Feddit.org announced today that they are changing their rules to match German law despite their server not being hosted in Germany.
Feddit.org now bans
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The sentence “From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”
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Comparing Israel to the Nazis
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Calls to end Zionism
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Calling for the dissolution of Israel
And much more. The full original post can be found here, or
Click here for full text of original post:
Hi.
In the past few days, discontent regarding mod decisions in this community has been brewing, particularly when it comes to comments on Palestine, Israel, and Israeli politics and actions. There are also misunderstandings regarding mod intention and German law. We hope to clear that up with this post.
While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany. Speaking of, our server admins have also posted a write-up on the same topic.
And with that, let’s go:
In Germany, antisemitism is specifically sanctioned in German criminal law, both for speech and as a motivation for other criminal behavior. In addition, Germany seeks to protect the Jewish state of Israel (the so-called “Reason of State” introduced in 2008) and thus verges toward protecting Zionism as well. Certain criticism of Israel/Israelis is also categorized as “Israel-related antisemitism”.
Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations. After such police action, it does not really matter if it was appropriate or if cases are dropped or never charged: The damage is done. All told, it’s not that fun.
There is also no point in engaging in discussions about the veracity of statements that could get us into legal trouble. In addition, we believe that you can express most opinions without breaking rules.
If your comment contains the following, it will be removed from this community:
- Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
- Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
- Equating Israeli actions and (historical) Nazism.
- The slogan “from the river…”
- Endorsement of or justifications for Hamas or Hezbollah, or slogans or graphics positively referring to these organizations. These are considered terrorist organizations in Germany.
- … and obviously: Any of the common antisemitic tropes or calls to violence against Jews or Israelis
Comments will not be removed for the following:
- Denouncing genocide.
- Denouncing Israeli war crimes.
- Criticizing Zionism as an ideology or political movement.
- Referring to the current Israeli government as “criminal,” “expansionist,” or “far-right”.
If your comment is removed nonetheless, these are not the reason. I’d also like to stress that this community was never a free-speech-absolutist zone: It is a (usually lightly) moderated community. There may also be times when bans go too far. In such cases, please DM the @EuroMod@feddit.org account (which all mods have access to).
To help you understand why, I'll leave an assortment of sources here (translations via DeepL).
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Berlin in mid-May [2024] around 6 o’clock in the morning. A loud, continuous “banging” against the apartment door wakes student Alina T. from her sleep. […] When her husband opens the door, several LKA officers, two employees of the district office and the SEK “storm” past him into the apartment. Puzzled, he looks at the search warrant. […] The background to this was a Facebook entry in the student’s profile: "From the river […]
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In November 2023, the Federal Ministry of the Interior and for Home Affairs also issued a prohibition order against Hamas.[60] According to the order, “the slogan ‘From the River to the Sea’ (in German or other languages)” is a distinguishing mark of Hamas[61]. […] the current legal situation [regarding “Denial of Israel’s right to exist”] is - contrary to what the statements of the Federal Ministry of Justice suggest[63] - anything but clear. Whether incitements to eliminate the State of Israel are prosecuted depends on the respective legal opinion and the prosecution will of the respective public prosecutor’s office.
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Press release from the previous government:
In this context, Section 111 StGB, which covers public incitement to commit crimes, may also be relevant. Incitement to extinguish Israel’s existence by force may be punishable under this provision. The same applies to calls to publicly display the Hamas flag. If Hamas attacks are publicly cheered and celebrated, this may also be punishable. This means that people who cheer on Hamas’s actions or publicly express their sympathy with the attacks may constitute the criminal offence of “approval of criminal acts” under Section 140 of the German Criminal Code (StGB).
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In connection with the controversial Palestine Congress in Berlin, the German authorities have also imposed an entry ban on former Greek finance minister Yanis Varoufakis. “In order to prevent antisemitic and anti-Israel propaganda at the event”, several entry bans have been issued, the news agency AFP learned from security sources on Sunday. One of these concerned Varoufakis. (Notably, Varoufakis would have spoken about one-state solutions …)
federal reverse (on behalf of the mods of !europe)
Calling for the dissolution of Israel, or calling for a one-state solution without specifying equal rights for all people; Jewish in particular.
Calling for a destruction, annihilation, an end of all Zionism or the like.
Zionism means colonialism not just in practice, but from its very inception:
And yet every self-declared pro-Zionist I’ve talked to says Zionism is just the right of the state of Israel to exist, and so being anti-Zionist is being for the destruction of the state, and being for the destruction of the state is being for the death or dispossession of every person in the state.
I think the German state is probably more inclined to interpret discussion of Zionism the way the pro-Zionists I’ve spoken to have describe the term.
I think the historical description in the text that you link is accurate, but if you’re trying to argue that Germans should be able to critique Zionism however they want because of that, it’s like literally getting into an argument about the literal meaning of literally with people who use literally to mean figuratively, but instead of a random teenager or twee linguistic descriptivist, you are arguing with the state.
Who got the oldest artifacts in Palestine? Doesn’t seem colonizing if you have one of the earliest histories somewhere, right? That’s why Russia has a right to reclaim Ukraine /s
Serious mental gymnastics lol
Do Greeks get Constantinople, Marseille and Syracuse back?
Who has the oldest artifacts in the Americas? Or Australia?
Oh I fully support America and Australia controls should be handed back to the respective natives if in either situation they would have conflict about territory
Yes, and you are free to critizise Zionism for that on Feddit.org. The legal problem is not that, but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews as a shortcut and leave it to courts to decide later if that was justified or not.
They clearly state in one of the rules that I just linked, that calling for an end to zionism is a bannable offense.
The german state is full of witch-hunters and its people have learned nothing.
Yes and as I explained already there is a very specific legal reason for that, but this doesn’t mean you can’t critizise Zionism or call it a terrible settler-colonialist project.
As for learning from past mistakes… I think you of all people should not throw the first stone there 😅
there is a very specific legal reason for that
A misguided or intentionally malicious reason, for what the effect of that law is. Codifying into law the conflation of Judaism/ethnic Jewish identity with zionism is itself antisemitic. Calling for the end of Zionism isn’t the same as calling for the end of Jews or Judaism. What is the use of being allowed to criticize Zionism the ideology when you’re not also allowed to advocate for its end?
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology.” <- Ok “Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel as a Zionist project should be dissolved in favor of a single-state that provides equal rights for Palestinians” <- Not ok, somehow?
The law as written only allows abstract and dissociated critique of Zionism, but forbids any criticism that comes too close to threatening Israel’s existence as a ethno-nationalist state. That’s a huge problem.
I didn’t make those laws, and I agree that the German government should make more of a distinction between antisemitism and anti-zionism. But it doesn’t and honestly in your above example you could just say:
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”
An no one would object 🤷
This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.
“Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology, and Israel should become a state that provides equal rights for Palestinians”
Except the moderation rule feddit has implemented does not allow for this statement, unless you specifically say that jews deserve equal rights in a single-state solution - which is similar to those who respond to ‘black lives matter’ by saying ‘but all lives matter’. Saying ‘Palestinians deserve equal rights’ wouldn’t be necessary if equal rights were already afforded them, and the point of making that statement is to draw attention to the fact that they currently aren’t
This singular and persistent focus on the destruction of the (unfortunatly) already existing state of Israel, really makes it likely that many people rather use that as a dogwistle for antisemitism.
Nobody who is advocating for Palestinian liberation uses the word “destroy” or ‘destruction’ when referring to the dissolution of Israel - I only ever see those words used by people trying to make this inference between anti-zionism and antisemitism. The only people who take statements of liberation as a threat against Jews are people who are collaborating or benefiting from the oppression Israel conducts in their name.
Sorry, but you are misinterpreting that rule. What I said is perfectly compatible with the rule. The extension that this also applies to Jews is solely to preempt the common “equal rights and the Jews are free to leave” dogwistle.
And you are highly mistaken that there are no people advocating for the destruction of Israel, in fact it is quite common.
It’s so funny how you types are constantly hiding behind the law and saying, “I didn’t make the law, I don’t agree with it, but they have to do this to avoid legal liability, hands are tied” and then five seconds later you say stuff like, “criticism of Israel is a dogwhistle for antisemitism.”
You’re a coward, refusing to admit your real positions because you know you can’t defend them.
Please don’t put words in my mouth. My real position is crystal clear and I am happy to stand by it.
but that the German authorities don’t play word games and tend to equate Zionism/Israel/Jews
Sounds like they very much do play word games then.
Oh I see. Which is why the admins/mods of Feddit.org are also publicly coming out criticizing the German government for this crackdown on nuanced speech, right? Right?
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It’s wild how lies and propaganda spread in real time.
Germany has a very binary view on class supremacism. It’s not supremacism is good vs bad. It’s a pendulum of who is above criticism. Russophobic nazi supremacism still kosher though.
Russophobic nazi supremacism still kosher though.
I’ve noticed that pro-Israel Germans are usually not that much against Russia.
Not from what I’ve seen at all. The people who insist on calling Palestinians (and any Arab people who oppose Zionism) “terrorists” are often the same people frothing at the mouth about how we have to smash the Russian “orcs.” Granted, this isn’t limited only to Germans, but I’ve definitely seen it specifically from them as well.
Worse is better. You need to have all sorts of delusions existent in the society, for the immunity to be preserved.
Honestly I’ve had different experience, too much Russia-sympathy from Germans. But maybe that just came out of fashion.
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Trust a dronie to start whining about Russia and “tankies” in a thread about the genocide of Gaza.
Trust a “dronie” to protect their homeland!
Edit to add: your boos mean nothing. You can’t support Russia and Palestine. You’re obviously paid by someone, and/or misguided.
Edit to add: I’m not deleting shit but have a group coming at me. 😉
Edit #2: every negative number I get from you pricks is a positive in my book! Keep bringing it on you lonely pieces of shit!
“Protecting your homeland” by whining about Russia and “tankies” in a thread about the genocide of Gaza.
You’re the one protecting an eastern equivalent to Israel.
Edit: love that I got under your skin asshole. Have fun with the cognitive dissonance you experience daily.
Edit 2: it feels validating every time you ass holes down doot me! Please keep it coming!
???
least incoherent dronie.
So you’re a fan of the incursion into Ukraine? Good to know where you stand.
Edit: love that I got under your skin asshole.
I love that you’re banned for your comments, let me carry that feeling forward by user blocking you. bu-bye now.
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fuck the banderites
fuck the pissraelis
fuck fascists of whatever country
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Yep if you have Russian blood in you you’re guilty of all crimes of its government, even if you’re against Putin.
It’s so cool and not at all xenophobic.
I want you to take notice and how I said “Russia” not “Russians”. The state aren’t the individual people. But good job with following the hive mind. So proud of you.
The hivemind of “I don’t think everyone in Russia is inherently guilty of all crimes by Putin?”
Alright let’s just arrest everyone in Russia. They’re all guilty. Especially the children and people in jail for protesting.
You are making shit up lol
Also, many Russians support what Russia is doing in Ukraine the same way majority of Israeli Jews support the genocide…
But have you thought about the population doing he oppression mate
🤡
I’m sure a non-zero amount support it, but it’s like thinking that everyone in America is guilty of the invasion of Iraq.
If there is a Israel citizen who is against the Genocide, I don’t want them considered guilty. I think they should be doing as much as they can against it, and being neutral to it is complicity. But if they’re against the genocide, they aren’t guilty.
I’m also unsure of the rates of support for the War on Ukraine in Russia, but I doubt it’s 100%. Even if it’s 99%, that 1% can’t be considered guilty as charged for.
I don’t consider think that being a citizen of a nation instantly makes you guilty. But I also acknowledge that they can benefit from how their nation acts on the world stage.
My nation benefited from the Iraq invasion, but I was 6 years old when we did it. I didn’t even know what war really was then.
Thank you one sane, non-kneejerk response. I appreciate you.
And for the late hivemind, I got a comment history full of not being a prick like the dude that responded to me.
Bro, again. You’re acting like the person insulting me, assumed I was. Please grab some nuance. The individual citizens are not as a whole responsible for state actions. Despite it the majority of the populace is in favor, you cannot blame them as a whole.
But why do that when we can do collective punishment, which is done by Russia, Israel, North Korea, and all the famous Good Nations?
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So basically just knockoff reddit then?
It says it in the name. Reddit but for and by the feds.
I don’t think you get banned for upvoting Luigi here yet
Yet.
That and .world every time someone suggests that genocide is bad.
both are regime fronts on fedi.
It amazing to see how organic opinion is against them and without centralized social media they can’t suppress this sentiment.
Makes you wonder how often public opinions get subverted by these regime whore shills.
I doubt Lemmy has any major effect on public option at large. Reddit never did when they supported Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders, at the height of its user count/activity.
But I don’t doubt that Lemmy enables echo chambers and filter bubbles that enable people to brush aside any criticism of their favorite politician or nation-state as The Good Guys.
I understood the comment above to be comparing how public opinion is allowed to shape itself in the fediverse, vs being censored and molded to only fit particular permitted messages in mainstream social media. We can express ourselves without worrying that we’ll get locked out of the entire fediverse for stating an opinion that mods or admins don’t like. Which makes it fair to wonder how much suppression is going on elsewhere, that we don’t see and never hear reports on, because censorship.
I’m not sure where the idea of Lemmy having an effect on public opinion at large came from. It feels like a non-sequitur, but maybe I’m just too tired and I missed something.
Lemmy is the most ML oriented community I’ve been in… Well, it literally has been created by ML
Oh for sure, I don’t doubt that.
But I don’t think Lemmy has any impact beyond maybe one person somewhere changing their opinion on a company.
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Caught a perma ban there for calling german oligarchs being heavy on Nazi nepo babies
That server has censorship that’s more clown than lemmy.world.
German regime front on Lemmy… Lol
People should vote with their feet.
These clowns should not host pan EU communities, let them circle jerk Zionism in an echo chamber 🤡
1984
Fucking Germany
German Guilt Pride is a hell of a drug. Hiding behind ‘laws’ to justify this is also very on brand.
Guilt Pride
Thank you for this term.
Wtf is feddit
When you’re so anti-Nazi that you loop around and become pro Reverse-Nazi.
What lack of theory does to a mfer.
Western Germany never de-Nazified, the Nazis teamed up with the Zionists even when the Nazis were in power. They left the Nazis as they were effective anti-Communists, and the West collectively felt that was a worthwhile trade. Germany pays lip service to combatting fighting the Nazis, but keeps the underlying fascism the West in general has.
While the servers of feddit.org are in Austria, most of the mods of this community as well as admins of this server live in Germany… Since criminal law is involved, enforcement can mean things like police raids and device confiscations.
Lol, they’re trying to pretend that the cops will kick down their doors if someone says “free Palestine” on a server they’re mods of.
I live in Germany, and it’s a totally realistic scenario, especially in Bavaria. They seize computers to intimidate digital activists all the time for way less serious topics.
Have they ever raided someone just for being the admin on a social media site?
social media site specifically I don’t know, but raids for managing infrastructure for completely legal but politically inconvenient activities, yes, plenty. I remember going to a talk from a guy managing the servers of Extinction Rebellion and he got all his stuff seized, never got accused of anything, had to wait months to get his stuff back and never got back a few things.
Source?
And that’s very different to just being an admin on a social media site that doesn’t ruthlessly enforce German law.
So here’s an article about a raid on an environmentalist group in Germany called Last Generation: https://earth.org/last-generation-activists/
There’s a link to the German language statement from the police which is quite readable after translation, and of course the article itself describes the general activities that they were engaged in and accused of.
Of the activities that they were accused of, it does seem in line with prior environmental activist groups like Extinction Rebellion, Greenpeace, and Earth First!
As for what laws get enforced by a website, that is going to depend on jurisdiction. For example, the USA has section 230 of the DMCA, which holds that website operators are not responsible for user content with the exception of content accused of violating copyright within certain parameters. Doesn’t mean they won’t raid your servers, just means you won’t be held legally responsible if they think you were sufficiently responsive to issues when raised.
At this time I don’t know the specifics of what Germans have to think about to avoid state interference, but it does look like it is more severe than what the US has to do with.
So not a source for the claim.
So if that’s not the case, that does mean Germany is not fascist? Or are they fascist and is their policy justified?
You’re not keeping up with the news from Germany then I take it.
I know that they’re repressing opposition to Israel, but I have not heard of them arresting someone just for being a moderator on a website that doesn’t follow German law.
The moderators less likely, but the server admins quite likely, as those are legally responsible for the publication. Where the server is physically located is actually of lesser relevance in that regard.
German police gonna arrest Austrian based admins?
The admins responsible for the Lemmy instance AFAIK live in Germany.
Is their any precedent for social media admins being arrested for comments on the site the administrate?
There are precedences of public forum admins having their homes raided by police and all communication devices confiscated, yes.
Source?
Literally in the original post linked above.
Or here for example: https://netzpolitik.org/2023/linkhaftung-scharfe-kritik-an-razzia-bei-freiburger-radiosender/
I was banned today from !Europe on feddit, a community I’ve never posted in, because apparently reporting a disinformation spam account posting uyghur genocide fake news rubs the mods the wrong way. I had no idea that instance was this much of a dumpster fire. Am I officially a communist now? Seems like a rite of passage has occurred
Death to Germany
The country or the inhabitants?
Germany is a country. Germans are its inhabitants.
Yea, so which
Death to Germany
So where do the Germans go?
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Why would they have to “go” anywhere?
What would you do with them if you don’t relocate?
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They can be resettled in Libya with the Gazans.
Where do the Israelis go?
They dont “go” anywhere. The people in that physical location form a new, better government thats not bought out by foreign interests.
any other obvious stuff I can give you the minute details on? Do you need a diagram of how to use the toilet? Lend me some of your crayons and I’ll diagram it out for you. Thats why we are all here, to give you painfully obvious answers to boneheaded questions.
I wonder if “Jews and non-Jews can’t live together, and thus Jews must be exiled to Israel” will be allowed…
