With all the dismal news about America lately, my home, I’m starting to seriously look at where else to move.
Putting aside for now the difficulty of actually immigrating to some countries, I’m curious on the opinions of others (especially people living outside the U.S) on this.
What I’m looking for in a country is, I imagine, similar to many people. I’m trying to find somewhere that will exhibit:
- Low racism
- Low sexism
- Low LGBTQ-phobia
- Strong laws around food quality and safety
- Strong laws about environmental protection
- Strong laws against unethical corporate practices (monopoly, corruption, lobbying, etc)
- Strong laws for privacy
- Good treatment of mentally ill, homeless, and impoverished people
Those are the real important things. Of course the nice-to-haves are almost too obvious to be worth listing, low cost of living, strong art and cultural scene, nice environment, and so on.
My actual constraints that might really matter are that I only speak English (and maybe like A1-2 level German). It seems incredibly intimidating to try to find employment somewhere when I can hardly speak the language.
I know nowhere on Earth is perfect, just curious what people may have to suggest. I hope this question isn’t too selfish to ask here.
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I suggest developing a plan that is not just about building a better lifenfor yourself, but for others and community. For example, China ticks all of your boxes (yes, even privacy in comparison to the US), but it is also important to consider how you would personally make China better in the process, as you are, by moving, saying that your current conditions are pushing you to want to leave. So what about your current place of living was driven to that and how can this be made the case the world over?
Ultimately, capitalism is the underlying force of reaction, conservatism, and deprivation. It sets the guard rails of social policy, funds and purges the thought-moving forces of society. It creates homelessness. It destroys countries and societies, forcing them to adopy defensive and antagonistic positions to be viable and not only dominated. So I would recommend also thinking of this question in terms of how you might build your life as well as do well in fighting capitalism. As, ultimately, if this force is not recognized, you might find a place that ticka your boxes but is ultimately a forcr for capitalist expansion, e.g. most OECD countries. This wouldn’t make you a bad person but it is a major wrinkle in the idea of building a good life by finding a place based on these (all very reasonable) boxes to tick off.
China is very much not low racism. You will encounter quite a lot of racism especially if you are black. Everyone is different but the racists are far more public about being racist.
China is low racism, particularly compared to other options. The racism experienced by black people in China is more that of unfamiliarity than bigotry. It does not come from the same place as white supremacy and does not have the same meaning or function.
Yeah because Han superiority complex doesn’t exist right?
That’s correct, it is effectively nonexistent. You’re projecting the pattern of white supremacy onto a culture you know nothing about.
One of my closest friends has been living in China for several years now. He’s white, and his wife’s Chinese parents said to his face, “at least you aren’t black”. People there casually refer to black people by the slur. I know there’s many racists in the west too, but in Australia I can make progress as a minority, in China it’s institutional, and in your face. Hard to feel part of the community if you are from a race that is discriminated.
That said, I was told it’s less due to straight up hate and more from ignorance.
Cool you have a friend and used it to broad brush 1.4 billion people.
Anglo settler ass logic.
Well other than growing around a large community of Han Chinese immigrants who all have different views on it sure. They are all generally aware of the racism issues in China particularly against black people. I’m assuming you have a much broader experience in China yourself and have seen otherwise outside of forums? If so I’d be more than happy to be wrong. But if first hand accounts from people who love China tell me that the country has a major issue with rampant racism, and have even told me that I wouldn’t be a good fit for the country due to not being light skinned, I’m obviously taking that to heart.
It’s possible to be critical of a country’s issues without implying that I’m accusing the entire population of being racist 🤷♂️
The way you speak of these things is so vague and unqualified that you yourself are basically dancing around the fringes of racism. Do you not know what racist logic looks like, e.g. denigrating entire ethnic groups or nationalities based on rumors, anecdotes from “a friend”, and half-remembered guesswork?
As I have consistently stated, racism exists in China but it is a low racism country overall. As you have admitted, the racism you will tend to encounter in China is naivete and not something deeper and malicious, which is what Anglos project from the white supremacy they are familiar with and help maintain in the countries they live in. You are in Australia. Australia is an Anglo settler colonial project premised on the genocide of indigenous Australians. You say you prefer to live there rather than experience rumored racism in China from a vague host of Han people (Han Chinese can refer to people from many countries, regions, ages, etc). Presumably you don’t really care about indigenous Australians and are somewhat naive about what most white Australians think of you, and you are trying to get by as “one of the good ones”, i.e. the subtly white supremacist liberal approach to race and ethnic background. If not, I’d be curious about your perception of how you are treated when adopting beauty standards drawn from your ethnic background(s) and when you politically challenge the violent liberal status quo. When the cops come to break up your direct action on Palestine (do you do anything remotely challenging white supremacy?), who stands with you?
But contrary to what you’re thinking, you can get by just fine in China and advance. But you might not be in a society propped up by imperialism and genocide and therefore need to work longer hours on top of learning a new culture.
Re: my familiarity with China, I am completely confident in what I’m saying and don’t need to tell internet stories about friends or rumors I heard to pretend at knowledge to broad brush countries and ethnic groups. If you don’t believe me, just go yourself. It is very inexpensive for Australians and you can spend a week or two in advance finding people who actually integrated locally and traveled to show you the ropes.
Im a migrant to Australia. It’s true Australia has loads of issues involving racism. That said I DO have the right to protest, and vote towards a better future. And I can, and do, get involved with my community to do what I can regarding those topics. Importantly though I can live in the country and not face racism daily nor often get treated differently because of the way I look.
Regardless I’m obviously going to take the word of the actual Chinese migrants I know of, and the people I know living in China, over strangers on the internet. You’re allowed to have your own opinions on it, I just don’t think it’s a great idea to hand wave the racism issues in China, particularly for people who are black or brown.
If you are white you get stares and reverse racism until you mess up then real racism. If you’re black you just get racism.
That it, generally speaking, false.
Well you obviously haven’t been to or lived in China for any period of time and most likely have an idealistic view of the country. Chinas a great place but being ignorant to its rampant racism is just silly. Because you’re certainly wrong. Waste of time comment.
Well you obviously haven’t been to or lived in China for any period of time and most likely have an idealistic view of the countr
Please do yourself a favor and depend a bit less on making things up about other people.
Chinas a great place but being ignorant to its rampant racism is just silly.
I am not ignorant of racism in China, I have already described what form it comes in. You have a chauvinistic view based on a lack of understanding and investigation.
Because you’re certainly wrong. Waste of time comment.
I am correct, actually. But you are behaving quite childishly, letting anyone still reading clock the insecurity.
Exactly. If you are financially stable and can fit within what is considered socially acceptable then it’s a great place to live.
China is a great place no matter your financial status :) You can survive on a lot less than the west. What is socially acceptable in someways in more open than the west too but in others less.
Great place to live and such great people
Its worth noting I mean as an immigrant who is not ethnically Chinese. It’s a tough place to adapt to if you aren’t financially stable. Do note that my knowledge comes from the experience of people from Australia.
I deeply agree with the community aspect. I can see how my original post came off as self-centered, but it’s always been my vision to be an active contributor to the local and larger communities of wherever I live. I am generally a pro-social person and do my best to help my local community. I definitely agree that building a strong community is vital to the criteria I’m looking for. It’s just that my current community feels largely like a lost cause. We certainly have a subculture that is what I’m looking for, but it’s just that - a subculture. And while that may be comforting and nice, it’s not enough to get politicians to listen.
I try to stave off the harms of capitalism as best I can while also balancing my own happiness for my limited time on Earth. But that’s a topic I’m sure we could both write essays about, so maybe best to save that for another time.
Sounds good!
Come to Canada, the weed is legal
Canada is certainly tempting if only on the basis that I would be closer to my family, and my family closer to me. And the recent election results were very relieving. Weed is legal here too though, haha.
the election results are much closer than you’d think. Popular vote had only a couple % lead. Everyone had to abandon voting for their preferred small party (e.g. greens, BQ, or NDP) to get liberals enough seats to beat the conservatives.
Yeah we’re far from perfect, but for better or worse we would be the smallest culture shock (it would kinda feel like moving to a new state).
afghanistan
The Netherlands, Germany and Scandinavia have all those things and people tend to speak English really well.
As for the ‘No racism’ part, skip the Netherlands. One of the current governing parties is openly racist and can even be considered fascist. Also, we have a huge housing crisis, so finding a place to live may be challenging.
European racism is casual compared to even everyday American racism, even considering the likes of AfD
I agree. The difference is that we are not so polarized (yet, we are getting there) and it’s not systemically embedded in the police force (yet, depends where you look)
Yes, I’ve had this suspicion awhile. Last year an ex-coworkerif mine was quoting the disproportionate crime rate among black people statistics at me and then leveled up into saying Africa is such a desolate place and so only unintelligent people would have stayed there in ancient times, thus meaning there’s a selective breeding for unintelligence in that continent. I tried to argue with him about the dubiousness of IQ measures in the first place, let alone IQ heritability, and the deep statistical flaws in the crime rate argument, which don’t disentangle race from poverty, but as soon as I tried to make these counterarguments he brushed me off as being “brainwashed” by “lies about equality”.
I don’t even know what to do about something like that other than just stop talking to the person. What’s terrifying is he’s otherwise pretty smart, totally fits in with respectable society. Not some stereotypical redneck racist type. I think about that a lot and wonder how many others like him are going totally undetected around me every day.
Yeah, racism in europe is largely stereotypes directed at whole groups that are rooted in truth but grossly overblown, eg “black people just want to commit crime”, “arabs want to install sharia”, “east asians want to eat your dog”, “indians want to outgrow the native population” and other nonsense.
If you ask the huge majority of the people who are saying these things if they interact with people in these groups, they’ll say “yes, but they’re some of the good ones” not realising it’s only a tiny fraction who aren’t, but also accepting that race doesn’t automatically make you anything.
Comparing that to the US where (from what I’m aware of) there’s both “I refuse to even speak to members of xyz race because they’re subhuman” and “xyz race needs all the help they can get because they have such a tough time” it seems so hard for individuals to just live a normal life in the US?
Thanks for this counterpoint, that’s exactly the sort of thing I think people need to see when thinking about moving (whether emigrating from America or anywhere else) - what’s the big problems for people there, what’s their equivalent of these problems. Would you mind telling me which party this is so I can do some more research on it?
The party is called the PVV. Their racism is mostly aimed at Muslims, but they’re not a big fan of most other groups of immigrants either. Highly educated expats with a work visa largely get a pass, though I think there are some plans to limit their benefits.
It certainly seems that way! Some of the ESL speakers I’ve met from Europe are more articulate than native speakers that I work with. What I most wonder about is the prevalence of English in the workplace. I think I’d feel guilty using English at work in country with its own different official language, unless it was really like, standard even before “the guy from America” joined the team, lol.
There are some large, internationally oriented companies where you can get by speaking only English. I’ve also seen more than one tech company hire programmers that don’t speak Dutch. So it depends on the industry.
If you want to get some perspectives from Americans living in the Netherlands, you could check out Itz Sky’s and Jordan Green’s channels on YouTube.
I wouldn’t rely on Germany to remain stable and democratic these days. The fascists are the strongest party and the new chancellor is an oligarchy stooge of the worst kind.
Things aren’t much better in The Netherlands. The PVV is part of the government now. The good news is that having to form a coalition with other parties, seems to have reigned in some of their worst tendencies. Also, their minister of immigration is a total nitwit that can’t get any sort of actual policy implemented. If they keep failing to make any kind of progress on this issue, hopefully they won’t do as well in the next election.
You should instead put energy into your environment and community to make positive changes in your area.
Yes, I’ve thought about this a lot and do make efforts to improve my environment. But it’s disheartening, the vast majority of people in my community are extreme Trump supporters. I know people who threw parties to celebrate the renaming of the Gulf of Mexico. It’s hard to know how to improve my community in light of that, and in fact it’s hard to even want to.
But I am open to suggestions, what do you think are some of the best things I could do to improve my area?
i’'m tired of people complaining about bigoted america and “how i want to move to liberal europe”. move that lazy ass and topple that idiot in the white house and the system that makes him possible (yes, that means ditching the democrat party too).
My kid would like to still have a dad. One who is, ideally, not in prison or dead.
This would be great, but the hard truth is this will get you executed in the street, and this country is no longer worth dying for.
It may reach a boiling point eventually, but for now, given the choice, I think I’d prefer to move house than be murdered by my own military.
I wish I can even afford to move out of the country in the first place
Fix your own damn country. You actually have power to fix it over there. The rest of the world doesn’t.
Telling the passengers of the Titanic to grab a bucket after it snapped in half is not as helpful as you might think.
No words truer than this
No. Absolutely not. The ship ain’t sinking. It’s being hijacked.
No! What the fuck kind of defeatist analogy is this?
THEY are the captain of their ship, but it’s being hijacked. It’s up to them to regain control over it.
Bro just let’s his hands down saying “what do you want me to do?” Fucking fight! Organize protests. Go to town halls and yell at them. Run them the fuck out of building. Others have done it.
The French do it all the time. Are you saying you’re not as capable as those you call “cheese eating surrender monkeys”? You keep making fun of them, but if you don’t act, they’ll be making fun of you.
…the fuck are you talking about? The majority of US voters wanted this shitstorm. This isn’t like two people oppressing the country - the problem is that the majority of us land somewhere on the spectrum between stupid and evil, and that’s a MUCH larger problem than just Trump.
Protests in the US have lost their teeth ever since the civil rights movement. Nowadays we don’t have the Black Panthers standing by with rifles to enforce the efficacy of broader non-violent side of the movement; and so long as they remain nonviolent, they’ll continue to be ignored. We protest all the time - it doesn’t accomplish shit here.
The French do it all the time. Are you saying you’re not as capable as those you call “cheese eating surrender monkeys”? You keep making fun of them, but if you don’t act, they’ll be making fun of you.
Again, what the actual fuck are you talking about? I haven’t made fun of the French a single time. 100% we’re not as capable as the French - the French are absolute badasses who respond to oppression by literally making heads roll. That’s why protests there work - the ruling class knows what happens next if they ignore the protests. And cheese is fucking delicious. I’d love if we emulated the French - we should start with the guillotines and end with fondue.
That’s the thing… NOT the majority elected him. A lot of people abstained from voting because they didn’t like Kamala. The majority didn’t vote for Trump.
Besides, even those who voted for Trump have remorse.
As for the black panthers, you can still form local armed militias to protect protesters. This is a second amendment right. I’d love to see the republicans go against that.
Well, I specified the majority of voters for a reason. When a third of population looks at the possibility of someone as evil as Trump taking power, and are so unmoved by that possibility that they can’t even be bothered to so much as color in a quarter-inch rectangle in opposition to it, that’s a fucking problem.
Militias to protect protesters is one thing; militias to enforce the demands being made by the protesters is what we need.
Look at current events here: we’ve got the 50501 protests happening nationwide and frequently - nothing changes. There were protests constantly during Trump’s first go at raping the Constitution - nothing changed. There were protests against Biden and Harris over their support for the genocide on Gaza - nothing changed. This has been a recurring theme for the almost 4 decades I’ve been stuck in this fucking dumpster fire.
You know what did get shit done? Luigi put three bullets into a malicious healthcare CEO’s back, and we immediately saw some reform (nothing huge, but some). Teslas and Tesla dealerships started getting burned to the ground, and now (supposedly - hasn’t happened yet) Elon is backing down from his role as chief Nazi. The republicans carried out a literal insurrection; they now control the presidency, Congress, and the Judiciary. Any semblance of checks and balances, and they just arrest the judge.
Point being: good or bad, violence is the only thing that works here. We’ve dipped our toes into it, but we haven’t gone full guillotine, which is what desperately needs to happen. Protests aren’t going to accomplish shit until the ruling class has a healthy fear for what happens when the protesters’ demands are ignored.
Point being: good or bad, violence is the only thing that works here. We’ve dipped our toes into it, but we haven’t gone full guillotine, which is what desperately needs to happen. Protests aren’t going to accomplish shit until the ruling class has a healthy fear for what happens when the protesters’ demands are ignored.
You know what? I motherfuckin’ agree with you 1 000% on this.
Judging by your post history, it looks like I agree with you on nearly everything, except apparently when it comes to splitting hairs over how much faith we have in the average American to actually get up and get their hands dirty to take our country back.
…and honestly, I’m a little jealous of that optimism. The past decade has made me cynical as fuck. You’re right to call me out for defeatism. This all seems so fucking hopeless to me, but I really ought to keep that shit to myself - not like I’d be doing anyone a favor by ‘winning’ them over.
I would certainly rather fix this one than leave, but it’s pretty dismal. There are already large protests, almost nobody is satisfied with how things are, yet nothing changes. Our elected officials don’t listen to us, even on the off chance that one I like gets elected in my area. The best I can hope for is that someone will run who will just keep things as bad as they are, nobody ever actually improves things. I’ve never had an opportunity to vote for a candidate that actually represents my interests. I live in one of the most far right places in the country.
I really would like to fix it here. But I am very unsure as to how. There’s lots of community togetherness types of opportunities, but unfortunately having friends with like minds does no good when anyone with power doesn’t listen. And now even protesting, no, even just showing up to a political event on “the wrong side” is terrifying because of the effectiveness of mass surveillance and the complete lack of oversight on our police. I am open to specific suggestions on how to fix it.
Reading the list, NZ does pretty well… Right to the end…
- good treatment of mentally ill, homeless and impoverished people…
We don’t do that here
I heard people say Australia and New Zealand outright bans the physically and mentally disabled from obtaining citizenship. How true is that?
Nothing about it in the official checks but there may be biases against various disabilities.
This may be anecdotal but I visited Christchurch NZ last year and walked around the whole city. I don’t believe I saw a single person begging / sleeping on the street.
Compared to my small rust belt city in the US where there’s homeless at every busy intersection begging and pop-up tent settlements that will frequently be destroyed by cops. Bigger cities and/or the West Coast ones like Portland have way more of this type of thing.
Mental health care in NZ is abysmal.
I’m not sure about Christchurch, but my small town of 25k people, has people begging. Homelessness in bigger centres is visible.
We do try to help, but it’s getting worse.
- good treatment of mentally ill, homeless and impoverished people…
It’s important to consider trends and trajectories, while countries like Ireland and whatnot may appear to satisfy a lot of these, they are also struggling with the same decaying Capitalist system and are being dragged down by US decay as well. Countries like China that are improving rapidly might be more worth considering.
China would get a -100/10 for privacy though.
About the same score as any Western country. Privacy isn’t really respected anywhere unless you force it yourself, too much money in big data.
In China it’s illegal to be private though. Skynet, the surveillance system is always watching you when your in public. You have to use phones thay are regulated by the government and you can’t have access to websites thay aren’t whitlisted by the government unless you use a vpn which as far as I know is illegal in China.
Western countries have similar levels of surveilance and regulation. The firewall and VPN bit is true, but that’s not for privacy so much as it is the desire to build up their own internet that can’t be dominated by the US. They are very wary of how western countries used propaganda to destabilize the USSR with outlets like Radio Free Europe.
I agree.
You called America your home. There is something to be said for home improvement. I’m fortunate to be dual citizen, so I could leave whenever I want. I choose not to because it is where my parents, my sister and her kids are. I’ll stay here and make whatever improvements, however small they are, as long as my folks still live here.
Yes, I wouldn’t be renouncing U.S citizenship unless I really had to. I’ve stayed this long precisely because I don’t want to leave the “problem spot” and cause it to only have extremists left over living here. I do try to support events and businesses that support causes I agree with, but that’s about all there is to do as far as I can see. As I said in other comments, I would truly prefer to fix things here, as I like many things about my life here. But it’s starting to feel like I’m complicit in something wrong by remaining a resident and I’m not sure what to do about it.
Spain is kind of nice, based on your list. I’ve been considering it.
Same here. UK is done for.
Thanks, for some reason Spain has never been near the top of my consideration. I suppose that’s because it’s not one of those classic “top ten” type of countries that seem to always be at the top of lists of good things. But it seems the margins of improvement are slim between top 30 and top 10, so I’ll have to look more into that.
I often recommend Spain for US emigrants, quality of life and cultural norms are similar, and Spanish is easier to pick up when you’ve heard it as much as you do from US media.
Netherlands and Scandies have a great reputation, but there’s significant culture shock and you risk feeling more alienated for longer.
Was personally worked from Spain for half a year last winter and in my experience it is nice, but I found it harder to mingle with the Spanish at times. Their English was not amazing and it seems they have a tight knit community, with which I mean if you are not family it’s hard to get in.
I personally would consider Portugal more. I have a few very nice Portuguese colleagues which maybe helps because they show us around when we’re there, but in general I found it easier to connect to people there. And apart from the climate (Portugal can be very wet and a little bit cooler because of the ocean), they have all the good things Spain has (food, drink, a more laid back way of celebrating live). And they have pasteis de nata, which is a reason to live there in itself.
Just be careful with eating francesinha during lunch.
Spain vs Portugal is a tough one… Spain has better protections on paper but the people can be more vocal when opposing something they don´t like. Portuguese, in general, are far more amicable and genuine, specially outside the too touristic areas, but prospective for jobs to foreigners is slim outside the two main cities. Yes, Portuguese are far more amicable than Spaniards, but, like I mentioned in other post, the test is put when circumstance change, with the flock of foreigners buying property in Lisbon an Porto, they are far less welcoming there now too. For the long term, Spain, has a better track record, if you ask me.
Consider your education and professional background and how well you’ll integrate in the workforce of whatever countries you’re looking at. Look into general unemployment rates as well as for your specific area of expertise. Can you work remotely?
Toronto and Vancouver are expensive but you definitely get what you pay for
Honestly I don’t get what the hype with Toronto is. It costs like Vancouver but with Calgary’s weather and general vibes.
Toronto is amazing. It’s a lot like NYC but clean, better run, and less densely populated. My friend describes it as NYC run by the Swiss, and I’ve loved all the time I’ve spent there
The weather can be hit or miss, but it didn’t bother me, even with the endless snow. I’m moving there soon and I’m super excited for it.
Best of luck!
Good transit, good jobs, lots of cultural stuff, amazing food. The weather definitely isn’t great but it’s still consistently a few degrees warmer than Calgary in the winter. Vancouver obviously crushes both of them in this category.
Yeah, similar weather relatively speaking.
I’ve never been to Toronto, so I can’t talk too much trash, but I have been to Vancouver many times and experienced how awesome it is. And, they both cost a similar amount!
Ireland ticks most of your boxes. If any of your grandparents are Irish you can get dual citizenship. English speaking and lots of cultural crossover etc.
Closer for trips back too. Think it’s only a 5 hour flight to New York for example.
Just maybe don’t practice your Cockney accent while there… The locals seem to hate that accent, for some reason.
