more genocide. Take responsibility for all the deaths you cause.
Uhh…sorry, what? I don’t want the republicans to win, I want the democrats to change (and then win). They can just do that. That’s on them. I think I’ve been pretty goddamn clear about that.
The democrats are moral agents. We’re not choosing between an earthquake and a wildfire here. You’re acting as though there’s no way the democrats could ever do anything but fund a genocide. As if there’s simply no other thing they could possibly do.
It’s not that they’re not perfect, it’s because they’re fucking evil and actively support a genocide.
“Not perfect” jesus christ.
I’m not killing anybody, and I’m not going to kill people indirectly by voting for a party that’s perfectly happy to go conduct a genocide. I’m not making myself complicit in that, thanks. If you would have been happy voting for continuing US support for genocide in palestine because you thought it’d be a little better for us back home, that’s your business. But don’t tell me I’m causing death by refusing to support genocide in palestine. The democrats could stop.
Not sure if you’ve been watching the news since the election but Dems winning as they are would be just fine. Changing for the better is of course good, but throwing the country to the wolves was a really dumb idea. As most of us have seen more than ample evidence of.
As far as people who always want to talk about genocide later (once it’s complete) are concerned.
I mean…my guy…it’s 1% as bad here as it is in Gaza. It would not be just fine. Just fine for you maybe.
They have to change. And It’s not some massive crazy line in the sand to not vote for people who actively support genocide. That’s like…the lowest possible bar to clear.
So you want trump to win? /s
You say that but op has said that seriously before